Burnout and Neurodiversity

[00:00:20] Speaker A: I don't think we can sigh to start the episode. [00:00:25] Speaker B: Welcome to the but why Podcast, where we explore the human experience through a psychological lens by asking, but why? I'm Dr. Christian. [00:00:34] Speaker A: And I'm Dr. Laura. And today we are exploring neurodiverse experiences of burnout. And this, of course, like, follows on from our last episode, which was on Burnout, kind of in general. So for those of you who are tuning in right now but haven't listened to our previous burnout episode, we suggest that you maybe go back and have a little listen. But if you just want to stay with us here and you're not bothered about the previous episode, then we'll give you a bit of a definition. So here we're kind of, I guess, defining burnout as a state of kind of physical, emotional, mental exhaustion, like, caused by prolonged or excessive stress. And it arises when someone feels overwhelmed, emotionally drained, or unable to meet constant demands of simply being alive. So this might be from work, caregiving and other responsibilities. And over time, it can really impact our physical and mental wellbeing and productivity and so on. But today we're going to be talking about experiences of burnout for people who are neurodiverse. But before we go into that, Kristin, I don't know if there's anything you want to say, like, update the sun. [00:01:55] Speaker B: Yeah, I know. Like, we have to fit in our little small talk. We didn't plan on small talk today. [00:02:01] Speaker A: I was like, I just went straight into it. Like, people are gonna be like, what's happened? Why have we not tangented for 20 minutes? [00:02:07] Speaker B: I mean, we'll have many tangents, I'm sure to everyone who's, like, wondering if you're listening. I sound like I'm a chain smoker. We are recording two episodes today because I had to cancel Monday because I had no voice. And today's the best it's been in about a week. And then also, if you can see my face, I had microneedling done on Tuesday. So if I look like a peeling lizard, that's also why. So I'm thriving. And maybe I am starting to get a little bit burnt out because I feel like my executive dysfunction, executive function, which actually, I'll just give you all that definition, definition right now. So executive dysfunction, this is like a disruption to the kind of, like, overall efficacy, so how your. Your executive functions work. So this is your group of cognitive processes, you know, that they regulate. They control all of your cognitive processes. So, like behavioral expression, memory, just like really basic human skills, like processing, transitioning between Tasks and things like that gets very disrupted and I feel like that was me this morning because I have my water bottle yesterday with me in my office and I'm so routine. I walk in and out with my water bottle, my phone and, like my coffee cup every single time did the same yesterday. And I literally, before I came in here, just spent the last, like 15 minutes wandering around my house looking for my water bottle and I can't remember where it is and I'm just like wandering around aimlessly. There's only so many places it can go and I'm looking all confused. Then I came into my office, forgot my headphones, went back out, started looking for my water bottle again, forgot to bring my headphones in. It's just been one of those mornings where my executive function is not functioning. Ain't no function here. [00:04:01] Speaker A: I feel you on that. I think for the last few weeks for me have been some of the most, like, work intensive. And that's really been, like, impacting on, I don't know, I guess my ability to, like, function. But I feel like at the moment it's. I'm at that point where I know I have loads to do. So when was, like, forcing myself to do. But it's probably not in the most, like, efficient way. But I also have that, like, classic thing where I know it's fine. Like in the morning when I get up and I'm in the kitchen and it's a complete tip because it always is. And I'm like, okay, I need to clean this thing up. So I'm cleaning that thing and then you see something else. I'm like, oh, I need to do that, or, oh, I need to do, do this. And I go round and round in like a circle. And then I'm like, what was I even doing in the first place? I haven't even done it yet. [00:04:46] Speaker B: Yes. So I live with a partner all the time, constantly. Yes, I know exactly what that looks like. [00:04:52] Speaker A: But sometimes, right. Sometimes it feels like I'm being really productive because I am, like, thinking. I feel like I'm thinking really fast, like, oh, there's this and now I need to do this. Now I need to do this, now I need to do that. But in reality, I've only actually done half of every task rather than finishing the entire task. [00:05:15] Speaker B: You know what I'm thinking, Laura? Yeah, I do. [00:05:19] Speaker A: Oh, well. [00:05:20] Speaker B: Oh, gosh. [00:05:23] Speaker A: Speaking of, I get. Get it from my mum. [00:05:26] Speaker B: Yeah, many do. Many do, yeah. Speaking of morning routines. My whole morning. Maybe this is why my executive function was so bad was spent avoiding people at my house because it was just one of those mornings that we have, like, the plumber coming. The farrier was coming, and thankfully Jack agreed to handle all of those things, but the plumber had to ferrier. Yeah. For the horses, you know, like, they. [00:05:54] Speaker A: What is a feria? [00:05:55] Speaker B: Oh, so it's like, you know when you go to the nail salon and get your nails done and they shorten your nails, it's like that for hooves, for horses. So, like, horses hooves are basically like the same material as our nails, obviously a lot stronger, but they grow similarly to our nails. And so you have to have somebody, like, shave them down so that they're, like a healthy. Otherwise they grow like. You know how people's nails get really long in growth. Hooves can do the same if they're not, you know, so. And some people have. We don't. But some people put, like, horseshoes on. You've seen horseshoes before? [00:06:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:32] Speaker B: That go on the hooves to protect them if they're, like, riding on cement or road surfaces and stuff like that, or if their hooves are just, like, not great quality. So, yeah, it's like. No, we don't. Because we don't really ride them on the road. And most of ours have pretty good hooves. It's usually. [00:06:49] Speaker A: I love how you say hooves. [00:06:52] Speaker B: How do. How would you say hooves? [00:06:54] Speaker A: I think I say, like, hoof. No, well, horses hoof. [00:07:00] Speaker B: That's. That's one, though. That's. That's singular plural. [00:07:03] Speaker A: So it'd be hooves. [00:07:04] Speaker B: Yeah, that sounds more British. Yeah. I'm trying to think of what, like, the farrier actually says. But anyway, like, standing there with a farrier for, like, 30 minutes, just standing there awkwardly with this guy, making small talk is physically painful to me. So Jack usually does that. But then he also booked the plumber for this morning without telling me. And so he was like, okay, I'll handle that too, because he just booked it and he forgot and didn't tell me. But then the plumber was, like, going all around our house and it was, like, early. So when it was when I was having my coffee, my morning human making coffee. And so I was just, like, bopping around to different rooms in the house, like, moving opposite side the house where the plumber was and trying to escape constantly. [00:07:51] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. I know that feeling. Yeah. [00:07:56] Speaker B: That was you when the person was there fixing your washing machine, wasn't it? [00:08:00] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. Yeah. And also, I also feel that even when. Right. If some. If we have the people coming to like, clean our windows. I feel like I can't. Like, if you're in the room that, like, they're cleaning the window in, I'm like, I need to move because they can, like, see me. Like, I need to get out of this room. [00:08:21] Speaker B: I'm exactly. [00:08:22] Speaker A: I don't know. It's so awkward. And then, like, in our kitchen, we have, like, quite big, like, bi. Folding doors. So, like. And there's no curtains, so there's, like, no escape. And then they're like. They're, like, trying to make a cup of tea. And I, like, feel so perceived. [00:08:39] Speaker B: That's what I was gonna say is that, like, just knowledge that you're perceived and you're like, okay, now I need to act a certain way. There was. Jack had got some, like, gardeners. We've got, like, these big vine thingies that are too heavy for our roof. And they. It's because I was so unprepared. I was just, like, folding some laundry in the bedroom, and somebody climbed up the ladder and started just, like. Just like, not even looking in the room, just started cutting stuff. And I was like. And they just slammed all the blinds right in their face. And I'm like, now they're going to think I'm even weirder. [00:09:12] Speaker A: Like, I always feel too bad if I, like, try and close the curtains. That's. Yeah, I'm just going to sneak away and hide in the corridor in my own house. [00:09:25] Speaker B: I do that sometimes if there's, like, a delivery person coming and I don't want to be involved. I just, like, go against the wall. [00:09:33] Speaker A: That's like, the worst thing if you get, like, a takeaway is like, who's going to answer the door? And I'm always like, I really don't want to answer. Like, I can't. I can't do it. Matt's like, but I'm in my pajamas and I'm like, oh, why did I get dressed appropriately? Like, now I have to answer the door. [00:09:48] Speaker B: That's the skill is never be dressed to see visitors. [00:09:52] Speaker A: Yes. Always be dressed inappropriately. Then you don't have to answer the door. [00:09:56] Speaker B: Exactly. I saw some, like, older woman online advice. Basically says, like, when somebody's at the door and you don't know what they want, always put a coat on or have a coat in your hand. So that depending on if you want to talk to them or not, you can say, oh, I just got home. Or, oh, I'm just on my way out. I'm in a rush. [00:10:14] Speaker A: Oh, that is a. That's A good idea. [00:10:17] Speaker B: Yeah. I've never done it. [00:10:19] Speaker A: That's a good idea. [00:10:20] Speaker B: Yeah. My wrestling bitch face usually does the trick, so. [00:10:23] Speaker A: Yeah. I also think it's interesting, though, that there's the need to have the coat. Like, it's not. You can't just say, I need to. I'm going out. You have to have the coat as evidence, otherwise it doesn't work. [00:10:35] Speaker B: True. Yeah. Like, what if it's the summer and it's really hot? You just look crazy. [00:10:39] Speaker A: Yes. [00:10:40] Speaker B: You can't just say, no, I'm not in the mood. [00:10:43] Speaker A: Yeah. No. [00:10:43] Speaker B: I have had, though, like, you just. It is comes back down to that performance, whether it's, like, gender or social performances. And I guess relating to our episode today, like, that autistic need for, like, physical boundaries and stuff like that I did have once a few years ago, like, a good friend basically say, like, I just, like, I don't understand why you never, like, we haven't seen each other for. And this was a guy. Like, we haven't seen each other for, like, six months. And you never want to give me a hug. And it's just like, I feel like you don't like me. I'm like, no, I don't like hugs. I feel like I can connect with you over way more meaningful things than touching our shoulders together and having this horrible, awkward experience. It's terrible. [00:11:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:26] Speaker B: And I was just like, why do you. Why does that, like, the prescribed social thing that you're supposed to do so weird. [00:11:33] Speaker A: It is, isn't it? I always find that, like, I think I am. I feel like I'm a hugger of specific people. [00:11:41] Speaker B: Yes, exactly. But that goes down to consent. [00:11:45] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. But then with a few people, and especially with, like, actually with, like, quite a few of, like, Matt's friends, like, I feel like I've known them for so long, but I'm not sure if a hug is appropriate. So I kind of just awkwardly stand there and I'm like, I don't really know what to do. And I just, like, stand there and wave and stand. And I think that's fine, but who knows? [00:12:07] Speaker B: It's that. That makes me kind of think of after my presentation at Basie's. So I did a presentation last. Was it two weeks ago now at a conference. British association of Sport and Exercise Sciences. Oh, that's a mouthful. When you can't speak on, like, working as an autistic sport and exercise psych. And I finished my presentation and, like, all the questions were over. And, you know, Amy, who is the moderator of it was like, okay, Kristen, that was awesome. Thanks. And I didn't know what to do, like, how to leave, so I just did, like, really awkward double thumbs up like this. Oh, my God. What are these? [00:12:49] Speaker A: That was so appropriate. [00:12:53] Speaker B: For people. People that are just listening and not watching. Fireworks just happened behind me. Why is this happening? Let me try again. It didn't happen again. Oh, it did happen again. [00:13:03] Speaker A: Oh, there you go. Oh, my gosh. That's so. [00:13:05] Speaker B: I wonder. [00:13:06] Speaker A: Well, the person commented back, didn't they, to your Twitter post when last time balloons came up and they said it was something to do with Apple. Didn't I think. [00:13:14] Speaker B: Oh, really? I didn't actually. [00:13:16] Speaker A: I think they said it was something to do with Apple Mac settings that you can turn off. [00:13:21] Speaker B: I don't think I want to. No. [00:13:24] Speaker A: But I really. I don't get fired. [00:13:25] Speaker B: I really like you for doing that, though. It's not working. [00:13:31] Speaker A: Oh, really? [00:13:32] Speaker B: Weird. [00:13:33] Speaker A: Yeah. Apple. [00:13:35] Speaker B: Speaking of tangents. [00:13:37] Speaker A: Okay. Yes. So what's happening? Where are we? [00:13:40] Speaker B: So I suppose, you know, what, 13 minutes. And we've also done a little mini introduction, so I'm pretty proud of us. [00:13:46] Speaker A: That is. That is good. Good effort. [00:13:48] Speaker B: Yeah. On the. On a Friday when we're. We're not functioning properly. Great. So before we get started talking about neurodiverse burnout, there's a few terms I want to define upfront and just want to preempt this by saying, like, we're not giving purely academic definitions. A lot of this is also influenced by, you know, the relative neurodiverse, in this case autism and ADHD communities, because, you know, historically the medical diagnostic kind of more deficit criteria more explains symptoms of overwhelm and burnout and rather than like actual traits themselves. So. And these aren't perfect definitions. They're just to kind of give people a good idea of things. So there's a few different conceptualizations of this, and they vary in their alignment to kind of more social or political or medical models, depending on what you're looking at. But overall, it's how we kind of value and really celebrate the neurodiversity as a kind of typical difference in your kind of brains rather than. It's. It's a natural variation of neurotype rather than like something that is wrong with you. So it's basically. So I think it's the range is like autism, adhd, dyslexia, dyscalcul. I always hate saying this. Dyscalculu. Dyscalculia. [00:15:22] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. I always say I Think I always say dyscalculia, but that is not correct. That's just like a short. [00:15:26] Speaker B: Sounds better. I just keep looking at it and want to say Dracula. Count Dracula. [00:15:30] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:15:33] Speaker B: Which is like difficulty with numbers, OCD and dyspraxia. And dyspraxia. I forget what dyspraxia is. Is that when. Oh, shoot. [00:15:46] Speaker A: Is it something to do with like, movement and more to do with movement based. Isn't it? [00:15:51] Speaker B: Yeah, it's like kind of like difficulties or differences in coordination, basically. [00:15:58] Speaker A: Okay, yeah. [00:15:59] Speaker B: And the reason they're all neurodiverse is because they come from kind of the layout of your neurons in your brain. And we're still learning a lot about neurodiversity. Like, the concept is evolving and so there's a lot up in the air. But the, the. Because we're kind of like touching on the basics. Um, so overall it's a range of differences in individual brain function, behavioral traits, characteristics, and it's kind of regarded as just like a normal variation of the human population rather than like, like something negative about the person. And like I said, there's a big thing for me, and especially in the autistic community, saying that a lot of autistic traits that are diagnosable are actual symptoms of distress. So, like meltdowns and things like that. And so it's almost impossible to get diagnosed as autistic under the current diagnostic criteria without being burnt out or under distress. And so there's a big issue with that. So just touching on that a little bit. Autism is a processing difference that can impact. Well, that does impact every area of your life. Essentially. Autistic people have more and denser neuronic neural pathways. And so everyone goes through a pruning process of their neurons when you're in early childhood. So it's almost like if you're not using that neuron. So if you're not learning a third language, then you're going to lose the neurons that have that capacity. It's pruning to basically make your thought processes more efficient. But what happens in some, you know, something that happens with autistic people is they keep 40% more of their neurons and neuronal pathways, especially in their prefrontal cortex, which is the area that is responsible for processing, like logic and stuff like that. And so that's kind of where it comes from. And so it really changes how you process the world. So you've got different and more things to process that can lead to what's perceived as delayed processing. You know, differences in communication, differences in sensory experiences and things like that. And so there's no typical autistic person. And everyone has their own strengths and differences and needs. So I can't, it's like there's like that idea of the autistic person who's just blunt, doesn't care, can't handle stimuli melting down, whereas that's not typically it. So I don't want to get too much into all the differences because I think it's so that it spans a lot. So if anyone's more interested in learning more about autism and adhd, aside from like a normal, just pure definition, let us know because we'll do an episode on it. Whereas ADHD is like the really flamboyant cousin of autism, which is like another version of neuro hyperconnectivity. So it's just different ways that the brains, the neurons are firing to each other and almost like a more neuron seeking way and zero. It's almost like noticing so many connections at the same time. So different sensory experiences, a need for novelty and variety. Whereas most autistic people need the opposite very interest driven dopamine system. And so whereas an autistic person might get this from hyper focus and like monotropic thinking, an autistic person will get an interest driven dopamine system like oh, that's interesting over there. That's interesting over there. That's interesting over there. Haven't finished this task all the way. Haven't finished this task all the way. And again like it's such a, like a spectrum of experiences. So I don't want to go into it loads because that's not the top of topic of our episode, but loads of different processing styles. But the thing I want to kind of emphasize is ADHD is not inattention, it's not hyperactivity, impulsivity or mood and instability. It doesn't impair your ability to think. Again, these are distress symbols. It's actually like attention to loads of things like energy towards dopamine producers and things like that. Just like autism isn't meltdowns, it's not self harm, it's not being antisocial. These are again distress symptoms. So this kind of leads me into the next definition I want to go into which is neuroaffirmative. And so this again like has arisen from the neurodiversity movement and that's really celebrating the differences of neurodivergent individuals. And in, in line with that, acknowledging the support needs that go along with that. Because ADHD and autism are disabilities, but not because they're impairments necessarily, but they're just not supported in our culture, our, you know, society, interpersonally, we're kind of ingrained in a very neurotypical world. And so most disabilities are disabilities because of the way the world is constructed, both physically and socially. So this in itself, living in a neurotypical world, is one of the main causes of neurodivergent burnout. So I'm going to. Unless. What. Is there anything you want to throw in there before I. Well, I've finished my bit now, my chaotic little bit, but. Any thoughts? [00:21:22] Speaker A: One thought I was having was how you can also get kind of a. I don't know how we determine it, like, the comorbidity of. Or like a joint diagnosis for ADHD and autism, which would be ADHD. [00:21:38] Speaker B: Is that right? Yeah. [00:21:40] Speaker A: And I think that. Is that around, like, 80% of people who will have that kind of dual diagnosis. But I think it's quite difficult to identify through diagnosis. [00:21:53] Speaker B: It is. A lot of people, subconsciously, if they're late diagnosed, have been able to use their ADHD traits to mask their autism. So the kind of pathway that I've seen is people have been diagnosed with ADHD and then they get on their ADHD medication to regulate that dopamine release and things like that, and they're able to focus more. And then they realize, hmm, something's still up here. And then they realize, oh, maybe I'm autistic, too. And so that's kind of how that. It's not everyone, obviously, but that typical dual pathway goes. And we're starting to realize that it's more rare to just be one because they're so related in. In the kind of, you know, construction of your neurons. And they're so genetic. And what we tend to see is ADHD and autistic people tend to find each other and because they balance each other out really well and so obviously give both to their children. [00:22:55] Speaker A: I mean, that makes sense, really, doesn't it? [00:22:57] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:22:58] Speaker A: Do you feel like you're. I say this in a nice way, like, just autistic. [00:23:04] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, I am. There's not an ounce of adhd, Not a single ounce. I am, like, very. Yeah. Very, very autistic. Jack has adhd and, like, we are so different in our approaches. He. I don't think he's autistic, but we're so different in our needs, in terms of, like, our traits of, like, like, thinking. So where we've, like, had to Develop communication styles on purpose to overcome, like, his. Because I like monologuing, clearly. And that's a very autistic thing. Whereas he's like, do, do, do, interrupt, interrupt, interrupt. But when that happens, because of the processing, I get distracted. I, like, forget what I'm gonna say. And so we've, like, come up with skills to try and, like, fit both of us. So, yeah, long story short, I am quite autistic. Quite high. Quite high. Masking when I'm, like, out in the world. Um, but basically, my assessor, like, on, like, within the first, like, 30 minutes is like, Yep. [00:24:17] Speaker A: This makes sense. Yes. [00:24:18] Speaker B: And I was never masked by adhd, so. [00:24:22] Speaker A: No. [00:24:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:23] Speaker A: Okay. Interesting. Yeah, I think it. I think it is really interesting, like, because a concept, but not that it's concept, but interesting how they can hide one another. And it almost makes me think in a way, like, all right, well, amazing. Like, then you have both, and then you go back to neutral and you're fine. But actually, it can cause more complications because it's like, you actually never get what you want because you're constantly fighting this battle of, like, you mentioned before, like, do I want routine or do I want something novel and different? So it's almost like there's never, like, you're never, like, fully satisfied almost. [00:25:09] Speaker B: I feel like we're, like, so taught to think of things as linear. And so you would think, if you think about it, like, ADHD is on one end of the neurodivergent spectrum and autism on the other. And so if you have both, maybe you can get towards, like, the middle. Whereas, like, it's just not that at all. They're just two different things that are their own little circles with their own spectrums. And so, like. And then they're just, like, bouncing against each other in your brain. Yeah, Fun. [00:25:37] Speaker A: Super fun. So where are we now, then? Okay, so, well, I guess we'll start by talking a little bit about adhd. [00:25:45] Speaker B: Let's do it. [00:25:47] Speaker A: And I suppose the links of this kind of into burnout and what kind of those experiences might be like. So we wanted to start with a listener comment, which they've said we can read out. So this is a listener who has adhd. So they've said. Every time I have a moment to spare, I get a new job or start a new project because I've forgotten the 101 other projects I already have. Now I'm working two nights everywhere, every six, and Monday to Friday in the daytime in another city. Then I volunteer one day a week in another club and I run a workshop once a week on a Monday and I have two kids and I have to get here and there and everywhere for activities every night. I'm officially burnt out. And I think maybe just the second part of this comment I think is interesting as well. So they feel like they keep going for jobs that they love regardless of the pay, but now they're working more hours and earning less than they used to. They said I'm rushing through my tasks to get them done and missing out on stepping back and enjoying the moment. So I think that's interesting too because there's a, you know, we can really strive to be in jobs we value and enjoy, but actually shoot ourselves in the foot a little bit if it means we are having to work doubly hard to get enough pay and then don't have enough time to even enjoy what we're doing. So, yeah. Do you have any thoughts on that comment, Kristen? [00:27:27] Speaker B: Just that like, really fits into what we were talking about in terms of like dopamine search. Just like that, constant dopamine search. And you know, I think we've mentioned it in a previous episode that maybe, you know, neurodivergent traits are evolved, but in a. Just like, you know, any other trait. But in the world that we evolved in, this would have been adaptive. This would have led to innovation. This would have led to like, oh, there's a deer over there, let's go get it, or whatever. Whereas now, since our brains aren't evolved for this, the ADHD brain goes, there's something I like, there's something I like, but it's actually now a commitment that overextends and I can really see how that might lead to burnout. [00:28:08] Speaker A: Yeah, that's an interesting. That's a good word, I think, to use like, it's that overextension that perhaps happens from that interest in so many, like different things. And I. Interesting as well, I think, like in today's world it's like you should be having a job that is like long term, not necessarily like jumping around to things. And I actually, I sort. So I know the person who kind of sent in this comment and we also had a bit of a conversation around. Is it in the. I don't think it's in the actual comment I read out, but the idea of how it feels good to have a project that's coming to an end and then being able to start something new. And I think that also picks up this idea of, yeah, that novelty seeking. So rather than having, you know, one like full time job that we're just constantly in and like trawling through almost and actually having it quite project based can be more rewarding and interesting. [00:29:14] Speaker B: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. As long as it's controlled well and those boundaries are in place, I can see. Whereas you know me, I'm like the opposite. [00:29:22] Speaker A: I'm like Kristen, the autistic person. As long as it's control, it's fine. [00:29:27] Speaker B: As long as we have a plan. Yeah, I have so many things I want to and I love that. I like the idea when a project comes to a close, but it's also like, but I'm going to continue this in only a slightly different way. [00:29:42] Speaker A: Do you know what I mean? [00:29:44] Speaker B: That's exactly how all my research goes. It's like, okay, well we've closed this project on sexism or psychological safety. But that has just led to an additional question about this exact topic that we will continue. So it's like ending but then continues at the same time. And so that's where I feel comfortable. [00:30:02] Speaker A: Oh my gosh. Maybe this is why my research is like so chaotic. Maybe, maybe that says something. So there's quite a lot of overlap then I guess, I guess if we want to call it ADHD burnout, there isn't really a specific ADHD burnout like we have with autistic burnout, but it's kind of burnout for people who have ADHD is quite similar to a typical burnout, but it can be compounded by or sort of lead to worse like mental health outcomes because of some of the, I suppose, symptoms that people might experience from adhd. So ADHD burnout tends to be caused by ongoing stress of trying to manage these symptoms without appropriate support in addition to other sources of stress, whether that is from the comment from work or from general life or maybe having a big family that you're needing to look after. We know that general burnout is caused by this prolonged exposure to stress in work, school, life and so on. But the ADHD symptoms that tend to, I suppose underline or emphasize. Some of the burnout symptoms are things like their impulsivity or being distracted by certain things or some of the hyperactivity. But the symptoms can include a lack of motivation, maybe it's having brain fog or difficulty concentrating and forgetfulness. One of the, probably like one of the main symptoms that we hear about is like hyperfocus or like an over commitment to something. And this is where there are periods of very intense focus and that can then impact burnout because you're so focused for a certain period of time that actually you start like neglecting your own needs or overextending your energy. [00:32:16] Speaker B: Kind of like this comment, like if you're like, like you're, you're over committing because it's, you know, that's dopamine release in the moment and then that commitment's a commitment. You're in it for however long. And so even your hyperfocus might only last so long, though your hyperfocus might not last the length of the commitment. So I can see how that's not just the energy of like physically doing it, but it's like mentally making yourself do something when your hyperfocus is gone. [00:32:46] Speaker A: Yes, that's such a good point. Yeah. It's like in this moment, yes, I'm fully committed, but give me however long and actually now I'm recognizing maybe that's not what I'm interested in or that's not what I have time to do. Yeah. And then we have so like Krista mentioned before, challenges to do with like executive dysfunction. So this, with, with adhd we probably quite often hear about this in terms of like time management and like organization, like meeting deadlines. And this can then lead to quite like anxiety, I suppose, like promoting experiences, feelings of perhaps being a failure or not being able to like meet these deadlines that we need to. And then that is probably made worse by things like emotional dysregulation. So experiencing quite intense emotional reactions which will lead to of course quicker exhaustion, especially during a stressful period. And then maybe like the last thing to consider here is like a stigma and a misunderstanding of adhd. So because of this I think there's often, well yeah, just a lot of, I suppose, judgment. So if you are distracted or you're not focused or you're late for something, can you get labeled as like being lazy where it's almost like the complete opposite. So this can create a lot of stress and a lot of self doubt as well for the person. So we can see how like these symptoms can then almost like push you like towards burnout more quickly and have a real impact on daily life. So whether that is just being able to complete daily tasks and maintaining routines, managing your time effectively. So yeah. What are your thoughts on that, Kristin? [00:34:46] Speaker B: I think all of that made me think of the two types of people who were later diagnosed with ADHD that I know that I've seen throughout my life. And like we've probably said before, but like neurodivergent people tend to find each other and so at the time I didn't know maybe that they were adhd. But now I know after reflecting and me being me overanalyzing human behavior constantly, it was always something I like took note of. And now I'm adding that information in. We have, and I think it's a gender difference as well, which is supported in the literature. So on one hand we have a woman who was late diagnosed ADHD and masked her ADHD by overcompensating with a million different notebooks, color coded schedules, like sticky notes everywhere, reminders in the phone constantly. And that led to burnout because it was like, and I think seeking the diagnosis as well or seeking support because it was extending so much mental energy to kind of stick like no support needs. So keeping organized in your life with a brain that just wants to do everything and still being on time. This person was very high achieving, you know, great grades in school, great athlete, things like that. But once you get into the real world and there's even more stimulus, those sticky notes don't quite make up for it anymore. And so more and more demands and then all of a sudden they just couldn't do it anymore. And there was that feeling of like burnout caused by going, doing too much, trying to organize their lives and keep up with it, but then not being able to. And then I've seen the other side where they didn't have those coping mechanisms of organizing. You know, there wasn't that almost like early gendered expectation, I don't think to organize your own life. I feel like women are taught more that kind of like compartmentalization and multitasking and that you need to do live to a certain standard. Whereas I don't think this person was taught that it might not be gendered. But this is what I've seen a lot in my own life and research does support it. But missing out meetings, forgetting to put it in your calendar app because something else happened. There was an email and so missing a meeting, just like loads of different things like that. And feeling constantly like you're letting people down, like, well, I didn't realize you told me to do this. It completely slipped my mind, leading to feelings of guilt, feelings of like what you were talking about, like, like judgment about being distracted or lazy, which that wasn't happen. They were constantly on the go trying to figure it out, but it was always playing catch up. And so again that those feelings of guilt and you know, stigma and things like that led to again that burnout. So almost like two different tracks to it from the same source, I suppose. [00:37:32] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's interesting how you're linking that to those like gendered expectations as well. So on one side it almost feels like more chaotic on the example you gave with kind of the person who was using all like the post it notes and like trying to plan everything like that sounds like so much effort. But, but, but they are likely the ones, would you say, who are being later diagnosed than the second example you gave? [00:38:02] Speaker B: The second example could have been diagnosed when they were like five, no problem. But they weren't just because of the stigma at the time. So they, everyone's always known, they'd always make a joke about them being ADD or adhd. So it's, it's like not surprising in terms of stigma and lack of access that they weren't diagnosed, but they would have been in today. Whereas like the other one that was able to mask it through all of this kind of organization probably would more still be late diagnosed, if that makes sense. [00:38:32] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Where do you feel we are like today in terms of like stigma related to like diagnosis? [00:38:40] Speaker B: It's, I think it's getting better. It's much better with adhd, it's, it's better with autism, but still not great. Because you hear this is why self diagnosis is becoming very accepted by the neurodivergent community. Because firstly getting diagnosed, you have to be suffering already, you have to be having meltdowns. You have to be like displaying all these basically symptoms of autistic distress. And it was only 14 years ago, I think something around then that we realized that girls and women could be autistic. Like, and so we're still very, very far behind. So you're either. What was something I saw the other day, it's like, if you're not diagnosed yet, it's like, oh, you're kind of weird, you know, like, what's wrong with you that you finally get diagnosed? And it's like, you're not weird enough to be autistic. So we're not quite there yet. There's a lot of acceptance within the community of the broad expressions of, you know, autism and neurodivergence more broadly. But outside of that, you know, it's definitely not there. And it's not always necessarily meant negatively, but it still affects the person, you know. [00:39:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:50] Speaker B: So it's still like not nice to be told that you're not autistic. [00:39:55] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. [00:39:57] Speaker B: And I'm like, I've got a certificate. It says it. [00:40:00] Speaker A: Yeah, because it's like you say it's like well if I'm not, then what am I? [00:40:04] Speaker B: And what am I? You just said I was weird. You just said I was like unnerving in some way. [00:40:12] Speaker A: But I like how you say like symptoms of like autistic like distress. And I don't think I've heard it put like that before. But I think that's really, really useful in almost trying to I guess avoid some of the misunderstandings about how autism can represent itself. [00:40:35] Speaker B: Yeah, so when you characterize autism, this, you care, you're characterizing things all the way from proprioception. So that's you know, your body position, dancing, your you know, basically coordination, you know, stims, self regulating energy, repetitive movements, executive function. Like we were talking about differences in relationships and communication. So like needing meaningful conversations and not small talk. Eye contact masking, bonding through special interests. You've got interoception. Like do you, are you aware of your internal needs like hunger or thirst? Are you alexithymic? Which means you don't necessarily know what your body's feeling. And so as long as you're in an environment where you can be autistic so you're able to stim and you can do your hyperfocus and things like that are actual autistic traits you won't see. And I mean obviously there are some autistic people that do have much higher support needs because it depends on the person. But for a lot of autistic people, if they're able to engage in their neurotype, you won't see the other end of that exact like the spectrum which is like meltdowns, shutdowns, burnout and stuff like that. Like struggles with executive dysfunction because executive functioning, it means hyperfocus, you know, and things like that. But when it's not good, it means like struggles with hygiene and of demand avoidance and things like that. And so it's such a broad spectrum. I can't remember why I was saying this but like essentially like I think we really need to decipher between diagnostic criteria which are mostly like the way they phrase it, limited interests and like. No, that's passionate hyper focus or like a passionate special interest. It's very, it's very deficit focused. And so it's, it's like rigid as well. [00:42:38] Speaker A: I think they use that term. Like rigid interests. [00:42:41] Speaker B: Yeah, rigid limited they say like black and white thinking or narrow mindedness when really it's just the way your neurons are structured, the processing between them, you tend to look at details before you look at the big picture. And so you look at both, but you just, like, prioritize what you're looking at differently and problematizing. That is an issue. [00:43:04] Speaker A: Yeah. It's like. It really feels like someone who's neurotypical like, wrote those. [00:43:09] Speaker B: Oh, no shit. [00:43:11] Speaker A: Those characteristics. Right. And, like, I wonder, like, if somebody who is, like, autistic and neurodiverse, like, wrote it back, like, the other way, like, writing it for neurotypical people. [00:43:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:24] Speaker A: Would we be, like, super. I suppose, like, not sagitting. Yeah. Negative. Negative about it as well. Like, actually. Yeah. I don't know. [00:43:34] Speaker B: Well, I think what we have to look at is. And I. I could go on a rant about, like, our. The medicalization, the deficit model of health and disability and stuff like that for a whole hour. So I won't. Yes. Especially because I've been quite ingrained in the literature recently for the paper I'm writing. But autism, adhd, neurodiversity more broadly has historically been an accepted and embraced just, like, natural human characteristic. And we can see a lot of that in indigenous cultures currently that all have different words for gossip and stuff like that. And they're just like, all right. That's just how this person is. They're just different. And if you look back at back in the day, even just like, the Celts were like, oh, Jason. That's not a very Celtic name, but I'm gonna go with it. [00:44:26] Speaker A: Jason. [00:44:27] Speaker B: Jason, like, hasn't been down to the town for a month. He just stays up and does his sheep farming and never speaks to anyone. But that's fine. That's just what Jason does. You know what I mean? [00:44:37] Speaker A: Classic Jason. [00:44:37] Speaker B: Classic Jason. Yeah. [00:44:40] Speaker A: There was that thing. Did you see that thing I sent you on Instagram about the Mario? [00:44:46] Speaker B: I'm terrible at looking at my messages. [00:44:48] Speaker A: This is so strange because I literally only saw it the other day. I sent it to you, but you're kind of talking about it. They're like. The Maori have their own word for autism. I cannot remember what it was, but it had some sort of meaning, which was like, I'm gonna mess this up, probably. But it was something like. Just like, give them space and, like, let them do, like, their thing, basically. [00:45:10] Speaker B: I've seen. Let me just Google it real quick because it actually was really nice. [00:45:14] Speaker A: It was really nice. But they were basically from this. This short video I watched, it seemed like they very much just allowed the autistic person to just kind of be themselves and do what they wanted to do. And. Yeah, it was just seemed like a very acceptance, kind of based view on that rather than being like, oh, they're different, why are they doing these weird things? [00:45:42] Speaker B: Yes, it's not deficit based. It's. I won't say the word, but it means in their own time and space, which very much kind of reflects it. [00:45:49] Speaker A: And I think try and say the word. [00:45:51] Speaker B: Oh, no way, I'm, I'm, I'm too white for that. Oh, fair enough. I would just be offensive. But I think like the medical model, as everything else with our western view of medicine is based off of problematizing and looking at things as deficit and then reacting off of problems rather than proactive looking at traits, things like that. And honestly, I would love to do an episode on the medical model of health because it addresses health, mental health. We have all this historical data bias that informs our understanding of health. Like the fact that women weren't involved in clinical trials until the 90s, you know, things like that. So that's another tangent. And because we're already so far into the episode, I feel like I should quickly go into autistic burnout so we can touch on recovery a little bit before the end. But autistic burnout is a bit different than ADHD burnout because ADHD burnout is kind of like neurotypical burnout, but it's made worse by ADHD symptoms. So having ADHD is a risk factor for worse burnout symptoms, essentially. Whereas autistic burnout is a specific burnout as a result of being autistic in a neurotypical world. So it's kind of, it's conceptualized as resulting from chronic life stress and a mismatch of expectations and abilities without the adequate, adequate support. So I don't really like that definition because it implies that an ability to function in a neurotypical world is the only thing that matters. But it's basically characterized by pervasive long term. So like more than three months, exhaustion, loss of function and reduced tolerance to stimulus. And it really affects every aspect of your life. And this is how I realized I was autistic. So I'll describe this and then if anything pops up, I'll explain my story rather than have a listener comment about autism. But autistic people, you know, tend to feel pressure to meet neurotypical standards. This adds to the stress, feeling inadequate. And again, the stimulation of a neurotypical world can be really harmful. So whether that's like sensory things like, whether it's sound, light things like, like I working in a hospital setting, I can hear every single freaking machine. I can Hear every light. I was getting my microneedling facial the other day, and they had spa music on, and I could hear the LED light over the spa music. And I was like, this is not relaxing. Oh. I mean, I had needles going in my face, but that was less. More relaxing than the sound. Looking at, like, boundaries, like physical boundaries, the need for alone time. This can lead to a specific type of burnout called autistic burnout. So this is down to kind of like sensory overload. So you're not able to manage environments with excessive noise, lights, crowds. Masking can really contribute to autistic burnout. So you're suppressing your autistic traits to fit in social exhaustion. So not having those boundaries, like, you know, constantly, like the holiday season, so you're seeing people every day socially. And executive function. So if you're pushing your executive function, like we were talking with that ADHD person, can lead to losing the ability to do things you could normally do. Extreme executive dysfunction, which I would describe as I just can't. You know what I mean? Increased or decreased sensory sensitivities and exhaustion. So kind of my experience with this was not knowing that I was autistic and masking for my entire life, and especially extreme masking from maybe the age of like 17, 18 until maybe about 31 third to 32. So like 14 years of extreme masking to the point where I didn't even read fantasy books anymore because I was trying to. I was, like, masking at all moments of my life. I was always feeling perceived. So masking, masking, masking. Forcing myself into social and sensory activities that I wasn't meant to be doing, But I just thought everyone was going through these experiences and I was just doing it wrong. Do you know what I mean? And doing this for so long led to what was misdiagnosed as depression. And autistic burnout is often diagnosed as depression because loss of executive function, you know, not wanting to do the things that you enjoy, being tired, those can be, you know, attributed to depressive, whether that's disorder or symptoms. And so I was going through therapy for depression, and none of it was working. And so that made me recognize there was something else going on, essentially. And I sought my autism diagnosis after a while. And essentially my treatment for depression was making my burnout more because. Making my burnout worse. Because you treat depression the opposite. You would treat autistic burnout. And that's why autistic burnout needs to be its own kind of category, because the expectations of a neurotypical society outweigh what we can physically and mentally do. So depression, you usually integrate activities into your life to kind of build upon positive experiences and increase your dopamine levels. Whereas autistic burnout involves being autistic, whether that's individually allowing yourself to engage with your special interests, you know, putting boundaries in place, trying to deconstruct your masking, which is what I've been working on the last two year. Actually, it's only been like a year and a bit. But I'm trying to figure out who I am under that mask because it was very different. Like the blonde volleyball player from America. And now I'm like the feminist witch. [00:51:58] Speaker A: I prefer that one. [00:52:00] Speaker B: Yeah, me too. And, you know, just stuff like that. I don't know if any of that's made sense or, like, kind of connected or if I've given a good description of what autistic burnout looks like. [00:52:12] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I think that was really useful. And I think it's interesting how, like, the. How the treatment for depression was actually making things worse. So that was that kind of like. So for the treatment for depression, it was more like getting you out and almost like, socializing more, Whereas actually you needed, like you said, boundaries and actually alone time and rest and engaging in, like, very specific interests which perhaps you weren't able to identify through the therapy for depression. [00:52:46] Speaker B: Yeah, it was a lot of like. Obviously we try to get people to get in touch with their feelings. Firstly, not knowing I was alexithymic. I was like, why the hell can't I figure out what I'm feeling? Why am I numb? I wasn't numb. I'm a lexithym. I've got emotions. I just don't know what the hell they are sometimes. And it's like, get out, socialize. Engage with the people you care about. Where I just sometimes don't have that capacity because that mental social capacity sometimes isn't there. It almost is, like, cross too many boundaries. It's like, figure out how to do things that you don't. Shouldn't really be doing. Do you know what I mean? And whereas, like, recovering from autistic burnout could literally just be looking like, the first step is just be autistic. You know what I mean? Allow yourself to stim. I didn't even know I had sensory sensitivities until, like, six months ago because I was masking that as well. You know what I mean? And I think what happened to me is. And this happens a lot of the time for autistic people. I heard. And my evaluation is when I'm going to like big loud social events, if acceptable, I'll be drinking because that and a lot of autistic people online have said this as well. Like that helps dull some of your senses and it makes it so that you're less feeling less pressured and judged about masking. And so once I stopped relying on that, all these sensory sensitivities came out. And I'm like, now I've got like my stim toy and my loop earplugs and my mom got me for Christmas last year this really nice like fidget ring. And now that I'm not masking that stuff in public anymore, it's more tolerable to do that. But I also still have drawn more, way more significant boundaries around when I'll go out and things like that. But then the problem is you get that stigma that we were talking about earlier. God, you're just acting so much more autistic now and you're like, yeah, because not acting autistic caused me to go into frickin autistic burnout and my mental health to plummet. So I think what we need to, what we need to think about is this trajectory. Right. So autistic burnout can get confused with depression, but in reality, autistic burnout can lead to depression and anxiety. I was diagnosed with depression and anxiety when really I was having autistic burnout out and meltdowns because I used to, my panic attacks were actually meltdowns the whole time. [00:55:20] Speaker A: Yeah, that's mad, isn't it? And, yeah, and I, and it's interesting as well, I think the link with anxiety and maybe like, particularly like social anxiety because I don't know, I'm thinking about kind of some of my experiences and I would always get very like sensory like, like overwhelmed in restaurants. But I always felt like it was like just anxiety and. But it was always the sounds, you know, like, you know like when you're in a restaurant and you can feel like everything clattering and you can hear like multiple conversations. [00:55:59] Speaker B: It just made me. Conversations thinking about that. Yeah. Oh my God. [00:56:03] Speaker A: It makes me feel physically sick. [00:56:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:56:06] Speaker A: Like things like that would always get me, but not always. But if I was feeling a certain way or I'd had like a bad day or I guess whatever that might be. [00:56:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:56:17] Speaker A: Then those environments are like unbearable. [00:56:20] Speaker B: It's like so much worse. [00:56:21] Speaker A: It's like the bucket is full and now you've put me in this environment and I'm just overflowing and Then that's the shutdown. And I always hate that because you're like. Often when you are out at a restaurant, it's because, oh, maybe it's for, like a special occasion or you're going out to have like a nice time with family or with friends, but it's just unbearable. And then there's a lot of. I think there's also a lot of guilt associated with that. But that, I don't know, maybe it is anxiety, but for me, I think there's a bit of confusion around is that anxiety or is it like something else? [00:56:57] Speaker B: How I would differentiate that from both my own experiences, other people's experiences, and what more recent literature is starting to say, because it used to be termed social anxiety, but I'm not so sure that's right, is that. That sounds like sensory overload to me. Social anxiety that often comes with being autistic is nerves surrounding, needing to mask, getting the social situation right. Not wanting to socialize necessarily, not because you need that boundary, just because you're nervous about being social. Whereas, like, the sensory aspect of socializing, I think, is sensory overload. And I totally get that. I don't know if you remember when we went out for dinner after I submitted my doctorate and I told you guys, I was like, I struggle to eat in these environments. I love food. I can down an entire pizza to myself. But in those loud, kind of surrounded by people environments, I don't know. And I've always struggled with this and never known why, because I'm. I love food so much, but I'm like, I struggle to eat and it's really depressing when I'm going to a restaurant and I'm like, it's easier if it's just me and Jack and we're like, put in a corner. You know what I mean? [00:58:07] Speaker A: Yes, the corner is the best. [00:58:09] Speaker B: The corner, yes. Yeah, yeah. [00:58:12] Speaker A: And I'm smiling because I'm like thinking about times at restaurants that I've had that been really embarrassing. I remember once. This is. This is super embarrassing. But once we went out to a restaurant and I ordered some something, and it was horrible, and I really didn't like it. I was like, that's fine. Like, I'm just not gonna eat it. And then, oh, my God, this is absolute nightmare. Then Matt said to the waiter that I didn't like the food. And I was like, why did you say that? And then the chef came out and it's like, I'm so sorry you didn't enjoy the food. Can I get you Something else. And I was like, no, it's fine, I'll just start. I like literally after he'd left, I like, I literally just started crying at the table and I was like, please can we leave now? Like, oh my God. Oh my God, you've done this to me. That was, that was horrific. [00:59:00] Speaker B: Oh, that sucks. I would be so sad. Oh God. Should we quickly touch on, I think I've mentioned a little bit how to solve autistic burnout, which essentially is, you know, being autistic, allowing yourself rest, allowing yourself boundaries, you know, that self awareness of knowing your own needs because everyone's so different and actually implementing those support needs. So for example, I, you know, instead of having meetings every day, I will try to struggle. Struggle. Well, I do struggle sometimes. I will try to schedule like a day of hyper focus and research and then I'll have a day of all meetings so that I don't have to like always be mentally prepared to socialize. It's just like for each person. But I know you had some stuff that would also be useful to pop in there. [00:59:53] Speaker A: Yeah. So I suppose some things are. So it's like whether we can like be aware of what perhaps some of the likely causes are, whether we're tracking our mood or being more aware when things shift and change or even like what's making some of these like pre burnout experiences. [01:00:13] Speaker B: It's hard to track your mood when you're lexathymic. [01:00:17] Speaker A: That though. Right. So I've been trying to, I've been trying to track my mood recently and I find that it's either I'm sad or indifferent. And I find it really difficult sometimes to more notice like the positive emotions. But one thing my therapist, she says to me is to try and probably in a way like less about the feelings and more about just like finding little moments that like you're doing something that you enjoy. So I don't know if that's kind of helpful in terms of an explanation. You're probably know more than me but perhaps more than getting like over because I can do, I can be overthinking. I'm like, why aren't I happy or excited about something? It's instead like is this something that I enjoy and find value in? I don't know. [01:01:12] Speaker B: I think that's a good way of looking at it because firstly, you know, negative emotions are much easier to recognize because our brains are just evolved to do that. Whereas like positive ones can be so much more difficult. And I struggle with the conceptualization of happiness as a Positive emotion, because happiness and joy are great, but that doesn't mean they're. They're like the only positive thing. A new being neutral, I think, is also a positive because I think there's just this over emphasis on being happy all the time, which just is literally not real. Unless you have some kind of, you know, disorder, literally, your brain is not quite wired right. And even when that happens, you know, say you're bipolar or have these, like, really extreme mood swings, you used to get the other end of the stick. So I think really what we should be looking for is more neutral and then bits of life and of your day that you're finding joy and just enjoying yourself a little bit. So that's why I'm like. I mean, this goes down like one of my autistic strategies is I have to put alarms on my phone because I forget when to. If I have a hyperfocus, I forget when to eat or drink because I'm not. Not aware of when I'm hungry or thirsty. But I've made my 11 o'clock mocha that I have every single day into my moment of joy because I love my routines. I'll go in, make my mocha, listen to a podcast, come in, just like, you know, just like. It's just like, oh, I love this part of my day. And it sounds so small, but just like those really tiny little things that you enjoy. [01:02:49] Speaker A: Yes. You see, I wish I could do that, but I feel like all of my mornings are just so varied and chaotic that I don't even know what I'm doing half of the time. Like, just try and get out of the door or just remember to, like, brush your teeth. [01:03:07] Speaker B: That sounds like executive dysfunction. [01:03:12] Speaker A: But, yeah, I think where we can carve out those moments, and that's something that sometimes I get frustrated with is I feel like I struggle to carve out these moments of. Of rest and, like, being present and just taking note of, like, the simple things which are, like, you say joyful or just. Just relaxing or just, like, you say, neutral and almost just allowing yourself to press pause. Like, that's something I found really difficult, but something I recognize is really important for if we are trying to support ourselves through burnout or pre. Burnout. So, yeah, I think it's this idea of permission as well. I always come back to. But giving yourself permission to do that and to enjoy things. [01:03:55] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:03:56] Speaker A: And learning a way that rests for work, that works for you. And I think it's interesting in this word, like, rest when it comes to someone who has ADHD is that this idea of rest might actually involve like movement or getting up and doing something different rather than, you know, just sitting down and I don't know, watching tv I love. [01:04:18] Speaker B: Yeah, no, absolutely. So this literally happened the other day. I said to Jack, we were sitting down for the evening to like I was reading, he was watching TV and we were both relaxing. And I said to him, firstly, I need to get like a blinder on one side of my eye so I can't see you constantly moving so much. And then secondly I was like, we need to like film a time lapse of like hour, hour of relaxing because I like don't move. I might flip over a little bit on the couch here every few minutes. Not even then, like maybe 30 minutes. I won't even get up to use the bathroom because I'm so focused. Whereas he's like up, down, phone scroll up down. What's going on, Kristen? What about this? Flick the channel. YouTube clicking buttons and I'm just like constant movement. But that's him resting in like what his brain wants to do whereas I'm just like hyper focused like fantasy book and this is how my brain rests. [01:05:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:05:11] Speaker B: So it just looks different for everyone. [01:05:13] Speaker A: Definitely. And so I think that's something good to like reflect on is what does rest look like for you and it doesn't have to be a conventional way of resting. Yes. [01:05:21] Speaker B: Love that. [01:05:23] Speaker A: Yeah. Some other things like say no to stuff. So don't over yourself. Make the boundaries at the time you may really want to say yes and it might feel good to say yes but that's a favor. Like think about yourself in a couple of weeks time and how that person will hate you because you said yes to this thing. This is what I need to do. [01:05:49] Speaker B: And how you will hate that person because you, you said yes to this thing. [01:05:53] Speaker A: Totally. So practice saying no. And then something maybe I wanted to like quickly talk about. I know we were kind of quite. Yeah. Long in but just super briefly. So something that might help in terms of like prioritization maybe particularly for adhd but perhaps forward into it we can talk about it. But there's this thing called the Eisenhower matrix which one of my friends introduced me to and when she initially introduced it to me I really didn't like it because I felt like it was too like rigid like putting things in boxes. But I have more recently tried to use some of it and I think it has actually been helping. So I'll just really quickly go over this. It's basically where you can split your tasks into four different quadrants or kind of sections. So you split your tasks into whether something's urgent and important, important and not urgent, urgent, not important, and then not urgent and not important. [01:06:55] Speaker B: I'll put this in the video and maybe link it in the bio as well so that people can see. Or you guys know how to use Google the Eisenhower matrix? [01:07:06] Speaker A: Yes, Google it. That'll make this make more sense. But I'm maybe just going to focus on the top two for now. But basically, if you're always working on tasks that are urgent and really important, you're basically in this crisis mode and you're just always dealing with emergencies and trying to put out fires and everything super last minute. So ideally we want to try and be in this second quadrant where we're working on things that are important, but it's not urgent. So there's not a looming deadline. And this can feel much more like we're in flow and that we're dealing with issues before they arrive. Now, this would be amazing. Like in an ideal world, like, I would love for this to happen. I think my problem with it somewhat is that I can't feel like I can't avoid being in that crisis mode because everything almost feels important and urgent. So one, like, how do I categorize that? And also, is it almost like we're talking about in the. In the previous episode, when it comes to like work and burnout, there are just so many tasks that we need to complete that. Is it realistic for us to consider not being in crisis mode? [01:08:26] Speaker B: I have a lot of opinions on this, which is probably not surprising to anyone. So I can see how this would be useful, especially for a neurotypical person. If you're a neurodivergent, you have a different way of processing what's urgent and what's not urgent because of process. Like for autistic people, I think it has to do with your literal and maybe monotropic thinking. And for maybe ADHD people, it's what, where the dopamine's coming from. So things just might always feel urgent no matter what. And I think from my perspective, you know, it's a phrase like, just do your best and then you'll be fine. If you have very literal thinking, you think that means I have to do my best all the time. That means I have to be perfect or I'm not doing it right. And so you would always find, look at everything as urgent and important. Every email, every email I get, I'm like, if I don't Respond straight away. I feel guilty. I mean, I've implemented boundaries now. [01:09:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:09:33] Speaker B: So that's why I don't think that this is always going. It could. If you said it's helping you, that's awesome. But I think this needs to be taken with a grain of salt because if I use this, I would go into. I would go into burnout because I would never get into any of the quadrants other than urgent important. Whereas, like, yeah, now that I know I'm autistic and I have boundaries, I could probably take it with a grain of salt and use it a little bit. But, like, I would even find it hard to put these in the boxes because I think I've barely just gotten to either it's urgent or it's not urgent. And is it in a boundary or is it not in a boundary? And that's kind of how I've fixed my own burnout. So I feel like maybe it'll work for avoiding burnout or like pre burnout, but I don't think it'll help fix any burnout, if that makes sense. But it's very different per person. Sorry, what are your thoughts on it? [01:10:30] Speaker A: No, it's just interesting hearing you say that because the way I've been using this is basically ignoring the not important parts because I think everything's important. Like, so I've only been categorizing in the urgent and important. So that's basically do I need to get this done by tomorrow? And it's like in that category versus if it's not urgent, then it's like, okay, maybe I have, like, if I don't need to literally do this today. And I think that's helped for me to just prioritize a little bit. But I'm only using those two categories because it annoys me in a way because it's like certain emails and not important. I'm like, really though? Like, yes. Okay, maybe if I'm getting some. Some like promotional. Promotional emails from a bottle. Yeah, that's probably not important. But do you really know? Because there could be a really good offer in there. So it's like. So that's how I. So actually, yes, like, I've edited how I use it. [01:11:33] Speaker B: Yes, you have to personalize. Because look. Because look, it has on. On not urgent and not important. It has video gaming. Well, what if that's your special interest? And what if that's how you. I love how you just not even read that box. You haven't even read the not urgent, not important box. [01:11:50] Speaker A: That's No, I decided not to look at it. I actually think this is one of my things. When I was talking to my friends initially and I felt like I was being attacked because I was like, why is this not important to have this time for yourself? [01:12:04] Speaker B: Yeah, so that's. I. I have a lot of problems with this. I'm gonna. I'm gonna get in touch with Eisenhower. [01:12:10] Speaker A: Let's. Let's get. Let's find. Find them and tell them what we think. [01:12:17] Speaker B: I have no problem saying that, but. [01:12:21] Speaker A: Maybe that's something to kind of, well, I guess kind of reflect on, like, some of the. A lot of the things that we say, you know, obviously take them with a pinch of salt, think about kind of what works for you. If any of the things we've spoken about here you think might be useful, then give them a go. But then obviously, kind of, as we said in the last episode, like, if you do have burnout systems, which symptoms which are persisting despite kind of efforts to try and reduce that or kind of help yourself, then do reach out to a healthcare provider or mental health professional. Yeah, it is manageable and it is okay to ask for help. So, yeah, if, if you have recognized yourself in any of what we've been talking about, do talk to somebody about it. Yeah. Okay. So in terms of. Then like a reflection that might be useful. So if you are neurodiverse, it's perhaps useful to kind of reflect on, like, your boundaries, what you have in place at the moment, if there are any boundaries you could feel like you can set for yourself in order to help you kind of prevent, you know, like reaching pre burnout or burnout. And it might also just be reflecting on, you know, are there any of these symptoms that you are experiencing at the moment and kind of where do they. They show up, like, throughout your life. And I suppose if you're listening and you're. You're not neurodiverse, you know, if there's anyone in your life who is that you can support, perhaps offering to have conversations or just being open to having those discussions if they want to. And yeah, and hopefully as well, it's just a bit of awareness for anybody who isn't that in touch with like, the neurodiverse community. [01:14:09] Speaker B: Definitely. I think adding on that one of the hardest things to recognize in yourself is executive dysfunction. And I think kind of doing your reflection surrounding whether you're feeling that. So if you're feeling like, well, I really want to do these dishes because I want a clean kitchen, or I really want to do xyz, but I just can't make myself do it. And sometimes that can just make you feel lazy or guilty. If you're, if you're experiencing things like that, it might be time to like, reflect and look, do some introspection, whether you're neurodiverse or not. So for some reason that just popped up. Like I, I wanted to throw that in there too. So we have done a pretty long episode. So if you've held in there for the whole time, thank you guys so much for listening. As usual, we have more questions than answers, but we really explored enjoyed that is exploring burnout and neurodiversity. Did this leave you with any questions? Please comment and let us know. We'd also love to know if you have any topics you want us to explore. Make sure to like follow, engage, however your platform allows. Also, tell your friends Engagement really helps us get out there as well, so that would be super helpful. You can find us on various social media platforms, the links in the bio of our Instagram page, and also I'll stick it in the show notes. And remember, the first step to understanding is asking but why? [01:15:31] Speaker A: Yay.