Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:16] Speaker B: Welcome to but why Real Talk on Messy Minds and Messier Systems, the podcast where two psychologists overanalyze everything so you don't have to. We're here to unpack the weird, the worrying, and the wildly unjust with just. Just enough existential dread to keep us going. Slash, keep it interesting. Mess that up. Whatever. I'm Dr. Kristen.
[00:00:36] Speaker A: And I'm Dr. Laura. And let's dive into the mess.
So today we're talking about why we get so defensive.
But before we get into that, we of course want to give you a bit of chit chat.
[00:00:53] Speaker B: Yes. Organized small talk.
[00:00:55] Speaker A: Yes, Must be organized. We talked about our small talk for about five minutes before we started this small talk.
[00:01:03] Speaker B: Nothing says autism for planning your small talk.
[00:01:06] Speaker A: Autism?
[00:01:07] Speaker B: Yeah, autism.
[00:01:13] Speaker A: And with that, I had a very autistic story to share. So I.
Well, how long has it been? It was probably like two weeks maybe since I was diagnosed officially.
[00:01:27] Speaker B: We've all known for a while, Laura.
[00:01:30] Speaker A: But now I, like, really know and like, oh, my God, like, I just see so many things now, and I'm like, wow, like, I'm doing so much in my brain that maybe isn't what everybody does. Do you know what I mean?
[00:01:46] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:01:47] Speaker A: I think I told you. I was like, the scripting stuff, I was always like, you know. You know what? I don't think I really script. I script so much, and it's one of the things that I've never really noticed.
[00:01:55] Speaker B: You mean like pre script, like before having a conversation?
[00:01:59] Speaker A: Yes.
One of the things I find it happens has always happened. I don't know if you get this. So I was in a. Okay, I'm going to tell it. So this social situation at work, it was a meeting, like a research meeting.
Firstly, I go into the room. I'm the first person into the room. That decision of which table do I sit at? Right.
[00:02:18] Speaker B: Oh, my God, it's horrible.
[00:02:20] Speaker A: And I was calculating in my head. I was like, like, how many people are coming to this meeting? Like, what's the kind of vibe of the meeting? Like, is it more casual? Is there a presentation? Like, where do I need to sit? Like, I can't sit with my back to the screen and like, where am I gonna go? So I calculated and felt like I picked the best position.
Nobody sat on my table.
[00:02:43] Speaker B: It's like, I really got this wrong.
[00:02:46] Speaker A: Like, Amy was sat on the table because it was like, near to the.
Near to the computer, you know, like the podium, y. Whatever you want to call it. And I was like, everybody else comes in. Does not make the decision for this table. And I'm like, either I make really bad table decisions, or it's me.
Amy must get. So Amy, who we had on a previous podcast episode. So we both do a lot of work with Amy, but at work, I'll almost, like, cling to her a bit and be like, amy, where are you gonna sit? Because, like, I don't know where to sit. And then I'm just hovering, like, I don't know where to go, but anyway.
[00:03:23] Speaker B: And I feel like. I feel like a non autistic person looks at that and they're like, why are you analyzing this so much?
[00:03:29] Speaker A: What are you doing? Like, goes down.
[00:03:32] Speaker B: Because Jack is, like, neurodivergent, so he's adhd, but he's not autistic. And he cannot wrap his head around what I'm, like, overanalyzing. He's accepted it 100, like, but he, at first he was like, why are you so bothered about, like, what? See? And, like, thinking, overthinking it. Oh, my gosh. You don't know the, like, the. How much it, like, leeches your self confidence when you've just, like, sat at a table with, like, five or six seats in it. And then, like, you're the first one in the room and it's almost a full room and no one is, oh, my God.
[00:04:03] Speaker A: And you've been through such a process, which makes you think that that is the best place to sit. And then you've been. So then it's like the double blow because you're like, wow, this is where this went wrong. Wow.
[00:04:15] Speaker B: Just wow.
[00:04:15] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. But then linking this back to scripting, right? So I was. So then in this meeting, you know when you kind of go around and you tell everybody roughly, like, what you're researching and stuff like that, and I was like the last person to go. And so the whole entire time, whilst about 10 plus of the people are going through it, I'm rehearsing in my head over and over again what I'm gonna say. My heart is, like, pounding because I'm, like, waiting, and I'm like, laura, you should really just be able to, like, say this because you've been doing this for so long, like, you're a lecturer. Like, come on, Laura.
[00:04:51] Speaker B: My heart is, like, pounding. You literally, like, this is so annoying. Speak to people for a living.
[00:04:56] Speaker A: It's so annoying. I absolutely hate it.
[00:05:00] Speaker B: I hate it so much. And it's like, that happens to me as well when we're going around. It's like, I hate when we have to go in a circle and tell things about ourselves. It's ridiculous.
[00:05:09] Speaker A: But like, sometimes it isn't a proper circle. So you're like, where am I in the circle?
[00:05:13] Speaker B: Oh, don't even get me started on that. Like, is it linear? Is like, are we going clockwise, counterclockwise? Are we going by like, I don't know, you just chuck it at somebody.
[00:05:21] Speaker A: Social, social interactions, aren't they so much fun? So yeah, that's. There's some things I've been noticing.
[00:05:29] Speaker B: I think it's a big part of that kind of discovering your autism, whether you wanted to call it discoverability or diagnosis, is it takes you years, probably forever to actually deconstruct all those things that you just thought were that you never really even thought about before. And then all of a sudden you're like, oh, wait a minute. Like, either wait, I was being bullied in that situation, or actually I didn't think I was as literal and rigid because I can, I can like go for like a non planned day out with friends, but then I'm like, but I have to know it's going to be a non planned day. Like, yeah, if you think there's a plan and then suddenly there's a change.
No, that's horrible. But if I'm like, okay, well this day is going to be like, we're gonna do like a random whatever, like pub crawl or we're just gonna like see what we feel like doing on the day. I can accept that if I pre know it's an unplanned day.
Stuff like that.
[00:06:26] Speaker A: So it's like the worst bit is more if there's a plan and then you cancel the plan. Like that's rather than just saying we're just gonna kind of do this and like then see where we go like, okay, don't then can't. Like that annoys me. Don't change it halfway. You know what I mean?
[00:06:41] Speaker B: Oh, that's worse. Especially if you've like doing it halfway. That's just like, ugh. But okay, well, we promised that we would be a little more focused in our episode today.
[00:06:53] Speaker A: Focus. This is us being focused.
[00:06:56] Speaker B: Yes, we're attempting.
But it was. We were gonna kind of like chat a little bit about how last week we had Oliver on, which I thought was a really fun conversation because we don't often have guests on. I think we're gonna start doing it more now that we have our rhythm and stuff like that. But it was a really cool conversation.
It was really cool to get the perspective of somebody who has access to a different side than we do in terms of treatment and perspective and things like that. So that was really cool.
[00:07:30] Speaker A: Yeah, 100%. And I just love how, like, how Oliver articulates kind of all of the topics like we were exploring.
And I think it brings almost some sense of reality to it, but at the same time, a grounding in what's going on.
And I just think he's a really good, I think, like, teacher of these topics because he has that almost, like, groundedness about him, but such solid points and arguments, which I love.
[00:08:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that as well. But so our episode with Oliver, we were talking a lot about people's reactions, the men's reactions when their toxic behavior is called out, which has been evidenced a lot. We posted one video online, like, teasing our episode with Oliver, and some stuff has been like, yes, women saying, this is my experience, stuff like that. And then some men experiencing defensiveness. And obviously, this isn't just an episode to just attack that situation, but it is something that I think that's really important to explore.
So we just thought it would be.
It was kind of on the list to do anyway, but it would be a good time to cover why humans get defensive. You know, it's. It's an important one, definitely.
[00:08:53] Speaker A: And I think also, like, I can be such a defensive person, especially if it's something that I feel like I've done wrong or something that I'm almost, like, surprised by, someone that maybe having an opinion on. I think I can at least come across as being quite, quite defensive. And I think we talk about it quite a bit, Kristen, in terms of, like, sometimes we might actually just be trying to seek clarity as to somebody's, like, differing opinion, but sometimes that can perhaps come across to the other person as actually, you're being defensive.
But I certainly do think that there's a certain feeling. It's more like an anxious feeling, I think, that comes up when I feel, like, not like I'm being attacked, but when my perspective or my view is being challenged. And that might be as simple as, like, I've done something a certain way at work. And someone said to me, well, why are you doing like that? I think that this way is better.
That even makes me feel a bit like, oh, like, defensive in a sense.
[00:09:59] Speaker B: I totally agree. And you saying about kind of like that, seeking clarity, especially as autistic people, we can be perceived as defensive a lot more. And I think we can get into this when we're looking at the reasons People are perceived as defensive when they're not and things like that.
But a lot of times when autistic women are asking for clarity, it's viewed as very defensive. And it happens. It shows up a lot in kind of. Even my relationship with my partner is like, I'll ask a clarifying question. And he's like, are you okay? And I'm like, no, I really am just trying to figure out the situation.
And it probably looks very similar as when I do actually get defensive. So I can understand why people would struggle to kind of understand the difference. And I think it's on us to seek in ourselves to try and understand that a little bit more because it's easy to get defensive because our brains just move really, really quickly to protect themselves. It's just an evolutionary characteristic.
So there's a bit of self compassion on that side. But like everything we talk about, there's also personal responsibility to examine that.
So I guess what might be good is. So guys, I'm. This is kind of like, how do I frame this? Because usually Laura and I go back and forth and like lead the topics. Today I'm leading it and talking to Laura about it. And then we're going to get Laura's takes her very hot intellectual takes on everything.
[00:11:33] Speaker A: Maybe not, maybe not intellectual. We will see.
[00:11:37] Speaker B: We'll see how it goes.
So I guess I'll start kind of explaining what defensiveness actually is from our perspective as psychologists.
So defensiveness is really just that moment when your threat detection system activates. So, you know, looking at the amygdala and how it's, sorry, responding to a perceived social threat, and it does this similarly to how it responds to an actual physical threat. So you guys probably have heard of fight, flight, freeze or fawn, but instead of it being like a physical reaction, it's a psychological reaction and emotional reaction. So.
And you do. We asked for some listener comments and I think I've got, you know, examples of almost every one of these. Fight, flight, freeze or fawn. I actually, I did a poll as well. I asked where is it?
I asked, do you get defensive if somebody says you've hurt them?
And no one said yes, even if I try not to or not usually everyone.
67% of people said I freeze or shut down.
So that's the freeze. And potentially. And then 33% of people said something else. So that could have been the fawn.
So I just thought that was, that was quite interesting to put into perspective.
[00:13:00] Speaker A: Yeah, and I think, interesting. It almost makes me feel like, you know, if someone tells you you've kind of hurt them, it's like that's, it's unexpected. Right. And I think that's something that can bring up a lot of this defensiveness or the freezing is when it is like something that we've done which is unintended. Like I didn't mean to cause harm or I didn't mean to say something that wasn't right.
And I think for me that's where I might kind of shut off if I'm like, whoa. I just didn't even kind of see it that way. Whereas almost like on a flip side, if it was like, well, you know what, perhaps you're hurt because actually I was being honest with you, I feel like I would have a different response then as rather than say freezing, I might actually have a more, I don't know, almost like a bit more of a useful response which is like, I understand you're feeling upset, but actually I'm sharing with you like something honest and something true. So I feel like there's almost two different situations there with one which is expected and one which might be more unexpected.
[00:14:06] Speaker B: That's actually a really good point. I think we'll get into that later on. Is because you can't always control when something is going to make you feel defensive.
So how do we almost work around that? So I think that'll be something to kind of explore. Explore once we've kind of set the stage a little bit of what defensiveness is.
Yes, because defensiveness is a very, very self protective mechanism that's triggered when we experience a threat to our self concept. So that's our idea of ourselves especially. And this links to what you were saying, our moral identity. So like your values and it's. We talk about cognitive dissonance a lot, but it's really rooted in cognitive dissonance. So that when that new information is conflicting with your existing beliefs, your existing self image and there's. It arises that there's some discomfort because of this. And so it's pretty easy when you feel this discomfort to kind of lash back out at this perceived threat.
So there's some key frameworks from a psychological perspective. So you've got ego threat.
So that's when somebody implies that you've done something wrong. We might interpret that as a threat to our worth or our identity. You have moral disengagement, which is old, old school bandura stuff. So you justify harmful or problematic actions to preserve your own moral self image. And then we've got self affirmation theory. So you're more open to challenge when you feel secure and your broader self worth. So that's also something that could be worked on as well.
And also I think it's important to take the social perspective, group membership. So that's like being like white or a woman or say a feminist or your political party really influences your personal reactions.
Were evolved to take group membership extremely seriously. And what you see psychologically is the more liberal people have a larger in group that they can accept and then the more conservative people have a smaller one. And so you see defensiveness actually differently within those kind. Within that sphere. I know I'm doing a line, but it's a sphere.
So if your group identity, so that's, you know, kind of like not all men, blah blah, blah, it's challenged people are more likely to defend the group, to protect, protect that sense of belonging. And that really has an evolutionary base. So I'll get into that a little bit more.
[00:16:42] Speaker A: And I always think it's so interesting with the social identity stuff. And I think this was some of Tajfal and Turner's original work where they literally just randomly assigned these boys, like literally randomly. Like they told the boys that they were grouped based on their preference for a certain painting, but it was just completely random. But you still notice this huge preference and I guess kind of protection over your in group rather than your out group, which is like. So even if you feel like you're part of a certain group or almost like even if there's not much rationale behind why you're in a certain group, these things still show up. Which I think is kind of scary.
[00:17:31] Speaker B: Right?
[00:17:31] Speaker A: You can just be randomly assigned and then we have all of these differences in perspectives, these differences in the way that we treat people, and then things like differences in defensiveness against certain viewpoints. If there is another group that is talking about something from a different perspective, it's just that automatic.
No, like I'm not agreeing with that. That defensiveness. I suppose that might come up totally.
[00:17:59] Speaker B: And it really shows you how easy it is for us to almost be put into these groups with no control over that whatsoever.
So like we said a couple episodes ago, it's not your fault if you've been taught certain ideas, like racist ideas, sexist ideas, things like that. But it is your responsibility to unlearn those. But it shows how easy it is to put people in certain social groups that they then are genetically evolutionarily programmed to defend.
And so it's actually the work of psychologists like us to overcome that, so I think it's, it's a really interesting thing right now when we have so many kind of people, rather than coming together, getting more ingrained in ideologies and scared to switch and all of the other mental health issues going on because of capitalism, patriarchy, white supremacy, all these broader things that are harming people, it makes it even harder to engage with this cognitive dissonance in a positive or like productive way because you are already feeling threatening, you know what I mean?
Yeah.
[00:19:16] Speaker A: So the threat kind of takes us further away from trying to kind of like what we were saying last week. How were we terming it? I don't know, like bursting that bubble, so to speak, or like cracking like the mask or whatever, like seeing through what's actually happening.
This almost like this defensiveness, this cognitive dissonance, it pushes you like a step back in a way, you know, and like you say it's not necessarily that that's anybody's fault.
It is like you say that self protecting mechanism, we're trying to get further away from the thing which is challenging us, which is making us feel uncomfortable. So it makes perfect sense that that is what would happen.
[00:19:57] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think just this lack of awareness that that exists is probably the first step to overcome. But I don't want to get too much into it right now because that's something I'll talk about at the end as well. I think it would be useful, like explain what some examples of protective defensive moves people make in everyday life. Because sometimes you can just think it's like, well, like, like pretty intense, like the stuff we get online or something like that defensiveness, when really it can show up in really small phrases, smaller interactions. So I feel like I'll dig into that a little bit. What do you think?
[00:20:33] Speaker A: Yes, I would love to know.
[00:20:35] Speaker B: I would love to know.
So one of the first things that kind of popped into my head is when people say, oh, that's not what I meant when they're called out on maybe a problematic thing that they've said. So what this does, it's centering your own intent over the impact you had on the person. So let's say you accidentally engaged in a racial microaggression, made an assumption about somebody that you didn't even know was based off of race, and they call you out on that behavior. Rightly so if you like don't say oh shit, sorry, like I didn't mean to offend you, rather than saying I.
[00:21:13] Speaker A: Love the oh, the oh at the.
[00:21:15] Speaker B: Beginning, no matter what you have to say, oh, you have to say, that's just part of overcoming your cognitive dissonance.
But if you're saying like, oh, that's not what I meant, that makes sense that you might have that reaction because you want to explain that, explain that you're a good person. But really it's centering your intent over the actual impact on that person. So that's one small way that it does it. A larger way is like. Like a gaslighting version is like, you're just being too sensitive.
So this is gaslighting somebody over their emotional experience if they're calling you out for something.
And that is a very common tactic especially used towards women, is saying, like, you're just being too sensitive. Because we've been taught that when we have emotions, it's wrong. You know what I mean?
Even so, we're often taught to not even listen to our emotions that tell us that something is wrong. Another common one is one of my least favorite things ever is I was just being the devil's advocate. Okay, so there's so many people who say this. I know. It's almost like, memeable to me at this point because it's. It's well known that it's like a crap thing to say. Like, it doesn't mean anything other than just kind of like trying to preserve your own neutrality, even though you're not neutral in the argument while still asserting your power and knowledge. And it's just a kind of a, for me, a really bad faith argument. You don't really ever have a good conversation after somebody says that.
[00:22:50] Speaker A: And I'm thinking, like, I'm trying to think. If there's any times when I've used this phrase, and I think I probably have, but I think it's in more of a context of I'm using it because I'm, like, worried that the other person is going to wonder why I'm asking such a question. Do you know what I mean? So it's almost like a statement, perhaps, that I'm using almost to protect myself in case someone's like, whoa, Laura, like, that's a crazy thing to ask.
So it's like, well, no, no, no. I was just playing devil's advocate. But then that is almost like you're removing responsibility from yourself and putting it on to. Well, I know I was just in this, like, role.
[00:23:35] Speaker B: I think that's a really good example of how safety plays the role in managing perceived threat and defensiveness and almost evidence of defensiveness being a result of feeling threatened. So if you are in an environment where you feel like you need to provide a reason for providing, like, well, because. Because we live in a world, excuse me, in academia, where criticality and applying a critical lens to everything we do is super important.
And so. But if you feel like you have to justify where you're doing that, why you're doing that, but you don't feel safe enough to do so, that could generate some defensiveness. So while there's a reason for the defensiveness, it's still, I guess, classed as that. So it just would be something interesting to explore about that environment, about what in that situation makes that kind of feeling come up, if that makes sense.
[00:24:34] Speaker A: Yeah, totally.
[00:24:36] Speaker B: I've got a couple more, but I won't. There's like, probably a long list, but another problematic one that I see a lot sometimes with the older generation is like, I didn't grow up with that language.
So using still like racist, homophobic, sexist language still as jokes is a very common one. Jokes where like, they hate their wives all the time is like a very common one. And so like invoking this kind of ignorance as a shield against accountability really just drives me nuts. Because all you would have to say in that situation is, again, shit, I didn't know that.
Oh, shit, I didn't know that meant that I. I am sorry, how do I say it instead? Because, yes, you know, so I just feel like some people run away from accountability.
Another version of that is I was just joking, which I also seen a lot of people do, is like, I called out a lot of people for that because it's again, changing that intent over impact kind of thing. Jack's called out some people for racist behavior before and they'll be like, oh, I was just joking. What? Why is that funny?
[00:25:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:25:43] Speaker B: And then I guess following up from last episode, we could dig into the not all men kind of thing a little bit more in depth.
So kind of how that face value, it sounds like a clarifying statement, like what you were saying. But. But in actual context, what it does is it is more of like a deflection than anything. It's that group protection that I was talking about. So it recenters the conversation onto the person, their need to feel kind of like exempt from the critique that you're giving, if that's what they're saying it in response to, rather than kind of like staying there thinking about it.
Like, what's the actual issue here? Like, when we say something that is about patriarchy, a lot of men think that means mental health and they'll take it personally and say not all men, instead of actually listening and understanding that it's actually about male violence, sexism, entitlement to women's bodies and things like that. And that's really protecting men's identity to socialize. I mean, that there protects their identity to associate their worth as being like a good guy.
So, like, critique can kind of feel like.
Like a moral condemnation. Like. But I'm good. I know I'm good. Right?
[00:27:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:02] Speaker B: It also is protecting power and comfort. So it's stopping, like us from digging into those uncomfortable truths about like, patriarchal systems, which can actually make people quite uncomfortable because no matter what, we're a little bit complicit in those systems. And then. And then lastly, like that social belonging again. So if the man is hearing this critique in a group setting, especially saying not all men can signal, like, alliance with other men in the group and protect that identity. So that's just like a kind of more in. In depth digging into something that we. I get a lot on the Internet and I think we get a lot in the work we do in sport as well. Because even when we were presenting a few weeks ago, was it for.
Yes, the guy on there was really, really nice.
But it was definitely like a. I'm not like this kind of attitude.
[00:27:57] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:58] Speaker B: Which he did come out get over very quickly, but. And recognize that uncomfortability. So it was a really constructive environment. And he recognized that.
[00:28:09] Speaker A: And I think that that's interesting. I think in itself, the importance of we need to have like. Like the environment. So important having a constructive environment, allowing people to kind of voice their.
Yeah. Their perspectives. Whether that is something we feel, I guess is like, right or wrong. But also offering space for like, pause. Because as you were talking there, the whole, like, I was just feeling this sense of it's such a reactive kind of response. Is a very reactive kind of behavior. Right. To be defensive against something.
Like you say, it's like straight away, it's feeling that you're being attacked rather than thinking, okay, let me just like, press pause. What is this person actually saying here?
And I do this all the time. Right. Like at home. Like, Matt will say something, and I'm instantly like, oh, did I do something wrong? Like, this is something I've done. And I'm suddenly like, oh, my gosh, like, what have I done? Like, I'm so sorry. Like, what's happening? Like, I don't know. But there can just be these, like, very almost like automatic responses and behaviors that come up when we are confronted with something that makes us feel comfortable, makes us feel like we've done something wrong, makes us feel like a bad person. Whereas the comment might not even be aimed towards what we're thinking.
So it's always like the human brain is always trying to make these shortcuts and it's really our job to try and like, let's just like press pause for a minute. But sometimes because the world is so fast paced though, sometimes we just don't have time to do that.
[00:29:51] Speaker B: Yeah, and, and that it's. I love the way you put that. Because the brain makes shortcuts and that's where we get these various different biases from. So we've got attribution bias, which is essentially a shortcut.
So we ju. We're judging ourselves by our own intent because we know what it is and we're judging others by the impact they're having on us.
And then you have confirmation bias, also known as motivated reasoning. Essentially you interpret new info in a way that confirms your existing beliefs and fits into hierarchies that are already there.
So you know, thinking about being raised in systems that maybe, maybe if you were raised in a really small town that has very old school beliefs, going out into a very progressive world can feel like such a massive threat.
And you're only going to pick up on information potentially because of the way, you know, neural, you're neurally structured. That confirms your own bias. And that's just a brain short shortcut that just makes life very difficult. So that's like some examples of actual, like defensive moves.
Let's talk about kind of the more nuanced sociological layers because it's not just an individual psychological thing like we've been talking about.
If we're looking at something like whiteness and masculinity, I think, you know, gendered relations and being white is something that we could probably talk about comfortably. So there's the concept of white fragility, which probably when I first learned about it back at, you know, my undergrad, I was very defensive about the concept in general because I had never been exposed to it before. But it describes how white people can. Obviously we respond with quite a bit of defensiveness, some denial hood. Denial hood. There we go. There's. There it is.
[00:31:41] Speaker A: I love this word.
[00:31:42] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:31:43] Speaker A: Brand new world. You heard it first here. Yeah.
[00:31:47] Speaker B: We need to start making like a dictionary of the words I accidentally make up.
[00:31:51] Speaker A: Oh my gosh, I would love that.
[00:31:53] Speaker B: We need like somebody to make that for us.
[00:31:57] Speaker A: Maybe that needs to be my job. To write things down that you say, I think that.
[00:32:01] Speaker B: I think that you have enough jobs.
But like white people, we can sometimes respond with, you know, feeling very defensive, respond with denial or like the victim, when our racial worldview is challenged. And it's not necessarily always conscious, but it really is a way to shut down the conversation.
And that's really limited to the white woman tears phenomenon. That is so true because white people have. In a white supremacist society, which the Western world is more cultural capital. And so it really adds to this, like, gendered layer as well. So when white women cry in response to being called out, it shifts that emotional labor back onto the person raising the issue in the first place. And usually that falls back on somebody who's not white.
And what starts as maybe like a challenge to power becomes a really a performance of victimhood. It's not real victimhood. And it recent re centers the sympathy on the dominant group. And it's important to point out that these are very, very dangerous things, because white woman tears have resulted in the deaths of many, many black people in America over time.
And so it's not like, oh, it's just this concept that, no, it has real world ramifications. Defensiveness isn't just the small utterances of. I was just kidding. They can be really weaponized in society and weaponized to center the dominance group's preferences and emotions. And then if we're looking at something like hegemonic masculinity, which we write about in our paper, our smile, more paper, it kind of discourages vulnerability. And so we talk about that gendered binary, excuse me, of what emotions you're allowed to express. But it discourages that vulnerability and reinforces that need for defensiveness is actually a strength. You know what I mean? It's actually how you show off your masculinity. Because it's framing, like, if you were to be vulnerable in that moment and say, I met, oh, shit, I messed up, it frames this vulnerability as a weakness. So, like, real men should be strong, stoic, in control, and admitting fault, or even, like, appearing, like, not certain about something you've just said can threaten that masculine identity.
So a lot of the time, that defensiveness becomes a really go to strategy for protecting your identity as a man. And this is literally why people call it fragile masculinity. Because if your masculinity is so threatened, if your defenses are so easily brought up by just a basic critique of a patriarchal system, not even a personal attack, then your masculinity isn't very strong in the first place. You know what I mean?
It would be like if somebody, if somebody said something about white woman tears and I automatically got really defensive because I am white and I am a woman.
[00:35:06] Speaker A: You're almost seeing it from, you're not seeing it from like that personal attack perspective. You're seeing it on this maybe slightly more zoomed out, broader level. But then also I suppose you have an understanding of that. You have an understanding of what's happening kind of within society.
Whereas I suppose for someone who perhaps doesn't even know the term, know the concept, like know, I guess, the events that have kind of surrounded like that term, then there's an automatic assumption that they're being attacked as like a white woman. I suppose totally.
[00:35:40] Speaker B: It's because they have so much stake in that identity that any threat to it, to call it out is like, makes your hackles go up. And, and I'll get into why a little bit. But there's a very important responsibility on people to engage with why that's happening in themselves. Because this can also lead to some like gaslighting and tone policing. So like dominant groups, which we talk about a lot, they really maintain comfort and power by framing anger, being upset, or just like critique in general as inappropriate. Being told that you're overreacting to something when it's just like an emotion that you should be allowed to have. There's a lot of tone policing. So you'd be so much more persuasive in your argument if you were calmer when really the person's just being very passionate.
And so that kind of stuff kind of just reflames how. Refrain, reflames. Oh my God.
It reframes how the person's delivering their critique as problematic instead of actually listening to the critique like the actual contents of the critique.
And so that just really serves to uphold the power hierarchies by just, you know, invalidating those emotional experiences of people who might have, have less social capital in that society.
[00:37:07] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:37:08] Speaker B: And this, this leads to the double bind that we discuss a lot from marginalized people. So whether you're non white, queer folks, disabled people, cultural expectations are different and usually contradictory. So you're expected to teach kind of like with kindness. So we work a lot in gender, we talk a lot about how to deliver like this information.
And it's hard because we're a psychologist. And so we do have a duty on one hand, but then we're extra tone policed about how we're delivering this information. So we're expected to deliver this very, very kindly.
And if we assert boundaries or maybe don't deliver it softly or even showing passion and anger about it, we can be basically just not taken seriously.
This is something that Kimberly Crenshaw, the kind of main voice in intersectionality, talks about a lot. Like, for example, what's seen as passion or leadership in a white man is often framed as hostility in a black woman. So it's just kind of like you either have to educate kindly, not express anger, and constantly anticipate the other people's or. Or other groups discomfort to try and get your message across without them being defensive. Does that make sense?
[00:38:28] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I think there is such a. I think there is like a.
I don't know if it's a fine line, but there's some sort of line, right? In terms of. It's almost like what we were talking with Oliver about. In terms of, yes, it can be useful to gently lead somebody to these perspectives so that they can slowly come to that realization themselves. But then you provided such a great point around, well, is it really our job to therapize everybody? And I thought that was a really kind of nice word to use with it. And I think that perhaps if we're in more of a teaching role, like, maybe there is some. Maybe that line shifts a little bit. Maybe we have a bit more responsibility to help to guide.
But certainly just in your general society, it's not necessarily that. Just say, in this case, just because we're women, we have to be kinder and we have to handhold everybody to these conclusions. So I think as well, it's kind of very contextual in terms of what that looks like. But then it is also.
Yeah, it's, it's a lot of energy. Again, it's a lot of energy trying to figure out how we place ourselves, how we should deliver certain information.
Even like, sometimes I'm like, if I deliver this too intensely, maybe people aren't going to listen to me. They just think I'm being ridiculous. But actually that's like almost the natural way you want to say it.
[00:40:07] Speaker B: That's like just that alone is you having to think about how you're saying it before you say it. Can you. Do you know how many people do not do that?
[00:40:18] Speaker A: Like.
[00:40:21] Speaker B: Like, like, especially like a neurotypical white dude generally doesn't have to.
Like, I talk about this Jack a lot. He like, does a little bit, obviously, because he's a good person. He doesn't just like say everything that he wants to say, but like I. It just was interesting for him to learn how much, like, we would overthink. And I put in heavy quotes because for some people, you do have to think that way for your own safety or your progression or things like that. And to a certain extent, like, we have it so easy compared to other people as well, because we operate with so much privilege in navigating this. And so, you know, obviously we're sharing our experiences, not trying to be like, victims or anything like that. But I think it is really important to note that, you know, us being autistic women can make it very difficult to not raise people's defenses. I make a lot of people feel defensive almost immediately, and usually it's a very specific type of person.
And like, And. And it makes my life a little bit more difficult sometimes, but I've stopped caring so much. So.
[00:41:38] Speaker A: Okay. I was gonna ask, like, how do you feel like being on the receiving end of a lot of defensiveness? Or is that something that you've just gotten used to?
[00:41:49] Speaker B: It's like, I've gotten used to it, and now that I understand why, I think it's better.
So I used to manage, like, perception manage like we've been talking about in a couple other episodes so much, not even knowing that I was doing it. I thought everyone was doing that. And try and, like, really just dampen myself down a little bit.
Kind of make my tone a bit more feminine and I. Delivery a little bit softer, dampen my special interests, not call out problematic behavior and. And just kind of like, try and fit in and. Because when I was called out on something, something that was acting a bit different or outside the norm and heavy quotes, it would make me feel really threatened. Like, oh, I didn't. Okay, that's my word for the episode. Apparently that's gonna be the title for this episode.
But why. Oh, so. And I think understanding firstly, you know, having the luck of being a psychologist who works within sociology as well, like, kind of in the. How the systems impact our psychology. That's helpful because understanding a concept is pretty much the first step to, like, under. To like, accepting why it is. Then also understanding that a lot of it's because I'm autistic. And we just know from.
From loads of research and our personal experiences. Because, you know, centering people's experiences is probably more important than a lot of problematic research that's out there on autism, that people. Just allistic people. So allistic means non autistic. Just automatically just don't like autistic people. There's just Something there that, like on first impressions now obviously that can change over time and stuff like that, but first impressions are usually. They just don't like us.
[00:43:51] Speaker A: Oh, no.
[00:43:52] Speaker B: Oh, no.
[00:43:53] Speaker A: This is gonna spark off my, like, people pleasing tendencies.
[00:43:57] Speaker B: It should know. So I feel like it should make it. It should help with that because you can't control it because d how much. No matter how much people pleasing you're doing, it's not gonna work.
So.
[00:44:09] Speaker A: Oh, God, I've wasted 30 years of my life.
[00:44:12] Speaker B: Right. Yeah.
There is as well, I will say a bit of grief that comes with an autism diagnosis because you do realize that you've been doing a lot, lot of like, extra labor and dampening of yourself for a period of time. And it's kind of sad, but that's what I felt. And I've seen a lot of other people, autistic people kind of communicate that as well. So it's. If you ever do experience something like that, totally understandable.
[00:44:37] Speaker A: I think I might be getting there a bit more time.
[00:44:41] Speaker B: Sorry.
See how you feel after reading my. So Laura is on a critical autoethnography that I'm writing about some experience about being autistic, working in sport, and she's up next for reading the draft. And I just think, especially in light of your recent autism diagnosis, you might be a little triggered.
[00:45:06] Speaker A: I feel like all of my, like, comments are not going to be like, you know, how to make this a better academic paper. It's going to be like, oh, my God, this is me.
[00:45:15] Speaker B: Yeah.
There's so many points. I was like, I was like, I have a feeling Laura might identify with this a little bit.
[00:45:22] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm gonna be no use in making it a better paper.
I'm gonna enjoy it, I think.
[00:45:29] Speaker B: Yes, you will.
I'm really excited to see your takes anyway. We could probably go off on a rant about that. I think we need to discuss what is underneath all of this defensiveness. So we like kind of went into it a little bit like what? We went into like, like what it is. So we see that there's bias and that it's threat and stuff like that.
[00:45:48] Speaker A: But why?
[00:45:50] Speaker B: Because like I said, why. But why? We always like accidentally say it in an episode without even trying to.
[00:45:57] Speaker A: I love it when that, like, happens in a film and it's like they say it's hit the name of the film. So is the best.
[00:46:08] Speaker B: So a lot of you will probably know Brene Brown. She is the queen of shame research.
And I love her podcast, her book. She does a lot of Great stuff.
So I like her distinction about shame. So there's difference between guilt and shame. So guilt kind of says I did something bad, and shame says I am bad.
So a lot of the time people attribute, like, critique or things that make them defensive to something about them as a person.
So you are bad or you are toxic. When we were talking about toxic masculinity or stuff like that, rather than a critique being like, you personally did something bad, but that doesn't make you a bad person. Do you know what I mean?
So shame in itself is particularly toxic because it doesn't really lead to any change. It more leads to kind of avoidance. So that's hiding some denial and then pushing that blame outward, like I briefly kind of described.
Because, you know, defensiveness becomes a natural kind of, like, survival strategy. So admitting fault feels like you're confirming what, like, I guess like a natural human fear is that you're just not worthy.
So there's that distinction. Is when you're feeling defensive, is.
Is this activating, like, the shame response, or am I feeling guilty? Because both are very valid, but you can only really work with one. And really, guilt is a ingrained human emotion that we evolved over time because we relied on groups for safety. So this fear of exclusion from a group. So if you feel shame, if you feel unworthy, then you feel like you're going to be excluded from your group.
And so that's why you want to protect your group identity. If you have an in group, especially if it's an in group with a lot of power, but from, like, an evolution. Oh, sorry, Go.
[00:48:16] Speaker A: I was just thinking how for somebody to drop the defensiveness, it is. Well, it is all about, like, you have to be quite comfortable almost within yourself. You have to be quite strong within yourself to be able to be like, you know what? Yeah, like I'm gonna listen to you here. This is something that is making me uncomfortable. And maybe I recognize that my perspective isn't right here. You know what I mean?
It takes a lot, I think, to be able to get to that point. And I'm not at all saying that that then gives people permission to be defensive in a kind of mean or a detrimental way, if you like. I think defensiveness to an extent is kind of very normal.
But I just think there's so much work that has to go in behind people being able to open up and not just think with that initial reaction, not just think with that, I suppose.
Well, I guess with the guilt and shame.
But it's so normal.
[00:49:30] Speaker B: It's so normal. It's hardwired into us.
I think that almost relates back to kind of the fragility versus strength. Like, it takes a very strong person to sit with the uncomfort. Uncomfortability and kind of try and make that more productive. That's why we say, like, if somebody's getting defensive about us critiquing the patriarchy, that means their masculinity might be fragile. It's not strong because if they had a strong sense of masculinity, then they wouldn't be. So that wouldn't, like, immediately threaten you as a person, as, like, your worth in your group and your society. Does that make sense?
[00:50:10] Speaker A: Yeah. Yes. And I think even, like, off the back of that, then there can be a defensiveness around you being told that you're being defensive. So there might even be, like, for any of you guys kind of listening to the podcast now, there might be some defensiveness if you're like, well, no, like, I'm never defensive about anything because it can be difficult to say, you know what? Yeah, I was really defensive on that day.
And that, I think, is a kind of good example to lead off in itself.
It's almost like it's. It is. It's. It's the accountability of it really.
[00:50:43] Speaker B: It really is. I think that it really factors into kind of how we could do better as people, which I'll get into in a little bit. But I just want to provide people a little bit more context as to why evolutionary this happens. For, like, an evolutionary psychology kind of point, point of view, social rejection could literally mean death.
[00:51:03] Speaker A: So.
[00:51:04] Speaker B: So we're wired to seek this connection, this belonging. So anything that kind of threatens that place in a group, whether that's like a confrontation or criticism or even sometimes like a really gentle correction, can light up the same neural pathways as physical pain. And sometimes we're not just trying to defend ourselves. It's kind of like this stories about who we think we are. And so, you know, we want to be viewed as good individually, but also we also don't want to be excluded from the group. And so if it's a bit of a psychological unraveling. So if I'm not as good as I thought I am, who am I?
[00:51:42] Speaker A: Do you know what I mean? Oh, my goodness, yes. And that panic, I think sometimes I get almost a bit of panic, like, well, if it's not this, then what is it? And, like, why wasn't. Why didn't I know about it yet? Or why am I seeing it in this way?
And that can be really uncomfortable.
[00:51:58] Speaker B: The human brain does not like not knowing it. And that's why we have biases.
That's why we have these biases. What you termed earlier, like shortcuts. Neural shortcuts. Yes. Is because we evolutionarily need to be able to fill in the gaps. It's the same reason why we. If it's dark out and we see like an extra dark patch or we don't know if something's in between a bush and we're like, I don't like not knowing what's there. That's making me feel a bit defensive. Or like I just feel like I need to. To know what that is. I'm kind of scared. It's an evolutionary thing. It's the same thing with not knowing what people are thinking or.
And stuff. Are we just are not meant to not know? But that's just also part of life. So it, it's just like the. Like you said earlier, the context matters so, so, so much. You could almost look at your def as like an unknown shadow or an unknown sound.
[00:52:53] Speaker A: Oh.
[00:52:54] Speaker B: Do you know what I mean?
[00:52:56] Speaker A: And it makes me think as well, like if I've been watching a horror film or something, I'm always like running up the stairs to go to bed or it's really dark and I'm like, oh my God, like something is definitely gonna kill me. But I suppose maybe that almost in comparison to what we're talking about, I wouldn't like. Because if I'm watching, I don't know, it's always, if I have been exposed to, say something scary like a horror film, where then we are going to be experiencing, you know, more of that fear. I suppose so sometimes it's like, I guess that exposure doesn't necessarily always help. And I suppose it's trying to explore how can we do it in a way that is helpful. But I suppose it's that repeated exposure to it. Like if I watch a horror film every single night, I'm probably not going to care anymore. I was not necessarily not care, but I'm perhaps going to have a less adverse reaction to it because actually I. I understand maybe whatever's going on. I don't know if we've gone too far with this metaphor.
[00:53:55] Speaker B: No.
[00:53:56] Speaker A: Do you know what I mean?
[00:53:57] Speaker B: I love that. I think there's two directions I could take that my brain's going so in terms of like exposure. So almost like mini exposure therapy. It's totally. You're totally right. Because it's almost like if you're in an insulated area you're not used to critique maybe about sex, gender, race, things like that. And then if you go into a more progressive area and you're constantly criticized, but then over time you're more used to it and your views expand and things like that, that's literally just exposure to the uncomfortability, getting used to having more difficult conversations. And that's one of the great things about say, like, university is you come for everyone's coming from like various different areas and then exposed to various types of. Types of thought. And you do see this kind of like maybe earlier undergrad students can be quite defensive with their views. But then throughout time, you know, to where, like maybe graduation from their undergrad, maybe into a master's program, they start to be a little bit more open to various different ideas. They might not feel that defensiveness straight away because there's almost this understanding that there's other ideas out there, even if they don't agree with them.
[00:55:08] Speaker A: Yes.
And I cannot remember what the name of this thing is, but it's basically that concept of, you know, the more you know, the less you know. I can't remember what. I can't remember what the thing is that there's a proper name, but it's kind of like that. So, yeah, I guess in your undergrad you start off, you don't have that much information, but maybe you feel like you know everything, right? You feel you're almost like on top of the world. But then the more you learn, the more you figure out, the more you realize you do not know. And then perhaps that does lead to that openness of actually, yeah, I don't know everything. Can I. And you. I always like to kind of try and approach the world with like, everybody has something that they can teach me, you know, Especially when we're viewing the world through, you know, seeing everybody as having like unique experiences and unique perspectives. I think that's so important that we are open to those things rather than just thinking it's like all the way or the highway.
[00:56:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I. I like that a lot. And I think also we should note that.
What's the reason? Loads of research on it, but I forget the term. There's another term for it that I can't figure out. But the less you know, the more you think you know as well. So there's like a confidence behind that lack of knowledge because you think you know everything, whereas the more you learn and the more you recognize that you don't know everything sometimes can contribute to imposter syndrome or just like, a decrease in confidence about your level of knowledge and, I don't know, like, ability. So I think that's also an interesting one here.
[00:56:41] Speaker A: I've Googled it. It's the Dunning crew. Griffith.
[00:56:44] Speaker B: Yes.
One of my favorite political commentators on the damage report refers to that for Marjorie Taylor Greene a lot, which is literally exact. You'll have no idea what I'm talking about.
[00:56:54] Speaker A: I've got no idea what any of that means.
[00:56:56] Speaker B: But my American listeners, you know who I'm. You know exactly what I mean. So I don't need to go off on a tangent. But I also want to bring up what you said about the, like, the scary movie. And you're like, tense body and you're like, running up the stairs so you don't get murdered by the creature from the ring or whatever.
And so I think this is one of the ways that we can actually do better.
So you might like. It's. It's called affects tolerance, but essentially it's a exposure therapy and a bit of mindfulness and understanding of your body.
So we know that simply, like noticing our physiological response to something can change your response to something.
So think about a moment. This is something we would probably do in a session with somebody is have them do this. So think about a moment that you've been very defensive.
What physical experiences are happening. Don't think about your emotions. Don't think about your thoughts. What was happening in your body? So is there, like a surge of heat? Like, your face gets all red? Are you feeling tight, intense? Do you feel a lot of urgency?
And so I think recognizing that is really important. If we're paying attention to our bodily responses rather than what's going on in our messy mind, it gives us that space to respond instead of reacting.
So recognizing that you are feeling defensive in that moment because of your, like, you're. You're experiencing evolutionary responses in your body as a result of what's happening. And then that gives you the space to also say, I'm feeling defensive instead of I am. Right. Do you know what I mean? Is recognizing what's happening, I think, is a major step because then you can approach the situation differently.
[00:58:42] Speaker A: Yes. And it's that it's. Yeah, I notice I'm feeling like X, Y, Z. And that's really how, you know, I guess, like you say, from the. More, like, mindfulness approaches, we're really taught to understand and work with our emotions rather than either letting them lead or ignoring them and resisting them. Saying, actually, yeah, I noticed that this is coming up, like, isn't that interesting? It's more like this curiosity around how interesting I'm responding in this way. But it does take time to kind of get. Get to that point. And I always give the example of when I first really started engaging with consistent mindfulness practice. One of the things I noticed was that I'd stubbed my toe on the bed or something and I wouldn't. You know, when you stub your toe, you're like, oh my goodness, like, it's the end of the world, I'm going to die. But I stubbed my toe and I was just like, oh.
[00:59:35] Speaker B: I kind of.
[00:59:35] Speaker A: Noticed that my toe feels a bit weird. But there like wasn't like that reaction. And it was. That's crazy strange.
That's exactly what this is. It's that pause, right? It's that pause we were talking about earlier.
And we can work to kind of help ourselves to kind of expand that, that pause, if you like.
[00:59:54] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. I absolutely love that, like existing in the pause, like, and thinking and things like that.
And I think it's also, this is why we need that pause. We recognize that defensiveness is a sign of like, clashing values. So that cognitive dissonance, somebody's behavior doesn't align with how they're seeing themselves. So which can be quite painful.
But it's like, it's a useful emotion.
So people can learn to pause in that discomfort and give themselves some self compassion. Now, that doesn't mean excusing that harm. It means like holding space for the pain without kind of, of collapsing or externalizing or going back at the person. So you can do some self affirmation exercises to increase your own openness to criticism. Kind of like what we were talking about before.
So we see. Sherman and Cohen have done some really good research that demonstrates when people affirm their core values before receiving criticism, they're more open to it. Now, obviously you can't always predict when you're going to receive criticism, but if you can be really, I guess, secure in your own values, that something's not going to threaten them, then that is going to lessen that automatic response. If I remember that I'm a good friend, a caring parent, you know, somebody who values fairness, I won't need to feel, I won't feel like I need to prove it constantly in these moments where something might be being called out and like using that curiosity as a buffer, why am I reacting this way?
Shifting your brain from fight or flight. So just more of an awareness, I suppose.
[01:01:32] Speaker A: And something I've actually had in my mind throughout this whole episode is this question of where is the line between, say, defensiveness and it being a negative thing or standing up for yourself or.
Yeah, kind of. Kind of in that sense. And I think what you're saying here is making me almost maybe like answer my own question a little bit in that actually if you are almost pausing in that moment and thinking about, well, why am I gonna say, say this thing back? Why am I gonna respond in this way? Is it actually a meaningful thing to kind of put back to somebody? Or is it actually not almost like worth it in this setting? And I think it's perhaps the difference between defensiveness and saying something to say back yourself up or yeah, have your own back, so to speak, is more about the intent behind it. Perhaps it's more that I've thought about it and I'm saying it for this good reason. It isn't just this instant reaction because I think that there is something that is important or somewhere that there's like an overlap almost between these two ideas.
[01:02:52] Speaker B: Yeah. Like how do you recognize when to defend yourself and when to. When you're actually being defensive? And I think you're totally right. It's all about context and like developing those skills to understand what's going on inside your body and your brain. And just like that, self knowledge will help you know when to kind of put your foot down and stand up for yourself or others. And when it's actually just challenging something and making you uncomfortable and that.
That's more of what's happening.
[01:03:19] Speaker A: Yes. Thank you. I feel like you articulated that so much better than.
[01:03:23] Speaker B: No, I feel like you did.
I think like knowing that. That it's. It's from like a sociological kind of point of view, we need to understand that being less defensive, it's not just like a personal thing. It's interpersonal, it's political, it's part. Part of redistribution, redistributes. Part of redistributing emotional labor and accountability from just like certain people throughout society.
So you can learn if you've got certain ideas and maybe you have a lot of privilege that hasn't been challenged much. You can learn to tolerate this discomfort without recentering yourself as a victim and just making space for people. Because being. I say this to people all the time.
Being uncomfortable is not a failure, it's feedback. So if you're uncomfortable, say experiencing ambivalence or cognitive dissonance, it's a sign that you're living in a moment of learning. It's not like a failure on your part. I just thought I'd throw out some practical phrases for, like, self regulation in these moments and then maybe go into a few listener stories and kind of like deconstruct them a little bit, see what's going on. So these phrases, they're not just kind of trying to regulate your tone. They're going to shift your mindset. Just those reflective statements. Like, I noticed that I want to defend myself. Can I sit with that?
I need to take a breath before I respond. I hear that I intended. I. Oh, my God, I cannot speak. It's because it's like 7:00pm and I'm like, just.
[01:04:57] Speaker A: It's like tick half six and you.
[01:04:59] Speaker B: Yeah. Nope, nope, nope.
I should. I should be on the couch right now.
Like this phrase, I hear that I caused harm, even if it wasn't my intention. And I'm open to learning even if I don't understand yet, because people feel like if they don't fully understand something straight away, that it's sometimes not worth it. So those are just some like, potentially useful phrases to kind of try and integrate into your. Even put it in your, you know, notes app, on your phone, whatever, you.
[01:05:28] Speaker A: Know, and it might even, even be. And I know, may maybe this kind of comes under the coddling side or the therapizing side side, but I feel like if you feel like there is also worth in you almost like, allowing people that space, you know, perhaps you've said something and you notice there's a load of defensiveness, maybe there's some way, almost like without being patronizing, which I guess can be kind of hard, but trying to help people to create space and sit with things rather than say that turning into, like a defensive argument. Because even if we're doing our best not to be defensive, it doesn't mean that we're not gonna, you know, into arguments with people who are throwing ridiculous things back at us. So I suppose, again, say it's an interpersonal thing. There are two people in that conversation.
Can one of them try and create that space and that pause. Yes. Not always possible.
[01:06:24] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's a really important thing.
There are multiple people involved in this interaction. So thinking about your own personal responsibility in this moment, your safety in that moment, the context as well, I think is really important.
So on that note, we've got a few listener stories, and I don't know, I've got four. I've got four. So I don't know if we have time for all of them.
[01:06:51] Speaker A: So I see If I want to.
[01:06:52] Speaker B: Hear them, you want to hear all of them. Okay.
[01:06:54] Speaker A: Let's just do it.
[01:06:56] Speaker B: So the first one was anonymous. I was asked not to say their name. My partner told me I wasn't listening. When they were upset, I got defensive and said, I'm always listening. I always listen. You're just being dramatic. Then I realized later on I was more so.
Oh, my God.
But then I realized later on I was more scared of being seen as uncaring than actually trying to understand.
So basically saying, like, I was more worried about her perception of my caring for her than actually trying to understand what she meant. Do you know what I mean?
[01:07:33] Speaker A: Yes, totally. It's almost like. Like a. It's almost like a paradox because it's like you care so much about being, say that partner who listens and who is caring that you become defensive when you're told that you're not, which is actually being, in a sense, uncaring. You know what I mean?
[01:07:54] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, totally.
[01:07:56] Speaker A: Really, it's really difficult, and I think it's something that a lot of us experience or who have, you know, been in that situation.
Especially when, you know, there's been times when Matt Wolf say to me, like, oh, you're not, like, listening to what I'm saying, or you're like, interrupting me or something, and I will end up being quite defensive about it rather than stopping and being like, okay, there's something here that I don't know I'm doing that isn't Maybe not quite right, but that isn't accounting for him within that space and within that conversation.
[01:08:32] Speaker B: Yeah, because I feel like your partner is like your main in group, isn't it? So anything that could be perceived as a threat to that can be quite scary, especially if it's coming from that other person.
So it makes sense that you would automatically have a really intense relation.
Oh, my gosh, I'm just collapsing real time. A really, really intense attend.
No, a really into a really intense reaction to that.
So, like, in the context of this guy, like, this fear of being the bad guy, and this is why I think a lot of men say not all men is they don't want to be the bad guy because it leads to shame, because it's like an attack on their value system.
And so just like understanding that shame versus guilt, like, it doesn't mean you're a bad person, but you did do something wrong and you need to be able to lean into that, especially if you want to be, like, emotionally intimate with your partner. And there's a reason so many people don't have these, like, great communicative relationships is because they can't get past that step of exploring those, like, sometimes smaller issues that just. Just end up being bigger issues because of the defensiveness.
[01:09:42] Speaker A: And I think it's interesting as well how important these conversations are, like, in relationships. Like, I know we haven't really touched on defensiveness like, in relationships, but I think all of this stuff is so relevant and can be so helpful within that.
[01:09:55] Speaker B: Totally. We could totally do an episode on that alone because I feel like there's a lot there.
So this next one's from Suzanne, and she said it's really easy to get defensive sometimes with my kids. So when I set boundaries for screen time and they're not happy about it, I feel like I have to constantly remind myself that the I'm your parent, not your friend vibe of my own childhood isn't right and that my kids are just trying out, negotiating, and just also really want to watch TV after school.
So I thought that was a really interesting reflection to recognize defensiveness, do you know what I mean? Because I don't know if I would recognize that as defensiveness in myself, you know what I mean? Because I. I probably would interpret that more as, like, being frustrated, but it actually, it is defensiveness because it's almost like this kind of power dynamic, maybe fear of losing your authority and authority over here. Kids can be super important for safety, for sanity, you know, stuff like that.
And there definitely is this link between feeling the need for control and defensiveness.
[01:11:03] Speaker A: Yes, totally. And it's. What is. It's that defensiveness of, well, this is a rule that we've set, and this is what it's going to be. And I think I can be like that with certain things. Obviously, I don't have kids, so I think it's, you know, such a challenging thing, which I probably do not recognize how difficult that is. But even with me, just, like, setting certain things, or if something. Somebody's not quite listening, then it does bring up that defensiveness. And I think for me, it's a sense of almost like, well, should I even be doing it this way? Like, is this the best thing to do?
And then it sounds like there's also within that, like, a conflict of, well, when I was younger, it was done in this way.
So do I revert to that, or do I do something different? It's almost like there's a defensiveness almost of, like, uncertainty kind of bubbles up, you know?
[01:12:01] Speaker B: Yeah, it's like, you can. You can do so much to, to unlearn stuff, stuff from when you were a kid, but it's still really wired into your neurology. And so sometimes it's going to be your first reaction. And it sounds like this person has done a really good job of taking that space to figure it out 100%.
[01:12:22] Speaker A: And it makes me think a little bit of almost like when you are, say, let's say in this situation you're trying to implement a new rule and maybe the rule one day it doesn't really work and it doesn't really have the intended result. It's so easy to then change that and to try and do something different.
But it doesn't necessarily mean that that isn't the right thing to do. And I think that sometimes, I guess if we're with seeing this through this lens of defensiveness, it can almost make us change what we're doing or change our decisions or go back on what we were saying. But actually it might be the right route to go. We just need to almost allow it to play out. Sit in that discomfort and see what happens.
Sometimes we can almost look to change solutions so quickly, but actually we don't need to.
[01:13:12] Speaker B: I totally agree.
It's like make it more of a thought process than that knee jerk reaction. I've got two more.
Two more. And then so they're on my phone because I didn't have time. I'm going crazy. Like I don't know.
So I have two from Madison. Madison sent me two. So we'll go through both of them.
She said, I think a lot of it has to do with self awareness and humility. It takes self awareness to recognize that you can be wrong about something and your actions aren't perfect. In our relationship. So her relationship with her husband, I think defensiveness comes from when we tell the other person they're doing something wrong. And sometimes the initial reaction is to be defensive. Then after some time thinking about it and reflection, we can both kind of come to realize that we're not able to hurt each other. And the other person might have a point.
I think she means we're not meeting to hurt each other. But that requires a lot of self awareness to do with that reflection and humility to tell that person that you were wrong to react that way.
[01:14:16] Speaker A: Yes. I think Madison needs to come and host the podcast. I think that's it.
That's totally it.
[01:14:21] Speaker B: That's correct. Yeah. Well done, Madison.
[01:14:24] Speaker A: Love it.
[01:14:24] Speaker B: I love that because it kind of reflects a lot of exactly what we were saying is Just like taking that space and that time and being the kind of person to recognize that. She phrases it as humility.
And I just would phrase the way I kind of look at it is being wrong doesn't mean that you're a bad person. It's that kind of like shame versus guilt thing.
And so she also said providing with us with a lot. Madison, thank you.
Defensiveness for me also happens when I have a hard time communicating what I'm really thinking in the moment because there are too many thoughts going on in my head at once and I can't quite piece together my feelings and words. So on Saturday, my husband needed to mow the lawn and do a couple of hours of yard work. Obviously this is important and helpful for our family, but I got really defensive and annoyed when he was getting ready to go do that because I felt like I wasn't getting a kid break after my long week of being with them on my own. I ended up telling him in the moment that I know that I know what he's doing is important, but for some reason I'm upset about it. That's great communication. When I later was able to tell him why, again, it required self awareness and humility to get through that process of having a defensive wall start to finish. It takes time to break that wall down and figure out what's next.
[01:15:43] Speaker A: I think it's such a good example though, like you say, of being able to reflect on it and respond to it in, I guess, a meaningful way. Almost makes me think of what I was saying before in terms of you could have easily just responded with so much defensiveness and been really pissed off and then had like an awful day, but actually giving yourself to process all of those thoughts and then actually ask or not even ask a question, but sharing this is what I'm noticing.
And then your partner being able to engage in that conversation with, with you as well. I think that's almost again, like, almost like a nice little kind of tie up where it's like, it's not that this information isn't useful. This information that we're getting from defensiveness is so useful. It's then learning how we use it and how do we articulate it in a purposeful way.
[01:16:35] Speaker B: Ooh, I love that you're so good at tying things together.
Is that our reflection for the episode then?
Yes, let's say yes, that's our reflection is sit with, you know, any kind of cognitive dissonance and defensiveness you're feeling and, and kind of try and understand why that's the case because defensiveness is supernatural. It's part of being human, but it can kind of either be that dead end or a doorway to growth.
Oh, exciting.
The goal isn't to like, just be like perfectly open all the time, but just kind of like willing to notice that kind of subtle shutdown, which it sounds like our listeners are actually quite good at doing. So well done, everyone. Very proud of you.
So I guess on that, thanks everyone for listening. As always, we probably left you with more questions than answers, but that's kind of the point.
We really enjoyed exploring the very, very human territory of defensiveness. So what it protects, what it costs us, and why being wrong can kind of feel like a personal attack or crisis.
If you guys have any thoughts, questions, if this made you defensive or have rage, who knows we want to hear it. Please drop a comment, message us, or shout into the void.
Though we do appreciate if you tag us. If there's a topic that you want us to dig into next, please get in touch. And if you like this episode, don't forget to follow like rate or scream about it from the rooftop and tell your friends. And you can find our links on the but why Instagram page. Head to the bio for everything. And remember, the first, first step to understanding is asking but why?
[01:18:17] Speaker A: Yay.
