Burnout in the Modern World

[00:00:16] Speaker A: Welcome to the but why Podcast, where we explore the human experience through a psychological lens by asking but why? I'm Dr. Kristen. [00:00:25] Speaker B: And I'm Dr. Laura. And today we're exploring burnout. [00:00:30] Speaker A: Ooh, slightly topical. [00:00:31] Speaker B: Yay. I love the reason for doing this topic. Well, we were like, let's do something fun. And then somehow we were like, burnout. I have no idea how that happened. We were like, we really should do a more light hearted topic this week. But it didn't happen. [00:00:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Because we struggled to think of anything light hearted. So if anyone has anything super light hearted for us to talk about that might be informative or just funny, even that that's useful because I think sometimes we're so, like ingrained in this side of things that it's hard to step outside of it. Yeah. And also we want to provide something useful to people. We don't want to just be like, let's talk about walking around outside, something fun. You know what I mean? Even though there is a lot of literature talking about, that's the fun thing. [00:01:24] Speaker B: Walking around outside. That's so much. [00:01:29] Speaker A: I literally couldn't think of anything. I honestly don't remember how we came to this conversation. And we were trying. So Laura and I are not awkward at all. We're super normal. We were like, oh, we probably, like, should have like some small talk before we start. That doesn't last maybe 20 minutes, but something. How do we small talk? What do we talk about? And everything was like, came back to burnout. Yeah. We do have to plan our small talk. Yeah. [00:01:56] Speaker B: Literally everything. I think everything comes back to burnout. So, yeah, this weekend was. I. Yeah. So what was last night? Actually, I had to go play tennis. And you didn't get hit in the. [00:02:06] Speaker A: Head this time, do you? [00:02:07] Speaker B: 5:00Pm I didn't get hit in the head this time. I didn't. But before I went, I was like, I felt so stressed. Had like major heart palpitations. I was trying to watch that new animated film to relax me. What's it called? Spellbound. [00:02:19] Speaker A: Oh, nice. [00:02:20] Speaker B: I only got halfway through, but it was quite nice. But I was just sat there like my chest being like. And I was like, crap, like, I've got to go play tennis. Anyway, so then I went and played tennis and I don't know, it was dark. So we had the floodlights on and there was just this group of, you know, like those worst groups of, like, teenage boys when they're like, I don't know, 13, 14, and they just think, like, they're so cool. The youth of today and they like come round, like start like rattling the fences and like, just like saying things that aren't like overtly like rude, but they're just like taking the piss. So they'll just be saying things like, you, oh, I'm just going to stand here, watch. I want to watch you serve. And then you'll serve and then they'll make noises and it's like, oh my God, will you please leave? And they just kept wandering around the courts and eventually I was like, no. So I went over to them and I had a bit of a go and I told them I was going to like, call the police. Then they left. [00:03:18] Speaker A: Oh my God, that's amazing. What did they do? [00:03:21] Speaker B: I just. Well, they looked at me, you know, when they, when kids do, they're like, oh, you're going to call the police. They did that and made fun of me a bit. [00:03:29] Speaker A: No. Which hit my ego palpitations. [00:03:33] Speaker B: Probably not, you know, probably not. But they did leave consequently, so I'll take that as a win. [00:03:40] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a win. Because of course if they're like a 13 year old boy, they have to be defensive. They can't just be like, oh, sorry, bye. They're going to be like, but you are. What am I? Kind of vibes. [00:03:50] Speaker B: My gosh. Literally it makes me so angry. Like I'm like, at tennis I'm usually like the most calm person, but if anyone's like rude or like unfair about something, then I would get really angry. [00:04:04] Speaker A: You know what that sounds like? [00:04:07] Speaker B: Yeah, we all know what that sounds like. [00:04:10] Speaker A: Oh my God. Did you like, was it like anxiety. [00:04:12] Speaker B: Heart palpitations before shouting at the youth? Yeah, I think it might have been. But what I always struggle to notice with like heart palpitation stuff is like, is it, I don't know, is it being caused or getting worse due to the anxiety? Like, because I'm thinking about it, am I now creating anxiety or was that anxiety there in the first place that I've just labeled as heart palpitations? Do you know what I mean? [00:04:42] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. I, I struggle. So it's one of the reasons. So I have had like heart palpitations and chest pains for the last like maybe three, four years. It's hard to place time right now with COVID and it's one of the reasons I sought my autism diagnosis because I, like, I'm. I feel like I'm just stressed all the time and I can't figure out why. And I think definitely some of it is anxiety. But then I've recently learned, like, literally in the last few weeks, that it's also from something called GERD and basically stress from a lifetime of masking and autistic burnout, which we will cover later in this episode. My stomach basically dissolved in, like, the layer of protection between your stomach and your esophagus. And so it was dissolved by the acid in my stomach. So now it comes up into my esophagus and gives me, like, chest pain and heart palpitations, and it can make your asthma worse and stuff like that. So at least now I know what it is. Yeah, well, you know what's frustrating is it's so bad sometimes with especially women in medicine, as we all know. And basically, I had all these explorations. They didn't find anything. And so they're like, it's just, you know, it's anxiety. I'm like, okay, now what is that? Just, I just have to think. I'm having a heart attack once a week for, like, forever. And the nice thing is before. Well, I guess it wasn't nice then, but it's nice now. Before my diagnosis, I would have, like, a panic attack as a result, but goes back to that vicious cycle you were talking about. Like, is it anxiety causing it, or is this producing the anxiety? I would have a panic attack as a result of getting chest pains, and it would be horrible, horrible, horrible. But now that I've implemented things into my life that, you know, are support for my, you know, autistic needs, like those support needs, as well as, like, try to fix my autistic burnout, the panic reaction to the chest pains very rarely happens. And now I'm hoping, now that I know medically what it is, that it won't happen at all. But it just shows you how burnout and stress can have such physical implications on your body. It's not, and I say just in heavy quotes because the mental side's super important. But it's not just your mental health. It's your physical health as well. They're so related. There's so much research on that gut and brain connection and how connected they are, which could totally be an episode. It's something I'm really interested in. But, yeah, there's my. There's my oversharing about my health. [00:07:22] Speaker B: Love a good overshare, but I think it is. It's. It's one of the things that I actually find kind of scary, actually, is if I am having an experience like that, like, whether it's anxiety or heart palpitations or whatever, and Then I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is probably stress. And therefore this is something I'm, like, doing to myself. And like, that really frustrates me. I don't know why, because technically that shouldn't. Because then I'm like, this I should have more control over. But perhaps as we talk through some of the things today, it's like, yes, we have a degree of control, but actually, in reality, within the society that we live in, how much control do we actually have, how we manage our stress and our time and so on? [00:08:05] Speaker A: I think we can definitely tie it in to some of the stuff, especially some of the listener comments that have been submitted because that perfectionism can put so much pressure on you. And you're like, I have to solve the problem. Why am I doing this to myself? And it's almost like linking back into last week of okay, but actually, is it my fault? Is there something I individually can do? So, yeah, it's gonna be an interesting one. Oh, my God, my dog's just farted so bad. No, I'm like about. I'm like, oh, my God, what is that? I can't even stand up to open the window right now. [00:08:40] Speaker B: Grim Doug Fartsworth is the worst. I swear. [00:08:43] Speaker A: Laura, just say something. So while I'm wafting. [00:08:48] Speaker B: Okay, so whilst Kristin's wafting, we are actually very excited for this episode because we've actually have, like, comments in from listeners. So thank you for everyone who did, like, send us comments. We are going to read some of them today. So, yeah, thanks for sharing them with us. And we are excited to talk a little bit about them as we go through. [00:09:09] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. Now that I can actually talk again without almost, like, jacking. It actually was really cool to see the comments. I mean, it was kind of sad because we got so many comments and, like, people are so chronically burnt out, which. We'll talk about the reasons behind that. But it was actually really nice to get the context because it shows you that burnout can come from so many different directions and reasons. And it's such an individual experience, but also caused a lot by, you know, just as a society living in a world that we're not evolved for, but each person experiences it and it's caused by. For different reasons. So with that in mind, should I kind of introduce. Look at us. 10 minutes. Look at us go. [00:09:51] Speaker B: It's not a 20 perfection. [00:09:53] Speaker A: We said we should try not to do more than like 10, 12 minutes of small talk tangents, because while we have to, we have to, like, plan A small talk topic. Did I say that right? Small talk topic. It takes five seconds for us to go on a tangent. So look at us go. Very proud of us. Just going to give. Give ourselves a medal for this. [00:10:15] Speaker B: Yeah, or sticker started. [00:10:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:17] Speaker B: We can't stop. [00:10:18] Speaker A: No, we can't. Um, so what is burnout? And actually we did have a question, or I guess really a comment from a listener saying, I'm actually not entirely sure what burnout is because we had said postage, like, like, have you ever been burnt out? Tell us your stories. And they're like, well, what is it? And I had quite a few like that. And I had. And Jack had shared it to some colleagues and friends and a lot of them were just like, I don't know what that is, because I do think it can. [00:10:44] Speaker B: See, this is so interesting because I feel again like maybe just because we're on in this world of psychology, like burnout is just used so much in terms of term, almost like just kind of a blanket statement. So I suppose it's. Yeah, it's. You take it for granted. [00:11:00] Speaker A: I suppose we definitely take it for granted. And I think just because of the nature of our jobs and who we are, if we see a word like this, we almost feel like, okay, we need to wrap our head around it. We need to understand what it is. Whereas I think a lot of people, you know, it's not everyone's job to know like the etymology and like the actual definition of every single buzzword they come across. And so it's, you know, it's our. It's being in psych, but also going, okay, you know, having to be that exploratory. And I think burnout is such a buzzword that some people can almost bypass because it almost seems like a lot of the stuff that people have bias about towards mental health, like, like whimsical and like, just like not really important as a thing. It's like, oh, well, you're burnt out. So what? That's. Everyone is. Or it's not a real thing, it's just stress. But what burnout really is, it's a state of physical, emotional and psychological exhaustion caused by prolonged or excessive stre. Stress. So it's caused by stress. It often arises when somebody feels overwhelmed, emotionally drained, unable to meet the constant demands of life. This could be, you know, from work, from caregiving responsibilities, just any responsibility really. And over time, this can lead to reduced physical and or mental wellbeing, productivity, detachment and a sense of helplessness. And one of the things that really Bothers me about a lot of the burnout literature is its emphasis on productivity because we live in such a capitalist like world and it's like when in word in sport and we have to emphasize like, well, we should work on well being because it improves performance. It's the same vibe. So I added, you know, a lot of the other stuff from external research that, you know, just such focus on productivity and it bothers me anyway. But if we don't address burnout, it can lead to really serious consequences as we've already kind of touched on. So we're looking at chronic health issues, depression, anxiety and just an overall inability to function effectively in personal or like professional life. And I think this is interesting to link in with a comment that we have down the line about women in burnout because women experience 80% of chronic health issues and they also experience significantly more burnout than men. So I think there's definitely a link there. So we'll touch on that. Unless you want to chuck something in because you look like you're considering something. Right. And you have your thinking face on at the moment. [00:13:27] Speaker B: No, I was just thinking, oh, I wonder where those steps have come from. And then I was thinking, is it because women are more comfortable reporting being burnt out than men might be? Yeah, that's what I was thinking. [00:13:42] Speaker A: That's one of the smaller reasons, but not the main reasons. It's like it's a little baby one, but just to. [00:13:50] Speaker B: Tiny baby reasons. [00:13:51] Speaker A: Tiny baby reason, but just to quickly touch on what burnout looks and feels like. So it's one thing to have a definition, but actually what does this look like in real life? So we have loads of different ways to categorize this. So physical symptoms. If you are burnt out, it could look like chronic fatigue or exhaustion. Like this just all. Maybe not even active tiredness. Sometimes active tiredness like that exhaustion. Or sometimes just like, just like feeling just like tired. It can have headaches. Almost sounds like your concussion symptoms from last week that you were talking. [00:14:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I know. This is the thing. It's like, what's wrong with me? I don't know. Concussion or burnout. One or the other. One or the other. [00:14:28] Speaker A: Or bald. Yeah, headaches, muscle pain and sleep disturbances. So this can look different for everyone because their physical body is so different. So what? Emphasize that sleep disturbance means a change or disturbance in your normal sleep patterns. Emotional and psychological symptoms. We're looking at feelings of failure or self doubt and just like almost maybe not knowing where these feelings are coming from, an overall loss of motivation or enthusiasm for your work or your life in general, increased irritability or cynicism, feeling detached, quite alone, you know, not really feeling that social well being that we talked about in the mental health episode. And overall just kind of like dips or kind of spiky as we say in profile, but like ups and downs in emotional, social and psychological well being. So that's kind of like inside that emotional, psychological side. And then we have what to look for in behaviors, because sometimes seeing those internal experience isn't that easy. So behaviorally it might look like withdrawing from your responsibilities and this could look like avoidance. So like procrastinating or taking way longer to complete tasks. And I want to emphasize that it's not procrastinating in the sense of like, there's something bad about it. There's a reason for your procrastination. You're not just like, oh, well, I'd rather watch a movie instead of work today. It's more like tied to the executive dysfunction that we will discuss later. Burnout can also look like turning to either food, drugs, alcohol to cope and kind of like moderate that dopamine response in your brain. And then again like skipping work, neglecting personal commitments. And I think that's one of the things that other people notice maybe even before you do. Like why, why has Laura missed three days in a row? She was supposed to be in the office. Things like that. [00:16:21] Speaker B: You see, I feel like I just couldn't do that because that would make me feel so guilty and just even worse if I ended up missing things or canceling things. But then I feel like that just then perpetuates the cycle. [00:16:35] Speaker A: It really does. Yeah. Because it's not really an option. What you really need to heal from burnout, which we'll talk about kind of towards the end of the episode, is kind of like a reset, a mental and physical, almost like taking that break. But that doesn't really work, especially in countries that don't necessarily have like sick leave or a good portion of holidays or vacation days. And I would say that skipping work or neglecting personal commitments sounds kind of like a big thing. But what it could look like is, okay, if your burnout is heavily work focused and that's where you're putting all of your efforts. I'd say that the skipping and neglecting would probably happen more on that personal side. So you're neglecting whether that's enjoying activities that you type, you know, find fun, not messaging people back, you know, not engaging in that social well being portion. So just I think that it looks so different for everyone. It's more about taking that broad picture of your life and looking okay, where is this? And recognizing that. So, so that's what you look for generally in burnout. If you're already burnt out, that's what it starts looking like. So basically you're feeling and behaving like really stressed, maybe in pain, not sleeping well, maybe feeling a bit of like anxiety or what would be like maybe coined as anxiety or depression symptomology. So that's why it's kind of hard to diagnose burnout. And then maybe as a picture to other people it looks like you're becoming neglectful, but that's not really what's happening. [00:18:12] Speaker B: And then I guess, well, I guess we can then talk about like what are some of the common causes of this? So what might kind of lead us to experiencing kind of some of these symptoms. So an obvious one I suppose is just like work related stress. So like we said at the beginning, so it's like excessive stress which is often leading to burnout. So work related stress, maybe it's excessive workload or even things like having unclear job expectations. And I feel like with this it sometimes just means you'd end up taking on everything under the sun and like saying yes to everything because you feel like that's what you should be doing or need to be doing rather than actually having that clarity around kind of what is, what is your role. Another one under kind of work related stress is lack of recognition or reward for your efforts. And I often think of this as like feeling valued as well. I think that can link quite a lot to this feeling of like helplessness or uselessness in a sense. So actually I'm doing all of this stuff, but nobody cares. I'm getting, no, don't feel like I'm valued in this, in this space. [00:19:30] Speaker A: I think, can I just, can I just jump in there real quick so otherwise I'll forget. I think it really ties into, that's another thing that ties into that social wellbeing aspect. And so like being valued is a core tenant of our psychology that we've evolved and it's something that we need. But as well in work, lack of recognition or reward for your efforts means that you're not getting promoted, you're not progression progressing, maybe you're working your ass off, somebody else is getting promoted for various factors often happens to more marginalized groups. And so that constant, you know, running in circles but then not being compensated, you know, whether that looks like increase in Pay increase in role can have a real stressful impact on your broader life because, you know, to be able to engage in the things you like, sometimes you need a bit more money and usually if you get recognized and you're promoted, you get more time off and you're able to, you know, do all. So I think that's a massive link. So you got the social wellbeing and also the more practical aspects of that. [00:20:38] Speaker B: That is such a good point. Yes. Yeah. And I think in so many kind of jobs nowadays, I feel like this idea of progression and promotion seems to be even more difficult to come by. And it even ends up being that, I don't know if you're working on more of a commission basis that that's getting worse or your targets are getting even more difficult to kind of meet. So I think that, yeah, nowadays that progression can be challenging, especially when like I was talking to someone, my uncle actually was talking, we were talking about kind of the university in the, in the UK at the moment and how there's been quite a lot of people kind of being let off and things. And actually they tend to be getting rid of the people in the higher positions because they are the people who obviously have the highest salary. And so that's almost like, almost like a flip on this in that if you're in that higher position it can be more dangerous because you're easier to kind of like go off. [00:21:41] Speaker A: That's so true. And tying into that, at least in academia, that's one of the reasons it's so hard to find an entry level or like a secondary level position. So for us, maybe like a level 8 is because all of these people in the higher up positions are getting let go and then they're going. Most people can't afford to not live in this world and not to not live, to not work. [00:22:05] Speaker B: I was just nodding along then, like. [00:22:06] Speaker A: Yeah, sure Kristen, sure, sure, sure. Now you've got me wondering like how much bullshit I talk. And you're just like, all right, Kristen, whatever. [00:22:13] Speaker B: Yeah, true. I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't be. [00:22:16] Speaker A: Surprised but so many people have been let go from these positions because of like financial cuts. But then they're taking these kind of middle, middle, more middle level positions, making it difficult for everyone else to kind like, it's just like that natural life cycle of the growth system has been completely disrupted by this. And so that means that people who have just graduated or you know, are postdoc in their first entry level job are really struggling to find Anything taking on researcher roles that, you know, might tend to be meant for people still doing their doctorates or, you know. [00:22:54] Speaker B: Right. [00:22:55] Speaker A: So it's completely. It shows how that like decision at the top completely messes with like the ecosystem and the culture. So that was just like a little tangent that popped into my head. [00:23:06] Speaker B: Yeah, no, it's a good point. And I guess that links into kind of another cause which is around more of that kind of the workplace dynamics and whether that's like conflicts or like micromanagement or even like this like differences in kind of. Yeah. How people are employed or in what spaces people are employed in. And kind of. It's almost as well. It probably goes back to that kind of value piece. But yeah. Am I in a job that is kind of equal to like my skills and my abilities and my qualifications or whatever that might be? And I think that if we do go into a job where we feel like actually this doesn't match like my capabilities or maybe I'm being asked to do like menial things that I feel like I go beyond, then I can imagine that can be. Yeah. A cause of stress as well. [00:23:58] Speaker A: Absolutely. I mean, so much of this ties into each of the well being factors that comprise mental health. And just that alone ties into that psychological well being piece of purpose. And that's why you can see in burnout the psychological well being dipping. And you're not feeling like you're doing what you want or need to be doing. And that's such a massive sign of burnout. So it definitely, I would say, contributes. Mm. [00:24:24] Speaker B: And then maybe just to go on to lifestyle factors, this might things be things like working too much without taking time for yourself, without taking time to relax and socialize. It might be a lack of supportive relationships or even just taking on too many responsibilities, which is something that we do all the time and do way too much. [00:24:45] Speaker A: Because what's the, what's the other option? You know what I mean? [00:24:49] Speaker B: Yeah. That's why, like, I think someone told me once what the other option was, but I forget what it is. [00:24:55] Speaker A: The other option is to be born into a significantly wealthy family and have a trust fund. And I was thinking about it and I was like, actually I don't think I have as many boundaries as I do because I have boundaries with maybe people who are just kind of like in my orbit. But when it comes to like maybe the people we work with a lot, who we like working with, and we get a lot of meaning from that, I don't think that I apply the same boundaries to that, and then you end up taking on way too many tasks. Does that make sense? [00:25:33] Speaker B: I think so. So, like, with maybe more unfamiliar people, it's easier to kind of say no and to put those boundaries in place. But with people that you know and do a lot of work with, there's almost this want to give more and to support them. But by doing that, sometimes we can give. Not give too much of ourselves, but can, oh, maybe give too much of ourselves when there isn't enough to give. Right. [00:25:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Because we all have a certain amount of cognitive and physical capacity. And it almost like contradicts what we were saying in the psychological safety episode. How, say our group of the three of us, and then there's like the broader team involved here and there. But we do so much research together. We all feel psychologically safe to draw boundaries if we really need and to like, say what our expertise are. But at the same time, even though we feel we probably could because of, we know we enjoy it and we find meaning and we want to support those people we maybe don't like, for example, just like any project, because we love the ideas that each other have as well. So, like, even the paper we're writing right now about autism, and I know that it's really busy, it's such a busy time of year, and talking, you know, to one group member saying, like, you, I feel bad that you took this on because I know you're so busy. And they were like, well, that's my job to, you know, kind of say no. And then I was like, how do we manage this? Because we don't want to be in charge of managing other people. It's just like, we have to learn. Yeah, sorry, I feel like I've gone on a really nonsensical tangent. [00:27:08] Speaker B: No, no, no, not at all. I think it. And it is as. Yeah, it's like, yes, managing ourselves and our own. Oh, sorry, if you can hear, Stanley. Like, yes, managing us and our own decisions. But almost like, how can we support other people? Like, how can we ask that question of other people as well? [00:27:27] Speaker A: Yeah, sorry. No, don't worry about it. So we've had an aggressive dog fart and some barking. So very dog focused episode. [00:27:35] Speaker B: What's going on? I don't know what's happening anymore. [00:27:37] Speaker A: We were talking about personality traits and relating that to, like, if you're. Especially if you're in like a really. A role that really revolves around performance, like whether that's sports or academia, sales, like all that kind of stuff. [00:27:53] Speaker B: Okay, okay. All Right, so to go on to like personality traits then. So these might be if you kind of are quite perfectionistic or have a need for control, if you have quite a pessimistic outlook on life, might be quite cynical about things. That tends to be me most of the time. [00:28:17] Speaker A: I call it Jack, sometimes calls me Debbie Downer and I'm like, no, I am realistic. Reggie. That is my name. [00:28:25] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. That's it. It's just being realistic, right? [00:28:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:31] Speaker B: But then we have things like being quite high achieving. So this might mean that you then I suppose kind of push more, do more, struggle more to say no to things, perhaps. And it might link to kind of type A personalities as well. So something else that we wanted to mention. So this isn't necessarily like a personality trait, but being raised as a people pleaser, shout out to all of my fellow people pleasers, hello. Or having attachment styles that cause you to constantly need to improve yourself. Yeah. So this can kind of come from a lot of different places and look very different for different people. So it's something that might be useful to reflect on in terms of whether you lean towards some of those tendencies. I think this is one of the reasons I struggle so much to say no, because I think it's like two part one, like, yes, I want to please people, but I also feel like I have this underlying, like, need to prove something. Like, to prove that I can do this thing even if it's not really related to what I care about or like, what I'm trying to develop with. So I do now try and ask myself, like, what am I getting from this? Like, if I say yes to this, like, what am I getting from it? Especially if it's something that falls outside of like your traditional kind of job role. [00:29:56] Speaker A: I think that's a really important thing to do because I think we're just, we're kind of like raised from societal expectations to just kind of like almost do as we're told in terms of like productivity and stuff like that. And that's just coming from a lot of cultural expectations and a lot of the stuff we were talking about, you know, how the 1900s really saw a rise in trying to just make people efficient and not human. And so I think that's such an easy way of thinking. But then really taking that back on you and saying, okay, does this actually benefit me or am I just doing it because. Is actually a really good thing to link in as like a almost like advice on what to do and how to filter in what you should take on and not take on. Obviously it's not always realistic, but in the realistic points, like, okay, so if I take this on, it's extra. Is that going to benefit me or am I going to. Whether that benefit my career, benefit my well being, benefit my sense of meaning and purpose, things like that? Effy. [00:30:59] Speaker B: Yes. And you know what? And I feel like we're going to go on to this in a minute, so maybe I won't mention it now, but I think there's something to do with the transition from like 20s where like you're kind of developing your career and training into your 30s. And there's this moment where you really have to stop and think, why am I doing this? Like, am I doing this because I'm still in that like trainee or like early career mode? And I'm saying yes to everything because I really want to develop and I want to learn to. Like, maybe when you're more towards your 30s, like, actually, why am I saying yes to this? I've already developed in X, Y and Z. [00:31:39] Speaker A: That's such a good point. [00:31:40] Speaker B: Like, touch more on that later. [00:31:41] Speaker A: I don't know, like that, that corporate culture really conditions you to think that you really need to keep doing that. Obviously upskilling is important as you go, but you know that real need, if you have specific goals in your career, in your 20s, just like, go, go, go, go. And you have the energy, everything. [00:31:59] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. [00:32:01] Speaker A: And probably have less responsibilities, whether that's like kids, you know, buying a house, things like that. So it's a little bit easier to manage. But then you do have to take a step back and go, this is not sustainable because it just gets more and more and more. [00:32:15] Speaker B: I think that's one of the things that I have found the most difficult. It's like that transition and trying to. Yeah. Trying to reflect more on why I'm actually saying yes to things. But yeah, so, so maybe so to come to like a listener comment. So we have a few here that we want to share with you. [00:32:35] Speaker A: Can I just, I just. Sorry. Throw one thing, one thing in there as my biggest reason for cause of burnout from my perspective is that, and this is one of the first things I say to clients in sessions is we are currently living in a world that our brains and our bodies are not evolved for. So sorry. Before you move on to this really interesting and almost sad like listener comment, I really want to touch on how burnout, anxiety, depression, things like this are almost like adaptive responses to living in a world we're not evolved to be getting messages from 100 people a day. We're not evolved to have so much information coming into our brain from the news. Like we're seeing things on the news every day that is like the worst thing anyone has ever seen. If they were watching this a hundred years ago. We're sitting too much. We're you know, eating foods that were not necessarily evolved to eat. It's literally living in a world even though we constructed it. Well, not us, not the, not the current people. [00:33:43] Speaker B: God damn it, Kristen. [00:33:44] Speaker A: I know, sorry guys. But like it's been constructed in a way that is absolutely inconducive to physical and mental health. And so we're just trying to constantly play individual catch up in a society and a world that is not meant for us. It's just very frustrating. And so it's hard because when we're looking at solutions and reasons, we're like, okay, here's what you can do. But really the thing to emphasize is that it's because we're not evolved to live how we're living right now. And so addressing burnout is a very difficult thing to do. And it's so individual. And yeah, that's like for me, like yes, I. Work related stress, lifestyle factors, personality traits. But I would say the majority of these, like when we're going from work related stress, like excessive workload, lack of ability to put boundaries in place and work, not having time to relax or socialize and to having that like perfectionism or a high need for control are all as a result of that broader kind of. Yes, like socio, like cultural level filtering down into our lives. [00:34:59] Speaker B: Totally. Yeah. Like if you were just like living in a forest, foraging and living your best life, then it might not really matter so much that you were quite perfectionistic because there'll probably be less things around you that you maybe needed to control. Less kind of variables. In a sense. [00:35:16] Speaker A: I think there's two things that make me think of is number one, you'd probably be less likely to develop a perfectionistic personality trait because you wouldn't need it to survive. And if it is something that's more genetic. Genetic because some of it's like a mix of genes and, and like how you were raised. If you were more perfectionist, it might be adaptive in the sense that like you've developed your perfect garden and you're really into. You need to make sure that you water it on time and you're doing all that. It's like, okay, that you can only apply perfectionism to so many things in a world that we evolved in. Whereas in this world, you can apply perfectionism to hundreds of things and that's really stressful. So, yeah, I don't know if that was a rant or just me saying like that. [00:36:00] Speaker B: It's a good point. [00:36:02] Speaker A: It's just people. [00:36:03] Speaker B: I think it can be easy to. Sorry, sorry. [00:36:06] Speaker A: You go. [00:36:08] Speaker B: No, you go. [00:36:09] Speaker A: I just wanted people to recognize that it's not just like. It's not. It's not their fault, really. Necessarily. [00:36:15] Speaker B: Yes, that's what I was gonna say. Exactly. It is not a surprise that you talk to every person you know and they all say, yes, I'm burnt out or burning out. So one. Okay, so one comment we've had then. So they said. So this is an environment where burnout is arguably, like, especially rife. But they said burnout and the NHS are basically interchangeable terms. So for those of you who don't know. So the NHS is the. What does even stand for? [00:36:50] Speaker A: Is it the National Health Service? [00:36:53] Speaker B: Is it service? I don't know. I mean, probably you're. You had to do the test to get into the uk, so you probably know better than I do. [00:37:01] Speaker A: I think it's service. I mean, to be fair that I don't think that was a question, though. Questions I remember were like, you know, if you see somebody punching somebody in the face, should you help them? Or like, what time does the pub open on Sunday? Those are more of the questions on my side. [00:37:16] Speaker B: They're much more. Much more relevant than nhs, but basically it's our healthcare system in the uk. And, yeah, I think everybody I know that I speak to who has a job in the NHS is really struggling from a workload perspective and probably a lot of other perspectives. So in terms of whether it's workload or, like, emotional toll of patient care, the organizational support, and I don't think is like the best in the NHS and the culture and so on, but there seem to be a lot of articles on this. So even like pre pandemic, where it was, you know, saying how rife, I suppose, burnout and kind of mental health struggles were or are within the nhs. [00:38:08] Speaker A: Yeah, there's also. So that's. Even before the pandemic, there were studies saying, okay, this is a real problem. And it's, you know, also due to that, like, inadequate resources and infrastructure, again, bringing in that broader organizational and socio levels. But then post pandemic, they're like. I'm sure they're catching up on patients they've not seen or, like, catching up on cases. Catching up there's no time to recover from burnout. And then these long term burnout effects are probably impacting mental health, but it's not. They're so short staffed that I can't even imagine how you even address that without those structural changes. [00:38:52] Speaker B: And I think that's probably one of the things is that I can imagine it feels again, it's just like feeling quite hopeless with it. Especially when you've done like however much training you've had to do, how much, it's probably like seven, eight years or something and then you get into this role that you've been waiting to be in for like most of your life but then actually it's just not sustainable. And yeah, you're struggling. [00:39:17] Speaker A: I think that's such a good point because you forget about people who say they're burnt out a lot of the time spent a lot of time training and wanting to do the careers that they're in. And then you're so much less likely because one of the advice pieces for pre burnout or burnout is, you know, reevaluate your work. You know, should you transfer to a role or you know, a work culture that's maybe less demanding. But then if you've put, you know, money and time into developing this expertise, the last thing you're going to want to do is, you know, maybe what you might perceive as demote yourself. And so that can just perpetuate this idea. And I probably put some and like feelings of like guilt and like you said, helplessness and, and it's just so interesting. And I've heard a few stories about people who were like, like high end lawyers who were super burnt out and they just quit and then moved to Hawaii and became a bartender and they're so much happier. But that's not doable for everyone, you know what I mean? [00:40:18] Speaker B: No, no. [00:40:19] Speaker A: Also guys felt, don't. Also don't move to Hawaii. Leave Hawaii alone. Just want to throw that one in there. [00:40:26] Speaker B: All right. Okay. [00:40:27] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:40:29] Speaker B: But I think, I think I also felt a bit of this struggle when I was transitioning from more like applied work into academia because I did feel like, well I've done all this training to be an applied practitioner and though I still have a handful of private clients, it still almost felt like, oh, am I like wasting all those years of training that I did like just to like go and lecture, you know? [00:40:55] Speaker A: Yeah, but you're not just lecturing, you're researching which informs the next generation. And also all of your in person work that you have done and do still do informs what you're researching and what you're teaching so that you know, it's. It's still up to date. It's very much informed by what you did or didn't experience. And it might be better for you in terms of burnout now. Maybe not. [00:41:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:20] Speaker A: But in terms of like that social expectation that you get from applied work. That's why I've kind of transferred. [00:41:27] Speaker B: Yeah, I feel that for sure. And I think it is sometimes. And though this is. Yeah. Not always possible if you're kind of almost feel a bit stuck on in the role you're in. I think there is something around reflecting on like, you know, what environments work for you and reflecting on. Not necessarily reflecting, but like accepting that actually I might not be built or I might not suit this environment. [00:41:54] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that's. That really comes back to that self awareness piece that you know, if you're. It can be. I can imagine it being so stressful if you don't know where the stress is coming from. You just are stressed all the time. Like I see people now who are maybe like of the boomer generation who, who didn't have the kind of like information that we have now surrounding what burnout is and how to be self aware of certain mental health pieces. And it just wasn't normalized and available. And I see that they've been burnt out for 40 years and you see the chronic stress having an impact and not knowing when to stop or how to stop. And I think it's really important to be aware of that. Before I go off on a tangent on that, I'll get to our next statement from a listener because it's not a question, it's more of an experience. So they say I don't know many women in their late 30s who aren't feeling burnt out most of the time. It feels like I have to be twice as good as my male counterparts counterparts for the same recognition at work. And this touches on probably two things that we've already kind of mentioned but that kind of like transition to being in your 30s and there's just so many responsibilities. They, they don't like kind of go away naturally. They can't. But they do naturally add up over time. And again. So we're talking about that recognition at work. And recognition can mean control, a promotion, more money. And so again similar to our last listener write in, this assessment is correct. This personal experience is very common in the literature research. Pretty. What's the word I'm looking for? Pretty. Pretty Solidly is best word I can come up with right now says that women are more burnt out than men. This burnout dis, disproportionately affects women for loads of interconnected reasons. And this spans from societal to workplace and personal dynamic interpersonal dynamics. And so a few of these reasons are not going to be surprising, but I think they're important to note. So we have an unequal distribution of unpaid labor. So you know, it was decided hundreds of years ago that only certain kinds of labor are valued enough to be paid. Women have been basically put in through stuff we've talked about before as the ones who do all the unpaid labor such as caregiving and emotional support and things like that. But they're not getting, they're not getting paid. And it's always, it's a lot of the time, it's, it's almost like made to feel like it's less significant because it's unpaid. And these are things like caregiving responsibilities. So women are a lot of the time the primary caregivers for their children, for their elderly parents, any other dependents. So this, you know, if you're working adds like a second shift. There's no shutting off. It's a 24 hour a day work. And this like not just caregiving interpersonally, but also like that household management. Women disproportionately handle the household task. This is proven over and over and over in the literature. Excuse me, still an issue in 2024 and this is even in dual income households. So this like leads to much greater mental and physical exhaustion. And again just like that emotional labor piece, like providing that emotional support to whether it's partners, family, friends that you've kind of been conditioned to know how to provide that maybe men haven't. And like we talked about in our sexism episode is that's a disservice against everyone. You know, men should be able to provide this as well. We also have workplace inequities. So that's things like discrimination, harassment and over inequity because of bias. So we have the gender pay gap which is obvious. Women obviously learn less for similar roles. We also have fewer opportunities for advancement. So overall women face more barriers to leadership roles requiring more and more and more effort just to prove their worth. Which again links back into that piece we were talking about. Also women are more likely to take on roles that require emotional labor or be expected when in roles that have nothing to do with emotional labor to do it. Do you know what I mean? Like mediating conflicts at Work mentoring. So they're more likely to either take on an HR role or even if their role has nothing to do with this and they're like a salesperson, they're still expected to, you know, support their colleagues, maybe more. There's bias in evaluations. And lastly, like, sexual harassment and sexism. And lastly, there's the overall cultural expectations. Yeah, just touch on, you know, just casual sexual harassment and sex. [00:46:34] Speaker B: Yeah, that's fine. [00:46:35] Speaker A: Just put that there. Constantly managing your safety levels and things like that. And then there's the overall cultural expectation of, like, that Superwoman syndrome. You have to be good at everything you do. And that's why it's. So many more women suffer from perfectionism than men. And so, again, this is a really difficult one because it stems from cultural and societal norms and these expectations that, like, really filter down through to organizations and your interpersonal interactions. And overall, the way I kind of, like, summarize this in my head was women are often expected to do everything in this world that never, ever stops. So, yeah, so that. That's one of the reasons. Well, many of the reasons. [00:47:17] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think often there's that feeling like, you know, I'll just. Can I get to the end of this list and then I can stop and things will be okay, or I'll just get this one thing done. But that's the thing. It's like, it just never stops, and you're just in a constant loop of just, like, task completion or. Yeah, that's basically what it is. You could boil most things down to just task completion. Yeah. [00:47:41] Speaker A: Unfortunately, like, literally. Why has our world just become, like, not even a fun video game where you just are constantly checking things off the list that you need to do before you get to the fun big thing in your life. [00:47:53] Speaker B: Love a little, like, time management. Time management game. [00:47:57] Speaker A: I know, but then you're choosing to do that. There's autonomy to do to that. There's like. Yeah, there's a bit of a sense of fulfillment and control of doing that instead of having it just shoved in your face constantly. [00:48:09] Speaker B: And I think as well, the thing that resonates is this, like, superwoman syndrome thing, because I think it's then interesting when we try and, like, step away from that or be, like, selfish and say no to things, that there is this, like, guilt that comes along with not being that person who's there to, like, pick everything up or to, like, I don't know, help someone at, like, the drop of a hat, you know, and it's like, shit, I probably should have gone and done that. But yeah, there is that guilt, I think, associated when you're not there to save everything. [00:48:46] Speaker A: Because that expectation's there, like, and it's not even you're putting that expectation there. You feel like you might be putting that expectation there, but you've been raised with an entire lifetime experience of that expectation being there for you. And so of course you're going to feel guilt and then you're going to feel that frustration that you talked about earlier in this episode about putting the expectation on yourself. But did you really. I think that's something to question, is like, okay, where are these expectations coming from? Yeah, yeah. I think we're at a point now where we should decide whether we talk a little bit about neurodivergent burnout or we save that maybe for our next episode and talk about them more. And so, like, we could always just go kind of talking about recognizing it and how to fix it, basically. Do we want to spend 10 minutes talking about neurodivergent burnout? So we'll probably go. [00:49:42] Speaker B: Yeah, I think we should talk about that for a full hour. [00:49:45] Speaker A: I totally agree because that's. Because I was just looking at this. I'm like, there's so many more things I could add to this. So I guess what I'll say because we do have a really interesting listener comment about this and that's what really drove us and it's something important to us as well. So we won't read the comment. We'll save it for next week. But I think what I'll just briefly throw in there is that word topping. That's my word of the day that I've messed up. We're talking about just kind of like a normal burnout. It's really negative and really harmful. But this is kind of like a normal stress related neurotypical burnout. But there are different types of burnout that reflect your neurotype. So ADHD and autistic people are significantly more likely to experience normal burnout alongside additional challenges and different kinds of burnouts due to functioning in a neurotypical world. And so. So tune in next week if you want to hear about that. Because if you are neurodivergent or think you might be, this is actually something that's really important because my autistic burnout, which I didn't know it was at the time, was diagnosed as depression. And the ways to kind of heal and work towards, you know, healing depression and healing autistic burnout are completely opposite. So I was doing Stuff for over a year that just wasn't working. And it. So yeah, it's, it's really interesting. So we'll be talking about ADHD burnout, you know, hyper focus over commitment, executive dysfunction. We'll talk about autism burnout which is often caused by like masking and social exhaustion. So tune in for that. So I guess time to, to move on to maybe the point, the part that's maybe most useful to people in terms of like practical things. Even though what we talk about constantly is this is also a societal thing. So it's probably very difficult to manage. But it's really, really important to recognize burnout before it truly sets in. So now burnout isn't impossible to fix, but it's because of the world we live in. It's very, very, very difficult to implement the things we need to fix it, if that makes sense. So we've mentioned the kind of expressions of burnout like what burnout looks at the very beginning. But a typical pre burnout signs from that physical you are some occasional fatigue that doesn't quite go away with rest, subtle changes to your sleep quality quality. So is it difficult for you to fall asleep when it usually isn't? Are you waking up tired? Are you waking up in the middle of the night? You know, more minor health issues like you're getting frequent colds or headaches out of nowhere that's just started. And these things can kind of sneak up on you. You don't necessarily, because it's so slow, realize that they're happening from that emotional point of view, like maybe feeling overwhelmed or easily frustrated more than you usually would feeling like you're enjoying things less that you used to find fulfilling. So maybe something that used to be a joyful activity now seems like a demand. So for example, I used to ride my horse three days a week and I love it so much. It gets you in nature, it gets you stop like to stop thinking about the world. But for some reason when I started to feel burnt out, it became like a demand, like I need to do this, otherwise I'm not doing. It's like an initial things seem like an additional task. So you might also feel periodic self doubt or feeling less confident. So paying attention to your normal confidence levels and things like that. And if they start dipping along with all these other signs that might be a sign these more behavioral signs. So maybe the more obvious ones are procrastinating more, taking longer to complete tasks. And again we can generate a lot of guilt in ourselves from procrastination and that is related to executive dysfunction, which we'll talk about next time. But essentially, like, it's a big sign of burnout when you really want to be doing these tasks, but you just can't make yourself. And that can look like you're neglecting the smaller responsibilities, like, say, forgetting an appointment that you made, things like that. And maybe another behavioral sign is withdrawing socially a little bit, you know, not disappearing off the map. But you start to recognize that maybe you're withdrawing a little and then finally the more mental and psychological signs. So maybe you're struggling to concentrate more often than you would and spacing out more, maybe feeling less creative or struggling with basic problem solving. Whereas even if it's coming up with a list and you're like, I'm sure I literally just had the whole list in my head 30 seconds ago. Do you know what I mean? And then again, being more irritable or sensitive to criticism, so obviously quite related to what we talked about at the beginning of the episode in terms of. Of the signs of actual burnout. But these are the signs of pre burnout where you're like, okay, I. Maybe I'm starting to think that I could be in that pre burnout phase. I want to tackle this before it becomes a real issue. So I think it's really important to be aware of what your kind of baseline is, which I guess is difficult if you're constantly in pre burnout burnout, but just kind of keeping track of this kind of list list and, you know, monitoring that. So that's my little blurb. I think I've gone on a lot, but yeah, that's like how to spot the signs of pre burnout. [00:55:12] Speaker B: Yeah. And shall we go through some things that people can do to kind of help? [00:55:17] Speaker A: Definitely. [00:55:18] Speaker B: So I suppose if you are kind of thinking, you know what, like, I am in pre burnout at the moment, there are a number of kind of proactive approaches you can take to try and kind of balance things out or set boundaries or to support in like, self care. So we have some practical tips which can apply to kind of all neurotypes, but based on. We'll kind of next week talk about things that might be more kind of neurotype specific. But these things that we've got here, they might. They also link quite heavily to what we were talking about in the mental health episode. So you might have already started thinking about some of these things and implementing them in your lives. But so it can be. So the first thing sounds like the simplest thing, but I think is like the most difficult thing based on the society we have established that we live in, but it's we in heavy time. Yeah. So manage your time and workload. Like, thank you. Thank you. I'll try. [00:56:19] Speaker A: Yeah. What Some of the advice I saw on this is like, get an AI app that helps manage and organize your time. But then I'm like, okay, firstly, then I have to learn how to work this app. I have to have another app on my phone that's another task. And then I still have the same amount of stuff to do, and it's not gonna organize it in a way that maybe is beneficial for me. Do you know what I mean? Yes. [00:56:42] Speaker B: And I probably just spent. I probably use it for like a week and then I'll be like, no, I don't. Like it said, I've wasted, like, like, probably multiple days of my life trying to find something that works. This is one of the things that actually I reflect on quite a lot because I think I often try to add things in that is supposedly going to make my life easier. But I think I'm coming to the point where I'm just like, I'm just trying to overcomplicate. [00:57:06] Speaker A: You do this all the time. [00:57:07] Speaker B: I really just need to sit down and simplify it. I'm so bad for that. [00:57:13] Speaker A: Kristen, have you heard of xyz? Have you tried this? Kristen, I'm starting doing this. I'm starting this, like, new yoga. I'm starting this new app. Have you. [00:57:23] Speaker B: That is me, actually. Yeah, I will do that. And you were like, what did you say? I say, you said something like, maybe just try and like, I don't know, do one thing. Yeah, you said something like that. [00:57:37] Speaker A: And I was like, oh, maybe something around the lines of maybe not Laura. Maybe just like, yeah, maybe don't add that extra thing. [00:57:45] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm so bad at doing that. So maybe try and avoid doing that if you're like me. Sometimes things stick, but it's usually, like. Is usually a waste of time, but I just can't help it. [00:57:57] Speaker A: It's hard because there's ads for everything and, like, you feel like it's gonna fix everything. But, like, you know, what just popped in my head is when I was nearing that stage where I think you're at, we talk about, like you're at right now where you're like, in that transition phase. I started doing all that, that to. I started like, like, you know, I hate yoga and mindfulness per. For me personally, they just make me more mad. I tried to, like, implement those And I implemented all these things that I knew I hated. You know what I mean? And it just made it worse. And then I felt guilty because I paid for, like, three months of a mindfulness app and, like, never used, like, all that kind of stuff. So make it work for you. [00:58:33] Speaker B: Yep. Sometimes you might have to go the long way around, but, you know. [00:58:37] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:58:39] Speaker B: So establish healthy boundaries. So this is where we're talking about learning how to say no and maybe just trying to really decide, like, what is. What's a priority to you? Like, how do you actually want to spend your time? What are the things that you kind of need to do kind of versus the things that might be, like, nice to do or, I don't know, like you feel like you have to do. So I think there's somewhere where we can start to kind of structure a little bit better or kind of compartmentalize a bit better the different tasks that we might have to do. So sometimes with things, I'm like, you know what? I would quite like to do that, but do I really have capacity and time? And I'm like, no, I don't. So, yeah. So trying to establish some of those boundaries and even delegating tasks if you can, whether that's with colleagues or families. [00:59:29] Speaker A: And friends, I think an important one with that is, like, do easy boundaries that are easy to enforce. So, for example, I started with talk about, like, WhatsApp, getting so many messages in the day and the week. I started with, like, a time barrier. For the most part. I won't message anyone back if it's past 6pm because I want to be able to shut off socially. And I was trying to also reteach my brain and body how to recognize when it was starting to feel a little like, oh, spit too much. Now I'm at the point where I can recognize if I have the capacity. And my strategy now is I just don't text people back straight away because it's one of those things that really, like, drains me. And it sounds dumb, like, to a lot of people, but. And it might just be an autism thing, but it's still communication. It still takes a lot. Still masking involved sometimes. And so now I'm just like, okay, I can take some time, and that's fine. And I don't feel guilty about it, but not everyone's going. That won't work for everyone. I'm just saying, like, something personal for me. But it can start small with an easy implementable, like, rule. And then eventually, over time, your body starts to Learn. Your brain starts to learn. Oh, okay. This is how I actually feel when I'm too overwhelmed to do this or when I'm feeling like I'm okay to engage in this. [01:00:51] Speaker B: I turned off my read receipts, didn't I? Yes, that was. That was my small step, which I think has helped to make me feel less, like, guilty about not instantly replying. [01:01:01] Speaker A: Yeah, good small step. [01:01:03] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you. So then, of course, we have things like, we've mentioned before, so, like cultivating supportive relationships. So spending time with family and friends and just people who kind of uplift you. Obviously, we talk quite a bit as well, like about mindfulness and gratitude practice. So whether it's focusing on the present moment, meditation, journal, journaling, obviously, the. The problem I find with this a little bit is, like, I'm burnt out. Like, I don't have time to do that. [01:01:36] Speaker A: Exactly. That's what I was gonna say. It's like it's another task. [01:01:40] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. It's another. It is another task. And I think you're right. It's like, what's something. What's a really small step? So it can literally be like, I don't know, like you say, like, going out and walk, noticing one thing around you, or taking a moment to take a few breaths, or writing down just three things that you appreciate, like, in that moment. And so I think it's not. It's trying to break it down and kind of keep them really small. Especially when you feel like everything is on top of you and you probably already feel like you're trying to do a million and one things. Yeah. And this might link a little bit with the next point, which is like, reassessing your commitment. So it might be evaluating goals that you kind of currently have. Have, considering how, I guess, the things that you're currently doing, like, align with your values. And it might actually be trying to reprioritize some of the things that you're doing to take care of yourself and look after yourself. And that might allow you to create a little bit of space to add things in around whether it is, like, gratitude practice, for example. And yeah, like we mentioned before as well, just simplifying things. Can you reduce any un. Necessary responsibilities or commitments? It's almost like when I, like, clear out my wardrobe, like, once a year, and it's like trying to pick which things you want to get rid of. Sometimes I'll temporarily put something to the side, and then if I haven't thought about it for a number of months, then I'm like, okay, I definitely can get rid of that. So it's almost trying to find a process like that before committing commitments that we might have in life and with work and yeah, maybe you kind of do consider a change. Maybe it's kind of changing job or lifestyle, especially if that is a significant source of stress for you and if you are feeling stuck, perhaps to take some time to reflect on that and then a couple of quick ones at the end. So we've mentioned a little bit around using technology wisely. Consider your screen time, your notifications, things like that, that do try and feed in some elements of fun and relaxation. And like we say, like try and prioritize that. [01:03:46] Speaker A: Try and plan to plan fun. [01:03:49] Speaker B: Planned fun. It is the way to go. Plan your fun out, prioritize your fun. Because it can, it can be hard to fit that in. It really can be. Especially when you probably feel like you've been doing, you know, stupid amounts of work all week. You get to the weekend and actually I don't have energy to do fast fun and that really sucks. So yes, be kind to yourself if you feel like you don't have energy for fun, but try and think about that relaxation instead. And then just monitoring, I suppose yourself kind of keep checking in with yourself and kind of assessing how you might be feeling. Maybe make some notes after day today. Make notes. That's so boring. Maybe like, I don't know, maybe just reflect on some key things that might be signs for you. [01:04:40] Speaker A: Yeah, and we kind of just touched on like the pre burnout stuff. But what if you actually are burnt out? Like what do you do? So I think a lot of it feeds into what we chatted about above, trying to implement a lot of that. But at the same time, if you already are burnt out, a lot of them can be added tasks. But I think it's important to look at burnout from long and short term perspective. So how do I fix burnout now versus how do I make sure I'm not burnt out in a year? Like how do I manage how I'm feeling now versus in a year from now? So I think the most important part, I think is one of the reasons we did this episode is to recognize the signs. Because I think many people who get burnt out are getting burnt out because they're just so unaware that that's what's happening to them. And a lot of people can blame themselves or blame things that you know are necessarily related and then implement maybe strategies that just aren't conducive to healing. So if you can Prioritize rest and recovery. And that's really can make people feel guilty. But I think if you recognize the signs of burnout, the next step is rest and recovery so that sleep boundaries breaks unplugging from the Internet. And almost that like, like self diagnosis of burnout can help with moderating the guilt for resting. But I think as a society we can make ourselves feel guilty for not being on and active all the time. Again, relying on that social support and self care. And the self care needs to be physical, emotional, social, do stuff you enjoy and just kind of focus on adjusting your environment. But the main thing that we need to emphasize if your burnout symptoms are persisting or if you're in pre burnout and you feel like you're just hurtling towards that burnout, or if you're experiencing really severe symptoms of burnout, which can be like depression or anxiety, I think it's really important to reach out to like a healthcare provider, a mental health professional to manage this because burnout is manageable if you know what you're doing. And so that's why it's really important to ask for help because it's just such a buzzword and there's so much out there that, that promises to like heal your burnout and make life easier. But actually it's both simpler and more complicated than that, if that makes sense. So I think it's important to make sure that if you need to heal this with somebody, that they know what they're doing. [01:07:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Reach out to a professional, someone who can support you or signpost you to get support. Because it is not, it is not always or not ever easy to kind of make these changes when we are kind of stuck within the systems that we are within. So yeah, please do reach out for help from a health professional if you feel you need to. So maybe then a reflection for us to end on. I think the main thing from this episode is for you guys to just reflect on whether you, you notice any signs of burnout or pre burnout in your life at the moment. I think again we're really big on kind of self awareness. It's just being aware of if this is something you are experiencing at the moment. Yeah. And I think we'll do it for. Well, I would definitely do it for myself. I think I definitely am and I probably do very little about it. [01:08:07] Speaker A: No, you. [01:08:08] Speaker B: I think some. [01:08:08] Speaker A: I think you're trying to do stuff about it. You are trying to do stuff about it. You're actively trying. Yes. But I think, oh, there's A massive. Sorry, this massive rainbow just formed outside my window. [01:08:19] Speaker B: You always have. You always have rainbows. [01:08:22] Speaker A: I know it's because we're in the middle of, like, the rainiest place, but. Sorry, I just got so distracted. Guys, this is what we're talking about. Appreciate the small moments that you can be present. Yes. [01:08:33] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. This is a great example. Yes. Something I was going to say that has helped me is. And it sounds really silly and very small, but when I. I'll kind of try to, I guess, yeah, plan to relax, but that's not always easy because there's this guilt with it. So I try to remind myself that I'm giving myself permission to relax. And I think this word of permission for me is quite powerful. So give yourself permission to take some time off and to prioritize yourself. [01:09:07] Speaker A: I think that's a much better way of phrasing what I was trying to say earlier, which is like, as long as soon as you acknowledge you have that burnout, or you might be in pre burnout, almost acknowledging that does give you that permission to relax, maybe without some guilt. And that's definitely something that I experienced when I was trying to recover from burnout. Now I feel it a lot less. I won't say it's gone away, but yeah, I totally agree and really love, love that kind of framing of it. Definitely a massive skill of yours is reframing things in, like a really good way. But thank you guys for listening. As usual, we probably have more questions than answers, but we really did explore, enjoy exploring and really chatting about burnout. We do wonder if this left you with any questions. Please comment and let us know or get in touch in any other way. If there's any other topics you want us to explore, get in touch. Make sure to like, follow or engage however your platform allows, and tell your friends you can find us on various social media platforms and the link is in the bio of our Instagram page and in the show notes. And remember, the first step to understanding is asking, but why.