Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey, everyone. Just Kristin hopping on real quick before we press play on episode two, Just wanted to note that Laura and I were actually quite sick when we recorded this episode. Probably more sick than we realized at the time. And when we were reflecting on it, we realized that we were probably a little burnt out as well, you know, with work and life and juggling everything while not being well. So we think it's a little bit more chaotic than our usual vibe.
Maybe not. So. Yeah, definitely open to feedback on that aspect. Hopefully you like it. Some people tended to like the more chaotic elements of episode one. Some people might not. But we just thank you for kind of evolving with us and your patience, as maybe our thoughts and maybe even emotions were a little muddled as we were going through. So despite all that, or maybe even because of. I hope you enjoy.
I feel like we're always going to start off laughing.
[00:01:02] Speaker B: I know.
[00:01:03] Speaker A: Okay. Welcome to the but why Podcast. The podcast where we are constantly questioning the human experience. Today we are talking about sexism, our area of interest and expertise, really. I am Dr. Kristen McGinty, Minister.
[00:01:18] Speaker B: I'm Dr. Laura Swetnam, and that's us.
[00:01:22] Speaker A: And I suppose we should do our theme song now.
Theme song.
[00:01:42] Speaker B: Kristen, how are you today?
[00:01:44] Speaker A: How's life? Ill. I'm ill. I woke up with a cold. My mug Wednesday Addams that says I hate everything really reflects how I'm feeling on this Wednesday.
And I'm actually really happy we have this organized because it's the only thing I want to do today. I cannot concentrate on actual editing and writing.
[00:02:04] Speaker B: That will be nice. Yeah, I'm the opposite. I have meetings today until, like, half five.
[00:02:09] Speaker A: Oh, gross.
[00:02:10] Speaker B: But I can do it. And then I think tomorrow is a little bit better. This is kind of nice, though. It's like, also today I have the kind of meetings that don't take too much energy, you know, and it's like with people you just feel comfortable with and, you know, you can just sit down and have a conversation. It's not like, learn loads of prep work or anything that you're having to do. So it's not so bad. And I was happy because yesterday I finally washed my hair, which I'd been putting off for, like, a week. I, like, really had to muster up energy. It's like, I must wash my hair for the podcast. Come on.
[00:02:39] Speaker A: It's for small wins. I know. But also, like, when you have bangs or you guys call it fringe. You guys call it a fringe. We call it bangs in America.
I feel like it's Harder to like, you have to like actually have it clean to like look good on the front of your face where those of us without it, we can just go, right.
Tie it back.
[00:02:58] Speaker B: Yeah, well, hey, ho. Fringe life.
[00:03:02] Speaker A: Fringe life.
Okay.
Oh yeah. We're actually in a podcast now. We should probably talk about things that we promised we would talk about.
[00:03:12] Speaker B: And we were talking about one of Kristin's favorite topics, I guess, favorite and most hated kind of at the same.
[00:03:18] Speaker A: Time like we've ingrained ourselves pretty, pretty like significantly in this area, especially in sport. So we're talking about sexism and how that kind of works in society. But like, you and I are very big, like social justice, all of the isms, but for some reason, sexism, maybe it's because we work in sport where it can be a little bit ingrained in that culture and harder to call out.
So that's, this is our first big, big, big research project together was in sexism.
[00:03:50] Speaker B: And it was such like a journey for me because I think throughout probably like at least half of my training, I wasn't even thinking about sexism. I was more just trying really hard to fit into these very male dominated environments rather than recognizing that it might be like sexism. And I think that we are almost, you're almost kind of one of two ends. You kind of go in and you accept it and you put up with it so that you can succeed in this male dominated environment or you recognize it and then probably experience an awful lot of distress and challenges, like, you know, trying to advocate for it, trying to create change and getting extremely frustrated. So yeah, it's, it's been an interesting journey learning more about sexism.
[00:04:44] Speaker A: I mean, you've literally just described how it works. So we're looking at ambivalent sexism today. There's multiple different theories surrounding sexism and gendered experiences and things like that. But ambivalent sexism to me best explains why it is the way it is. Because when you're looking at other forms of oppression, they're all very different. But when you're looking at something like, say racism, there's a very obvious kind of distance that the oppressor puts the oppressed through, whether that be like physical distance, economic, social distance, you know, you're talking about the states, you've got like redlining and things like that, but women and men. And now we're obviously talking from like a very kind of CIS point of view, but like CIS men and women throughout time have had to rely on each other for our species. You know, what I mean, we have to have some kind of positive gender relationships.
So this sexism theory really explains how we've managed to have relatively positive relationships between men and women despite patriarchal oppression. And so you've basically explained how there's one of two options. There's probably more. But this is what the theory says, is either you do what you've mentioned and you kind of, like, accept it and alter your portrayal, whether that's your femininity or certain aspects of yourself, so that you're fitting into more of, like, a traditional gender role. So wearing more feminine clothing, taking on more feminine roles at work. And basically what happens is men and the patriarchy society that you live in bestows affection on women who embrace those limited gender roles. They're limited, but they're safe, so you're less likely to be challenged. Now, on the other end of that spectrum, we've got hostile sexism, which tends to be enacted towards women who maybe are a threat to patriarchy or those kind of traditions. And, you know, it's almost that more easily recognizable sexism. So derogatory, derogatory comments, banning women from playing football slash soccer, depending on what your country, what country you're in for 50 years, things like that, it's much more obvious. And so it's easier to call out hostile sexism in a lot of cases because it's more noticeable. Whereas when benevolent sex sexism is happening, it's actually like a really weird experience because until you're aware of it, you don't know what's happening, and it also feels unsafe to extend out of that. But overall, this. This theory was invented about 30 years ago now, and so it's evolving as we go. But essentially, the idea of ambivalent sexism theory is offering male protection. So whether this be social protection, economic protection, things like that, in exchange for women's compliance, benevolent sexism kind of recruits women as unwilling participants in their own subjugation. And this is also done a lot of the time, consciously or unconsciously. And I don't necessarily want to get into a conversation around that and blame. I just want to talk about what's happening, because that's a whole different conversation.
[00:08:05] Speaker B: Mm. For sure. And it's almost like, as you're saying that, I was thinking, it's like we're kind of being manipulated by these benevolent.
Well, by benevolent sexism. Right?
Until I think you'd, like you said before, like, being almost like more conforming, more safe, like sticking to, like, the, I suppose, stereotypical way that, like, a woman should Be it's like we're being manipulated and molded into that space rather than maybe being more outspoken and challenging. The things that we hear about, which I think is from this theory, I think was one of the things that I found the most interesting but also like the most concerning because you start to realize, oh my God, I've basically just been being manipulated for like X amount of time.
[00:08:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean it is. When you actually put it that way, it makes me. I mean I already have a lot of rage and now it just makes me more annoyed.
[00:09:01] Speaker B: Sorry.
[00:09:02] Speaker A: It's all right. I feel like this is just gonna happen all the time. Yeah, it is. And it's manipulation by systems that were set up hundreds of years ago. You know, going back to when women were first thought of as property and that's what marriage was all about and. Etc, etc, etc, that's when all this stuff started happening. It's not how we are meant to be from an evolutionary perspective. That's not it. It's once society started happening and all these matriarchal societies were killed off by patriarchal societies, you know, and this has been taking place over hundreds of years, but still as of 10 years ago, the global like so worldwide gender gap in economic participation. So that's like your opportunity for jobs, your participation in jobs was still 60% and we're still seeing this massive backlash to women's progress. So like seeing that manipulation still happening even though there's this massive awareness and actually seeing increased backlash because of the broader awareness is even more stressful, I guess, and frustrating.
[00:10:06] Speaker B: And I wonder, do you know if that is. That's kind of internationally or is that kind of within the uk Because I'm wondering this because I guess it's kind of important for us to note that we have quite a lot of privilege, I suppose, like as white women and living in the uk Like I'm wondering like, do you put on the spot, do you know anything about like the sort of distribution of that?
[00:10:31] Speaker A: Yeah, well obviously, you know, since that's a global, you know, outlook that is including maybe countries that don't necessarily have the same laws policing equity. Actually I don't know what countries have laws put like in terms of equity. We'll just say equality at this point, laws trying to improve equality.
And so I'm not sure exactly sure what the distribution is, but for sure it'll be better here and probably in the States and you know, other European countries versus other countries that don't necessarily value that in their legislature. I mean, I saw something About a year ago that until very recently in Japan, I think it was, they were giving women wrong scores on their medical tests when they were training to be doctors, that they wouldn't be in the industry.
[00:11:23] Speaker B: That is wild, isn't it? And the fact, it's just crazy to me that someone actively thinks to do that and then kind of implements it again. It's like this just like malicious behavior, like against women. And perhaps, I know, Kristen, we talk quite a lot about, I suppose, like, cognitive dissonance and perhaps, you know, if men are feeling threatened kind of by women sort of potentially taking their spaces, taking their roles kind of within society. Like, I wonder if that might have been something going on in that scenario you were talking about.
[00:12:03] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, we should probably explain what cognitive dissonance is.
[00:12:07] Speaker B: Yes, you can do that.
[00:12:09] Speaker A: No, don't make me explain things.
Yeah, it's just that, that difference, that dissonance between kind of what you know and have accepted as truth and incoming information, that challenges that and like the uncomfortability that comes alongside that. And a big problem I have with our education systems is that we don't train people to critically think and take in new information and deal with that cognitive dissonance. So I'm sure that that absolutely played a part. And like you said, it is actively, like, actively malicious. Like, we talk a lot about, like, is this happening subconsciously? There is a massive subconscious issue, you know, where people are just not aware of their prejudice, whether that be surrounding sex, race, gender, all that kind of stuff. But there's like the active decisions to do. This is just blows my mind.
[00:13:07] Speaker B: Totally.
[00:13:09] Speaker A: You see a lot of this on online as well, like these active podcasts and active, you know, social media accounts trying, like to subjugate women to.
[00:13:19] Speaker B: It's.
[00:13:20] Speaker A: It's really weird, actually. I get really stressed talking about it. So why don't we talk about the theory a little bit more.
I was going to ask you what.
[00:13:29] Speaker B: That even was because I didn't even. I haven't heard of it. But what, but if what you were saying about social media accounts.
[00:13:36] Speaker A: Oh, well, you know all the like, Andrew Tate stuff. And I know you're not massively on social media. Do you know who Andrew Tate is?
[00:13:44] Speaker B: I'm not sure if I do.
[00:13:45] Speaker A: Please tell me. I envy you. Oh, my God. Can we just switch places? Oh, my God. He. He is just the worst kind of person ever. So he almost like teaches men. You know how we were talking about like performance last week?
[00:14:04] Speaker B: Yeah, he's.
[00:14:05] Speaker A: He's teaching men to Perform very specific identities that are very misogynistic.
[00:14:09] Speaker B: Did you send me something about this the other day where he's like picking up a suitcase off the floor.
[00:14:14] Speaker A: That's not him. That's just some other idiot.
[00:14:16] Speaker B: That was ridiculous.
[00:14:18] Speaker A: Here's how you pick up a suitcase. By being a man.
[00:14:21] Speaker B: Exactly. It's like, don't look flustered and be like, oh my God.
[00:14:27] Speaker A: Yeah, ridiculous. But they're like all the kind of like replicas of him. So essentially he started out as a skylight. Women, you know, should be subjugated. They are lesser. They're stupid. He literally has a quote saying if men had children, it would take two weeks.
[00:14:43] Speaker B: This is a.
[00:14:44] Speaker A: You problem of inefficiency is something like that. He's. Oh my. Oh my God. Oh my God. I. Okay, let's do a full episode on this because I actually want to get your like, live takes. My live reactions. Yeah, because mine were all like internal and like revolved around rage.
And so. And I just keep seeing more and more. And the main thing is, and this is. Involves us in teaching and stuff like that. So we've gone on such a tangent right now, but it is what it is. This is just us.
[00:15:17] Speaker B: This is our brain.
[00:15:19] Speaker A: Yes. This is basically what happens in any meeting. Our meeting today we started 20 minutes late because we just went on so many tangents. That's a tangent off our tangent. What was I saying about education?
[00:15:33] Speaker B: Yes, yes.
[00:15:34] Speaker A: So one of the things that I talk and write about a lot is how currently as it stands, and this has been in the news a lot recently, so I don't think it's going to be a surprise to anyone. Women are getting more and more progressive as they recognize that these progressive values and approaches actually protect their bodily autonomy, their safety, things like that. Men are getting more and more conservative. So like around the age of like 18 year olds now are less progressive than their fathers. How crazy is that? But only in terms of like gender. For everything else, they're progressive. So like surrounding ideas surrounding war, the economy, things like that. They are more progressive, you know, they're more leaning left. But when it comes to gender, they're feeling, like you said earlier, like quite threatened about their place. And I don't know where I read this quote.
Where was it? I don't know. I'll try and look it up if I remember.
But it basically said, okay, well, women have been told their whole lives, especially our generation, like when we were girls, for the most part have been told, you guys can do anything, you can be President one day, things like that. I guess that's not a thing here in the uk but you can be Prime Minister one day.
[00:16:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:52] Speaker A: And that's great. And we've been acting in those ways and, you know, kind of doing whatever we want in terms of, if you want to be a housewife, awesome. If you want to be a doctor, awesome. That's great. But the other side of it was missed, where the boys that are now men were not told that. So they've learned from society and their, you know, male role models what their gender performance looks like. So what does that look like in terms of my role as, you know, like, okay, well, I need to be a provider. I need to be.
[00:17:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:17:29] Speaker A: Xyz. But if I have this responsibility of being a provider, that means the woman needs to be doing xyz. You know what I mean? So the. The. It's like a mismatch of how we've been raised in terms of what we expect from women.
[00:17:45] Speaker B: Yeah. And I kind of. Me and Matt, so my partner Matt, we have kind of conversations around this. But it's interesting because I think he'll kind of feel that. That sort of pressure from, like, you say, having to meet those certain expectations, like being a provider and so on. But then he has two older sisters that he grew up with, and so he saw this more, I guess, kind of strong, you know, powerful women kind of doing what they want to do and so on. So he almost had, like, two sides of that. So one, like, being quite progressive, in a sense, and kind of learning from his sisters and then really valuing women within society. Society. But then, like you say, not having any support or instruction about his own, I guess, identity as a man. And also, you know, how that impacts things like how they express, like, their emotions and how they understand themselves. And I think that's something that a lot of guys I know don't really start to understand until, like, later on in. In their life where they feel more comfortable in accepting of expressing those emotions.
[00:18:53] Speaker A: And this is what we talk about, like, and I hate having to justify it by saying, like, patriarchy is bad for men too, but this is an example of it. And it's actually something I've been thinking a lot about recently is women are both socially trained, but also, like, in their relationships with other girls and women to be very emotionally competent to seek help when they need it to, even when it comes down to cognitive load. So have that have cognitive capabilities for multitasking, organization, organizing households, doing laundry, figuring out what's for dinner. Men are, like, not really necessarily raised. And that's a massive letdown for men. It's. But it puts the burden on women to provide all of that. But it's. We should think more of men, that they are capable. We should be raising them with emotional intelligence, cognitive capabilities to do all this stuff. And it just results in this. Like, there's loads of research out now saying that the people. Well, when you're looking at kind of heterosexual marriages between a man and a woman, women die earlier, they get sick earlier.
They're much less happy if they're in a marriage. And this is current for the last, like, what, 10, 20 years or something like that. Whereas men are happier, they live longer. And that's because you've got a woman going, go to the doctor. They're there for that person as like their emotional confidant, which is part of a relationship. Right. That's. Now, I'm not saying that's a bad thing.
And they're doing all this cognitive and emotional labor. The woman, on the other hand, is. Nowadays, most people have to work. It's just the state of the world. But even if, you know, her primary role is a housewife, where she's doing all of the cooking, cleaning, you know, and labor and stuff like that, that's still a 247 job.
But essentially, women are providing all this emotional, cognitive, and domestic labor. And so now we're getting to a point where women are going, I don't really care, because the research is saying women are happier alone than they are in marriages.
[00:20:58] Speaker B: So I was just thinking about that because my sister always reminds me of that because, well, she's a very, very happy single woman. And she always reminds me that single women are, like, the happiest.
[00:21:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:12] Speaker B: And I'm like, okay, thank you.
[00:21:14] Speaker A: Good to know. Thanks.
But it's. It is true, because you don't have. You're just looking after yourself. You're not a lot of. A lot of. And I'm not saying this to be mean, but in just saying the truth, a lot of men have not been raised. They've. They've been raised with the idea of a certain role that we were describing. And in return for providing that role, they get emotional, domestic, cognitive labor like men. A lot of. Now, this is different, maybe for our generation, but I would say. Actually, I don't even know, because I. We're. We have good people. But some of the stuff I see and people I talk to, I'm like, oh, it's rough out there.
But I feel like a Lot. So I won't say men, but a lot of men aren't even raised to like women, even like them as people. They, you know, there's so much stuff on there. I think I even saw a TikTok recently that was like, guys, I recommend, highly recommend networking with women and like, and establishing a relationship with them. I'm like, you're literally describing what friendship you are describing, like what one year are we in? Yeah, I know.
[00:22:24] Speaker B: Like, it makes me think of what you said right at the beginning around like women being seen as objects and perhaps that's that sort of perspective that these kind of men are having rather than it being a relationship or a. I was going to say collaboration. I can't think of the better word for that, but it is more.
[00:22:43] Speaker A: Yeah, well, yeah, like it's supposed to be a relationship. If that's. Now I want to be clear here where I'm saying like it's a relationship means both parties are equal in the cognitive and emotional labor they're providing. When you're looking at labor in terms of physical labor, those are conversations that you need to be having with your partner. But it needs to be a conversation. So whether you know, you're both working full time and then you split household duties and child care duties, or one person is working full time while the other does all the household duties. But just because you get home from work doesn't mean that you don't have to unload the dishwasher. There's, it's still, you know, just like. But it needs to be a conversation.
But I think one of the things that I, I kind of wanted to touch on was how you were talking about the beginning like 26 minutes ago, how you were, how you were saying how you felt like this need to perform the specific identity that we were talking about last week around what your gender is in these very male dominated environments. And one of the things in our systematic review, right now we're writing a systematic review about sexism and women's. Oh my God. Women's experiences of sexism in sport. And one of the things that I just, that just popped into my head yesterday while I was re going through the data was women are constantly having to police their kind of portrayal of their. Themselves are. We touched on it a little bit last week. It's obviously way worse for women of marginalized identities. So there were a lot of black women saying like, I felt like I, you know, had to really do something specific with my mannerisms or hair to tone down my identity as a Black woman, things like that. So we're required to fit in and to be safe, perform these very specific feminine identities. But when you're working in these environments, you're not taken seriously if you are performing these identities because you're that traditional woman who is supposed to not have that ability to challenge the intelligence. And so by existing in some of these environments in the first place, it's hostile to patriarchy and so you're likely to get more hostile sexism.
So it's a weird balance of, okay, well, yeah, I have to control myself to minimize my femininity. But then I'm portraying like the stereotype of somebody who might be a threat to patriarchy. And so that welcomes more hostile sexism. And it's just like this constant annoying circle.
[00:25:24] Speaker B: Totally. And then this makes it so difficult then to call it out. Right. And when I think about it like the one. Well, one of the times I called out sexism in a kind of environment I was working with was when I was just about to leave, like I was just about to leave the job. And that's when I said, look, I've seen X, Y and Z happening. Like, I'm kind of not comfortable with this, like as a female.
And even then I felt bad about it and I felt worried about what other people would think, like if I was being, you know, really kind of stuck up or whatever. But ultimately that was when other members of staff were objectifying kind of women again, women's.
[00:26:09] Speaker A: It's so gross. Like, why are you doing that in the workplace? Like, why, why, why, why do you, why do you feel so comfortable doing that that you're literally just doing it in the workplace? That's crazy to the confidence.
And that's, that's an interesting point. So like, maintaining this doesn't just require like individual men to like consciously put women down. It requires that compliance from everyone there. So that's from like women with internalized misogyny men allowing and also like engaging in this the systems around not punishing this behavior. And then to that in the end, like justifies it and like, oh, well then it's just part of the culture. It's just like, well, it's just part of what we have to deal with, you know.
[00:26:59] Speaker B: Yes, totally. And then like you say, then there's that, I guess, kind of worry from, well say like in my experience, then if I'm not saying anything like, like you just said it then feels like I'm saying this is okay, that I'm accepting it. And I think this Took me down a bit of a.
I don't know, journey of trying to figure out how do we safely call this stuff out?
And I know that you and I kind of do this in quite different ways. Right.
[00:27:30] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I think we have. We have so many. I think that's why it works. We've got really different approaches, but similar value systems and ideas that back up our approaches. And that's why I think it's quite interesting.
You do a great job. Like, almost like what we talked about last week. Like, you're very good at framing things in ways that maybe reduce cognitive dissonance and maybe make somebody feel like, I get it, but look at it this way. Whereas I'm just like, maybe a little bit more aggressive about it.
I look like a wing on.
[00:28:05] Speaker B: I wish I was more like that.
[00:28:07] Speaker A: No, and I wish I was better at, you know, like, making people not feel, I don't know. Challenge. I don't know.
[00:28:15] Speaker B: But I think it is. It's that fine balance of, like, not, like, feeling like you're treading on eggshells too much, but then, like you say, I guess also recognizing that we might be making people feel very uncomfortable, but then it's kind of like, well, you. We should be making you feel uncomfortable if you are being sexist within any sort of environment. Right?
[00:28:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:28:37] Speaker B: But I think for me, it was more. I. I think I was worried about being challenged and worried about not having enough information or, like a good enough argument about why I was challenging this behavior, which seems a little bit ridiculous, but, like, that's. That's how I felt.
[00:28:53] Speaker A: But that's how the systems made you feel. So, like, yeah, you were clearly in a system where, you know, the research we do. Oh, well, they'll just reframe it as banter. In our research, over 65% of the time it was rephrased as just joking or banter. So that really invalidates your experience. So it's no wonder you're like, well, especially in those environments, in these sporting environments, you can't be just like, oh, well, here's this article that says xyz. They're just going to walk away. So you have to say it in a way that fits their brain. And you know what? I don't want to do that.
[00:29:29] Speaker B: Yeah, no, totally. And I feel that. And I guess what.
Maybe the way I tried to adapt, I think it can't. What it was, it was some sort of online cpd and we were talking about, like, calling out sexism.
And I think they were suggesting Kind of approaching it more with curiosity. So kind of asking, why did you say it in that way? Or even just why did you say that at all? Like, I'm just interested. Like, what did you mean by that?
Which I think can be good for, like, reducing the cognitive dissonance and perhaps opening up more of a conversation around it. But then almost like, at the same time, it opens up. Like you just said, it opens up that answer for it to be like, oh, I was just joking about it.
[00:30:18] Speaker A: It's like, a really fine line for me between, okay, well, we need to improve learning. This is. This is what's always in my head. Like, how do we make change? So we need to improve and better learning. But also, I don't want to sit here and be like, come on, little sexist. You can do it. Like, I'll help you. Like, I know that's like. And I think because that's in the back of my head, even when I try your approach, like, can you tell me, like, why that's funny? For me, it comes across as, like, why do you think that's funny? You know what I mean? You could. You're laughing because you can literally picture it. Even.
[00:30:56] Speaker B: Even the first one sounded, like, angry.
[00:31:00] Speaker A: I was. I was trying to be so nice.
[00:31:03] Speaker B: No, that didn't work.
[00:31:04] Speaker A: Oh, well, that's good to know. Well, I'm gonna have to reflect on that later. That explains a lot.
[00:31:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:12] Speaker A: So you're just so much better at. And I wonder if that has to do with almost like, I don't know, like, expectations from men around how women talk. And so, like, I talk quite abruptly and could be the chisholm. Could just be me. You know, apparently, even when I think I'm talking in a very soft way, it's not.
[00:31:35] Speaker B: There's, like, an engagement piece to it. Right. Like, there. It. There kind of needs to be, like, a certain amount of openness and curiosity from the person in order to.
Yeah. Not just kind of shoot down anything that we might be saying. And I. I think that's kind of one of the things that maybe we just have to accept is that some people are just not ready or not in a space to hear about, you know, like, ambivalent sexism or, like, what it might look like or that actually they are engaging in sexist behaviors. Some people aren't in a space to hear that, whereas some people may be more open and willing to discuss. I guess the issue then comes to. The people who are open and willing to discuss are probably not necessarily the people that need to change the most.
[00:32:26] Speaker A: But they still. So that's a good point. But equally, they are equally as important to make changes. Because if we're talking in terms of men, men, unfortunately, and this is why I really don't think it shouldn't be our problem.
Men value the opinions of other men so much more. And this is supported anecdotally in research, etc, etc. If a male ally calls out another man, then that has way more power. The person is. The man is way more likely to change their behavior. And so if we have this group of people who might be on that cusp and then bringing them over to the more educated side that is more aware and then they're using that privilege to then go and do good, that's great. That's my group for sure.
[00:33:19] Speaker B: Our male allies. Right?
[00:33:21] Speaker A: Yeah. Sorry, I keep muting because I'm blowing my nose because I'm so. My cold is so bad right now.
[00:33:27] Speaker B: It's meant to be authentic and unmasked. We need to hear you blowing your nose.
[00:33:32] Speaker A: Blowing my nose, yeah. And I really don't like the term. I had a conversation earlier this summer about the term ally. Like, because it should just be common sense. Like, it. Like, I hate the people, like, almost weaponize ally. Like, oh, I, you know, I support XYZ community and yay, I'm an ally. Like, well, okay, are you actually doing work or are you saying the words?
[00:33:59] Speaker B: And maybe this kind of made me think about, I suppose, myself. And I remember trying to open up these conversations more with people around, like, sexism and what sexism is. And I found it really difficult. And I started to realize that a lot of the people around me actually had very different ideas about what sexism was and how they experienced it. And I, I tried to kind of do have these conversations for a while until I just felt quite overwhelmed and confused about why. For example, I believe that, you know, and from a lot of our conversations, like, I believe that you can only be sexist, like towards a woman. Whereas the other people I spoke to were very much against this and were like, well, of course you can be sexist towards a man. I've seen this happening. And so I think that left me with like a sense of, yeah, confusion. And also what am I actually trying to achieve here with like, having these conversations.
[00:35:03] Speaker A: It's difficult because a lot of it is theory and terminology and vernacular. Like, they just, People just don't understand the difference. And it's not everyone's job to understand the difference between words. But I think it really is important for people to understand, just like you can't be racist to a white person, you can't be sexist to a man, because that is the power structure now. That's not saying you can't give that person a negative experience. That's not saying you can't discriminate. That's not saying that, you know, they, they, you know, you know, somebody didn't like them because they were a man. That's, that's totally, you know, possible. But it's not sexism. It's different. It's, you know, there isn't this hundreds of year power dynamic and structural dynamic that influenced that behavior.
[00:35:56] Speaker B: It's still prejudice and, or discrimination, but it's not sexism.
[00:36:02] Speaker A: I want to get back to what you were saying about objectification, because that is a massive way of controlling and policing women's bodies. So obviously this is a massive issue in the world right now. It's an issue in the States, which it shouldn't be. It's, you know, a worse issue in other countries that, you know, really have negative approaches to gender. And policing women's bodies does happen through hostile and benevolent sexism with the hostile side. It's almost like depicting women who act outside these traditional gender roles as like using their sexuality to overthrow men's power. That's literally the idea.
The eye roll was strong there.
If anyone who's just listening and not watching the eye roll from Laura was just. That was probably the best one I've ever seen. Amazing. Basically what this does is saying, like, women can't be sexual creatures because that just means they're gonna use their bodies to control men. Because again, patriarchy just views men as these helpless creatures that are also somehow supposed to defend and protect us. From who? Men. But it also minimizes sexual aggression towards women. So you're allowed to be sexually aggressive towards women because they can't if they're dressed in a short skirt. If they're doing xyz, it's an excuse to essay somebody that underpins that myth that shouldn't walk alone at night, that they should, you know, not dress in short skirts, that they shouldn't initiate sexual activity on their own. Right. You know, all these things mean that they're asking for it.
And that's how, that's how women's bodies are often controlled, through hostile sexism.
[00:37:59] Speaker B: Yes. Okay. That makes so much sense. And it also makes me think about, right, the.
We're going to talk about this more another time, but this, like, witch's angle too.
[00:38:10] Speaker A: Oh, next week. Next week.
[00:38:11] Speaker B: Like if you are that's that sort of person, then.
Well, if you. Not if you're that sort of person, but if you are, you know, dressing in a certain way and that's how you want to dress, then people often kind of give you these, these labels, these really negative labels.
Or like you say, like men will think that, you know, we're dressing for them rather than for ourselves or like for our friends or like, have a good time. And then like you say, like, this can kind of lead to some of these more negative consequences, whether that is going more towards like sexual abuse or if it is in terms of minimum females kind of minimizing, I guess, them being their authentic self and actually wearing what they want to wear and kind of being free in that sense. I guess this all comes down to that point of freedom.
[00:39:01] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a, that's an anti concept when we're talking about patriarchy. Because how are you gonna, you know, maintain the power structure if women have freedom to actually do what they want to do?
And it can help it in the benevolent side as well. The threat of that violence that I just spoke about leads women to seek that male protection because that's how we're supposed to get it. We can't protect ourselves. I mean, that would just be very anti gender roles. We can't learn, you know, martial arts firstly, we shouldn't have to. We shouldn't, you know, learn all that kind of stuff.
So benevolent sexism really like views women as like what we were kind of talking about before. It increases the dependence within the relationships because it meet like. Sorry, let me get my thought out. I've got, I've already like moved on in my thoughts, tying it all together with objectification. But in benevolent sexism, when it comes to women's bodies, it tries to value their body in terms of childbirth and their intimate relationships with their single partner. And that's how it values them there.
And so women are more likely to seek out a benevolent sexist rather than a hostile sexist person because it's safer. And all they have to do is provide some emotional and cognitive labor, you know, the, you know, risk the safety of their bodies through childbirth, like all that kind of stuff.
[00:40:36] Speaker B: The main thing that kind of resonated with me was just this idea of like you say that emotional, cognitive labor that we're kind of putting ourselves through and like you say, physical labor, but to what, to what gain we're doing it? Like you say, for, I guess, for perceived safety of kind of benevolent sexism in A way. But then also, you know, I guess that's the thing. It's like, what else are you getting from that relationship, from that partnership? And are you also getting emotional support from that person?
Are you also being given kind of freedom to be yourself and explore who you are and not get stuck in certain kind of gender roles? So I think it's the thing. It's like in relationships, yeah, of course there is going to be a certain amount of like, say, emotional labor.
But are you also getting supported back within that relationship? Is that something you're willingly giving?
I suppose or not? Is that just kind of a role that you've gotten yourself stuck in?
[00:41:48] Speaker A: Yeah, it's, it's. Is this design, is this relationship designed to keep me in a more subordinate role or is it designed to make us equal partners? And that's like the kind of question we need to ask. And that's what objectification does. So really sexualizing women's bodies, that's what it does, is just makes it clear that we're the ones who are the subordinates in the role. You don't see. I mean, obviously I'm not saying that women don't appreciate looking at men's bodies or objectify them or anything like that. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is at a societal level, women's bodies are objectified one way or another and they are looked at as objects. Is it an object for sexual pleasure or is it an object for, you know, providing children?
And so it all kind of ties in and then we can like tie that in again to like the economic and political resources that we're looking at. So like that's our, that's our interpersonal relationships. But then how does this impact like the broader stuff do you do use. Does anything pop into your head about how it might be impacted on that broader socio cultural level?
[00:42:59] Speaker B: Something is popping into my head. It's probably another tangent you mentioned towards the beginning of the podcast around a certain point in time, you know, not that long ago, like women not being able to have like their own credit cards, for example. And then that made me think about kind of Handmaid's Tale kind of that sort of vibe. So it's the, your. You don't have accesses. Access to. Yeah. Your own money, you're not kind of financially independent. But then also linking back into this space part of like objectification as well, where women within kind of this, well, book slash TV series in Handmaid's Tale, they were also obviously being objectified and used Just for the purpose of producing children.
[00:43:50] Speaker A: Right, yeah, yeah. It really filters through down to that, like, individual consequence, but, like, for the broader sociological reason. So women, basically, we talk about it a bit in what we do. So women have to basically choose between being liked and being respected or being liked or being disrespect. Oh, my God, my coffee's wearing off.
Being liked and being respected and going back to what you were saying. So, like, starting at that benevolent side. So benevolent sexism makes women rely into. On men as their benevolent protectors. So men are in charge of providing for women, but they must enforce this through not allowing women to work, have bank accounts, vote, participate in society.
Like I said, I want to do a episode on, like, bicycle face and how that was used as a way to stop women from voting. Like, even just the idea that women wearing trousers is bad is part of that benevolent sexism. Like, women, if you dress in these really restrictive clothing, then you can't ride your bicycle to get, you know, to protest or go vote or whatever. And so, like, that struck. Benevolent sexism plays a role in keeping women in this. These roles. And then we've got hostile sexism, which is kind of where women have to work much harder to demonstrate traits that are typically thought of as male, but they're not male. They're just male coded by our society. Either you're a leader or you're aggressive, that kind of thing. And, you know, all the experiences we've kind of talked about women in the workplace.
And then the hostile sexism would also be like just the blatant, you know, exclusion of women from things like sports and double standards and all that kind of stuff.
[00:45:46] Speaker B: Mm. Mm. And it does just make you think around, like, all the things that were happening kind of at the Olympics this year. So what, like a couple months ago, was it? So whether that is around kind of what the kind of female athletes are wearing, like, in certain sports, or whether it is, like, you say this challenging what, like, a typical representation of a woman is. So I think there's a lot of themes there that come through from more of a sporting angle that we are still.
Still really battling against and still trying to get more understanding from. Yeah, from people about.
[00:46:30] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, those double standards range from, like you said, uniforms all the way through to who was allowed to participate. I mean, there was the men's volleyball player from. Was it Denmark or something like that. Sa'd a minor and he was allowed to participate in the Olympics. And then we had several black women runners who were staying off The Olympic Village, just for. For their own reasons, weren't told that they were supposed to be in there. They changed the rules and weren't allowed to warm up for their race. So, like, these double standards of, like, you can literally commit one of the worst crimes ever and you're allowed to play, you're accommodated. And then you literally didn't see a rule change. You just slept in a different bed. And we are going to negatively impact the most important performance of your life. And then we've got the whole gymnastics side, the US Gymnastics. It was a interesting Olympics and definitely a for the MO for the first gender equal Olympics for athletes. It was still very much evident how there are so many differences.
[00:47:44] Speaker B: Yes, for sure. And even if it is equal in that respect, it's not that there isn't still kind of sexism within that environment and racism and so on.
[00:47:56] Speaker A: Well, just because it's equal numbers, that doesn't mean anything, really, if they're not changing how they're doing things.
[00:48:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I was just kind of thinking, like, maybe almost as a way to just like, wrap up. I was thinking there might be a lot of people listening to this and feeling a lot of rage and feeling a lot of. I don't know, maybe it's creating more questions than we have actually answered because that tends to be what we like to do, is create questions.
But I'm wondering, like, I don't know, like, how can people maybe go away from this with a sense of being able to do something or being able to, I don't know, make some sort of progress with all of these kind of barriers that we're facing with kind of sexism at the moment.
[00:48:48] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it depends on the person. I think everyone copes in different ways. The most common thing I've seen is, like, building community, talking about it.
[00:48:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:49:00] Speaker A: It's always nice to feel that you're not alone in these situations. It's not because of you, it's because of the systems.
And I would say challenge it where you're safe to do so. But I would like to emphasize that that is not always the case. As we have discussed several times throughout this, engaging in challenging can take a lot. Firstly, a lot out of you. From an emotional and cognitive standpoint, that's a lot of labor and also really tiring and stressful. Secondly, it might not be physically safe. So those are our things to consider. But. Yeah. What are your thoughts?
[00:49:38] Speaker B: Yes, well, 100% agree with you on that side of considering your own kind of emotional and physical safety first.
But I think one of the things that's really helped me is that she just speaking with so you so Kristen and then our colleague Amy about this sort of stuff. And I think what that has done for me is it's allowed me to kind of almost like recognize I'm not just being ridiculous. Like I'm not just seeing these things, I'm not just being like a crybaby about it. So it's almost like helped me to not minimize those experiences of sexism that I have either had or witnessed. Because I think also witnessing sexism can be something that is, is stressful in and of itself because there's a lot of that questioning around what do I do? Like, how do I support, how do I do this safely? So I think if you can find people who you do feel comfortable to have these conversations with, it makes such a big difference. I think just in accepting and validating your own experiences.
[00:50:49] Speaker A: Your statement just made me think of two things. So a lot of what we do when we're writing papers for peer review and stuff is you have to justify why your research is important, obviously because everything is embedded, embedded in a patriarchal system. We also have to justify why it might be good for men.
So sexism is negative for everyone. Witnessing sexism can be really stressful and negative for well being for women, but it also is for men. So no matter who you are seeing this very obvious inequality or unobvious inequality between people is negative for your mental health.
That's like including your emotional and psychological wellbeing. So that's number one. Number two, we talk a lot about minimizing women's experiences, maybe from an organizational point of view. So like not providing pathways for support or just telling them it's, you know, part of the process and like an interpersonal side. So like it's just banter, stuff like that. But I think we can internalize that a lot. So everyone has a bit of internalized misogyny, even if you're a woman, because we grew up in this system and it's just so we can almost gaslight ourselves into thinking this is normal. This is just part of what I'm supposed to experience. So I'm really happy that you brought that up because don't minimize your own experiences. It's okay to have a problem with experiences that you're uncomfortable with. Now that can range. So if you're uncomfortable with an experience that you should be uncomfortable with, like, as in like, oh, I'm just challenging myself a little bit to think a bit broader about this, that's fine, engage with that. But if you're, like, super uncomfortable because you're like, there's just something wrong about this, it's good to, like, not gaslight yourself about that. So I feel like I've just, like, opened another can of worms.
[00:52:40] Speaker B: Don't gaslight yourself.
[00:52:42] Speaker A: Don't gaslight yourself. I know. It's so hard to know what to say, though, because a lot of this terminology that we use and what we say, if taken out of context, can be used to justify, like, bad behavior. So I feel like I'm not moderating myself much. But then I'm going, oh, should I have said that?
[00:52:59] Speaker B: It's all. Again, like, it's all. As we build more experiences with these things and talk more about it and understand how other people manage it, that we can kind of start to come to a place where we feel like we have a way of managing that we're comfortable with. Like we said before, like, I deal with this stuff in a very different way to how you deal with it. It's not like a right or wrong. Just like, that's how we sit with it. Like, that's how we manage it. So I think kind of reflecting on that stuff is. Is useful, but then equally, it can be quite a stressful process to do that.
[00:53:36] Speaker A: So, yeah, definitely.
I suppose that's a good way to close.
Next week, we will be talking about witches and surprise. That's also sexism, but it's also fun to talk about in the context of Halloween. So we're going to be talking about it. But as always, we have answered the but why of ambivalent sexism, but we are left with many more questions.
So thank you for listening to the but why podcast.
You can find us at but why pod on TikTok and Instagram and I am Dr. Kristen on Instagram and Twitter. No, that's not true. TikTok and Laura is elusive.
[00:54:20] Speaker B: And that's it. Oh, and we're gonna say, like, subscribe and. Oh, yeah, in probably a more excited way than that. In general, just give us some feedback. Like, please comment. Ask us questions. Like, we'd love to engage with conversations about this stuff because obviously we enjoy talking about it and getting different perspectives. So, yes, absolutely.
[00:54:44] Speaker A: We love your perspectives.
I am open to constructive criticism currently.
[00:54:52] Speaker B: At this point in time.
[00:54:53] Speaker A: At this point in time.
[00:54:54] Speaker B: Just a small amount.
[00:54:55] Speaker A: Just a small amount. As we build our confidence, like saying our thoughts to the world.
Thanks for listening. Bye.
