Women's History: Two Steps Forward, One Step Back

[00:00:16] Speaker A: I feel like I look really pale right now. Why do I look so pale? [00:00:19] Speaker B: You? [00:00:20] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, no. Yeah. [00:00:26] Speaker B: But, yeah. Oh, my gosh. But I had such a Cool. So on the teaching thing I do. It was such a good session with this woman. But she came in and she spoke to us about, like, decolonizing the curriculum. Oh, de. [00:00:41] Speaker A: Colonization. Yeah. [00:00:42] Speaker B: Yes. Oh, my gosh. And she was just such an amazing, like, speaker. And, like, she just. She gave so much history. Well, like, black history behind, like, Liverpool and, like, slavery and things like that. And it was just so interesting to hear about even things like. Because I'm, you know, me. I'm really, really bad at, like, history, at, like, politics. I'm awful. So I also apologize if I say anything wrong when I'm talking about this, but. Yeah, so she was talking about, like, how we were so we, as in, like, Britain. What do they call it? British Empire, were like, asking for, you know, the other countries that they'd kind of conquered to, like, help out in the war and so on. And so a lot of kind of black and, like, Caribbean, like, men would come across and fight in the wars for us. But she was saying how there is, like, no documentation or, like, there's no representation, like, in the news or anything. When you're talking about, like, the. [00:01:49] Speaker A: The war, isn't that the Wind R generation? [00:01:53] Speaker B: I think. I think so, yeah. [00:01:55] Speaker A: That's crazy. [00:01:56] Speaker B: And she then kind of likened it or kind of paralleled it too. So after the war, when basically all of the black men that had come over were, like, told, you can't have any of the jobs. Like, there are jobs, and there were riots and, like, white people standing outside of hotels, like, wanting to harm black people, basically. But then she was saying how this kind of came full circle, or not full circle circle, but, like, this hasn't. It hasn't stopped. So if you think about last year, do you remember the riots, like, with. With, like, asylum seekers, so riots against asylum seekers and things like that that were happening in the uk So I thought that that was really interesting. And she spoke a lot as well around, like, sanitization of, like, language around these topics, so. [00:02:50] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Gotta make the whites feel more comfortable. [00:02:53] Speaker B: Yeah, it honestly. So it was super inspiring. So she's called Chantelle Lunt, and I think she's also. She's also, like, an activist. And I think she does some stuff with politics. I'm definitely not giving her the justice she requires. Yeah, it was, like, so engrossing, though. She was basically, like, just telling you, like, stories wow. History. And then she would, like, engage, you know, in talking with us. But it was mostly just her just telling us about the history. And it was so interesting. [00:03:28] Speaker A: It's interesting how you said it, like, cycles back and it never has gone away because that's kind of what we'll talk about a little bit in this as well. So it all seems to kind of just, like, link in. There's always backlash to people making steps forward. [00:03:43] Speaker B: So many similarities, even if you think about so, like, the. Again, like, sanitization of, like, language, like, minimizing, like, experiences, like, not being seen, like, not being heard about, like, specific needs. She spoke quite a. Spoke a little bit around, like, the, I don't know, stereotype, is it stereotype Anyway, false belief that, like, black people don't feel pain or as much pain. [00:04:12] Speaker A: RFK Jr just said that black people in his Senate hearing that got him confirmed into Senate said that. Said that black people shouldn't have the same vaccine schedule as white people. Like, this is the level of stupidity we're dealing with. Yeah, yeah. It's ridiculous. [00:04:28] Speaker B: But you would have loved it because near the beginning, she just put a huge picture of Donald Trump up on the screen, and there were, like, four different screens, like, all around the room. So Donald Trump was just like, everywhere. [00:04:40] Speaker A: Ew, grand. [00:04:42] Speaker B: But then she was, like, saying. She was basically saying, like, why is this. Why is this a problem? And just kind of talking about. Yeah, yeah, cool DEI stuff in, like, America and how it is probably gonna come over here. [00:05:00] Speaker A: That's what I'm worried about. Yeah. [00:05:02] Speaker B: What did she say? She said, like, when America sneezes, that England catches a cold or something. [00:05:11] Speaker A: That's a good way of framing it. [00:05:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:13] Speaker A: It's like. No, yeah, I know. That's what I'm really worried about. Like, Elon's trying to align himself with whatchamacallit, farage. Trump has his eyes on the nhs. It's like, it's really scary. And so sometimes I think, like, okay, rather than just, like, go on and on about what's happening in America, maybe I should turn my sights to this, maybe stopping that stuff happening here. Because, yeah, it could very easily. There's enough people that think that way that it's. [00:05:45] Speaker B: I think. [00:05:46] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:05:47] Speaker B: And again, she was saying how we're so, like, with the almost the forest, right, that we've been in, like, in ages. And, yeah, it is scary. [00:05:55] Speaker A: There are some serious far right move. I mean, thankfully, your far right is our left, so you're still, like, have some basic protections, but it could move very quickly. So, yeah. On that note, welcome to the but why Podcast, where we explore the human experience through a psychological lens by asking, but why? I'm Dr. Kristen. [00:06:18] Speaker B: And I'm Dr. Laura. And today we are exploring how advancements for women have repeatedly triggered efforts to hold them back. [00:06:30] Speaker A: Yep. AKA the story of women. Two steps forward, one step back. [00:06:36] Speaker B: Sounds tiring. [00:06:38] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sums up life. How are you doing, Laura? On that note? [00:06:45] Speaker B: On that note, feeling tired and ill and I've got really red. And now I've got this little, like, thing on my nose as well. [00:06:52] Speaker A: Anyhooses, you've been sick for almost a week now. You're probably sick of it. [00:06:57] Speaker B: I am a little bit. But hey, ho, it's fine. I learned a poem. Oh, shall I tell you the poem. [00:07:06] Speaker A: That I love to hear you read poetry to me. [00:07:08] Speaker B: Okay. So I was like, I'm gonna memorize this poem. It's a very short poem, by the way. And because I got in that new pin. [00:07:16] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:07:18] Speaker B: So I got this. I've also found that on Vinted, there are a lot of very good pins. If anybody is after a good, good pin. There are a lot of, like, Ghibli pins on there, which I thought was great. But anyway, so I got a Lord of the Rings pin. The pin is. I don't have it on me right now, but it's basically like a square. And it's like got a nice shirey, sort of fieldy tree y background. And then it's got little silhouettes. I can never say that word. Silhouettes of Gandalf and Frodo, like, walking. And then it says on it, the road goes ever on and on. And I was like, right, if I'm gonna wear this pin, I need to know this poem. So I spent. When was it, like my Monday, like, memorizing this poem because I was ill as well. So I was like, I can't really, like, do much real work, so I'll memorize this poem. And then I looked into the poem and I realized that there are like three or four different versions of the poem. So then I had to decide which one I wanted to learn because there's one. I think it originally was in the Hobbit. But then I was like, you know what? I think I want to know the Lord of the Rings one. And there's like two different versions in Lord of the Rings, one which Bilbo says and one which Frodo says. But I learned. Well, they're kind of the same. I'll Tell you the one that Bilbo says. [00:08:36] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. [00:08:37] Speaker B: You ready for my like poetry recitation? I'm excited. That's not the right word. That's like resuscitating somebody. Well, how would you say recitation? [00:08:48] Speaker A: I don't know. [00:08:49] Speaker B: I'm just reciting. [00:08:50] Speaker A: I'm just hoping this becomes like a poetry slam. [00:08:54] Speaker B: Oh, no, not that intense. I probably forget it halfway. Okay, I'm just gonna start, see if I remember. So you've got to think as I'm read, as I'm saying this. [00:09:04] Speaker A: Oh, you've got your mindfulness meditation voice. [00:09:08] Speaker B: Reading it off, by the way. This is my general memory. But we've got to picture the Shire. We are in Lord of the Rings. And then it kind of makes more sense. Okay. So this goes the road goes ever on and on down from the door where it began now far ahead the road has gone and I must follow if I can Pursuing it with eager feet until it joins some larger way where many paths and errands meet and whither then I cannot say. [00:09:38] Speaker A: Oh, I love that. That's really nice. And I feel inspired. [00:09:42] Speaker B: So. Inspired by the poetry. [00:09:44] Speaker A: I love it. I don't have any poems for you though. [00:09:48] Speaker B: That is quite okay. [00:09:50] Speaker A: I just feel like if I read out poetry it will still just feel like an attack. [00:09:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:57] Speaker A: Still angry. [00:09:58] Speaker B: But they can be the best poems, right? When it sounds like you are being attacked. [00:10:04] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. [00:10:05] Speaker B: What I thought was fun though about learning this poem was that like I, on the first day I was like trying to learn it. I was like, I cannot remember this. And then it's so amazing when you then sleep, you consolidate the information into your long term memory and then suddenly you're like, whoa, I know it all. I think that's cool. [00:10:26] Speaker A: Yeah. I've never actually looked into the research on that because I know that's a thing. Right. But I've never actually explored it. You know how you're supposed to like study the day before a test and that kind of stuff? [00:10:37] Speaker B: Yeah, but they always say to you you should always sleep over. Staying up all night and revising for something. You should always go to sleep because it will help you to consolidate the information. [00:10:50] Speaker A: Interesting. Yeah. Those synapses, neural synapses firing off and reforming while you sleep. [00:10:57] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. That's happening. [00:10:59] Speaker A: That's when your brain does all of its repairing too, is when you get your deep sleep. [00:11:03] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. [00:11:05] Speaker A: Which is so important to get that deep sleep. Which is, according to my new Oura ring, not something I do very well. [00:11:11] Speaker B: Oh, no. So have you got the. The proper size now? [00:11:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I've got it. I've been wearing it for two nights. [00:11:17] Speaker B: Okay, cool. [00:11:18] Speaker A: And the thing is, it said both days that I'm at optimal level, like 86 or 89. And then I'm just like, I don't feel that way. I feel really tired. I don't understand. Am I just wrong or is it just still. It's only been two days. It takes, what, a couple weeks to try and get to know your rhythm. [00:11:37] Speaker B: Yeah. Maybe give it a bit of time. Because I think also stress goes into that. So then when it. When you go on to the. I don't know, I think it's like the readiness score or something. Like, daytime stress goes into that. So even if it says you've, like, slept really well, like, your. Your daytime stress score might be, like, really low or high, however you want to see it. So I feel like that can come into it. But I do agree, like, some days I'm like, it says I've slept really well, but I swear I woke up, like, five times in the night. [00:12:08] Speaker A: That was me last night. I was like, I remember being awake multiple times. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:12:14] Speaker B: But sometimes it, like, makes me feel a bit better. And it's like, actually, it's not too bad if I do wake up. It's more like, am I getting back to sleep again? You know? [00:12:24] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited to see what perspectives it gives me on that kind of stuff because obviously you're so unaware, especially, like the alexithymia thing. Half the time I have no clue what's going on inside my body, so I'm pretty excited. [00:12:36] Speaker B: Yeah. I hope you like it. Sometimes, though, I get annoyed when I'm like, I'm so stressed. And then my aura app is like, you've had a really restoring day. And I'm like, no, I have not. Like, it has not been restorative at all. [00:12:50] Speaker A: But they should be able to, like, ask you, like, does this reflect your experience? Experience, yes or no. And integrate that into the data. But yeah. Oh, well, I'll tell them totally. [00:13:01] Speaker B: Yeah. Because I wonder as well, like, sometimes you can have it where you might experience that. That stressful, I don't know, event experience or whatever. But then your body might not feel it until sometime after. So I wonder if that in some way reflects. But on the app, you can add, like, tags. So even if it says you're not stressed, you can add, like, stressed or, I don't know, sad or something. And then it will try and, like, pick up trends. [00:13:28] Speaker A: Oh, okay. Interesting. Okay, well, anyone who wants an OURA ring or is considering getting one, I will keep you updated on my progress because especially us. We're very data driven, so it's fun to explore that kind of stuff. [00:13:43] Speaker B: Totally. We can, like, start episodes by comparing our aura data for the day. [00:13:47] Speaker A: Oh, no. Yeah, sure. Let's do it. It'll be kind of fun. [00:13:50] Speaker B: Am I more ready than you? How ready are you? [00:13:54] Speaker A: What is your readiness right now? How ready? [00:13:56] Speaker B: My readiness is 76 and it says it's good, but my resting heart rate is very bad. And my age. Well, it says it's 65 and it's red, so. [00:14:10] Speaker A: My readiness is 89. [00:14:12] Speaker B: Oh, you are more ready than me. [00:14:14] Speaker A: I feel like that's not right at all because I just literally took a vitamin C booster, like, shot thing before this, so I had energy anyways. Oh, did you see. Are you a musical fan at all? [00:14:27] Speaker B: Some musicals I am a fan of. [00:14:30] Speaker A: Right, okay. Do you like Les Mis? [00:14:33] Speaker B: Yes, I do. [00:14:35] Speaker A: And you know, like, the general background of Les Mis. Right. The French Revolution and all that kind of stuff. [00:14:40] Speaker B: I've seen it in the theater a long time ago, and I have watched the film. That's my knowledge. [00:14:46] Speaker A: Great. So did you see at the Governor's Ball, which is at the White House, they asked, like, a bunch of military. The military, like, choir or whatever to sing for them. And they sang a song of angry men from Les Mis, which is literally toppling a corrupt government. I was so happy. [00:15:06] Speaker B: Who were the people that were singing in this story? [00:15:08] Speaker A: It was like, the. One of the military choirs. So, like, actual military people singing it to the White House at the Governor's Wall. And like, my favorite thing about it is they. They were like, yeah, this is so great. Because they were too freaking dumb to. [00:15:23] Speaker B: Realize they had no idea what was going on. I don't think they cheered. [00:15:28] Speaker A: Yeah, they were cheering like, they're like, well done. Thank you for singing to me. Yes. Protest through art. My protest is through yelling, but that's fine. [00:15:37] Speaker B: Is it a protest if they don't even realize that they're being protested against? [00:15:42] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, you can't really control people's perceptions of your protest. Not our fault. They're dumb. [00:15:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:49] Speaker A: They will know because it's gone viral on the Internet. [00:15:51] Speaker B: That is true. [00:15:53] Speaker A: So it'll be after when they look. [00:15:54] Speaker B: Even dumber, like a. Like a sneak attack almost. [00:15:57] Speaker A: Yeah, a sneak protest. [00:15:59] Speaker B: Yeah, sneak protest. [00:16:01] Speaker A: And the funny thing is, though, it's one of the most well known revolution songs on at least in the Western world. And they probably went into it going, like, they're gonna know. They're gonna know exactly what's happening. We're gonna get thrown out. Yeah, we're gonna get thrown out. Or they're gonna, like, yell. At least they're gonna know what's happening. And they're just. They must have been like, nothing. Nothing's happening. Do they not know? Oh, my gosh. Okay, well, I suppose I should kick us off into our topic, because otherwise we could talk forever, and we have a lot to cover. This reminds me of when I was lecturing on Monday this week. Was that. What is today Wednesday? Yeah, a couple days ago. [00:16:45] Speaker B: I do know it was only Wednesday. How was that? [00:16:49] Speaker A: But I did a. The mindfulness act lecture, and I just had so much to fit in. And I said, sorry, guys, I feel like I'm sprint talking at you guys. And like, I just combined so much act and mindfulness is, as you guys kind of probably know. Laura is like. It's like, right up there with socioecological model. Laura's, like, expertise and favorite thing. So Laura sent me loads of helpful stuff for developing this lecture, but then I also, like, had stuff from another lecture, and I was like, here you go. Because they didn't just want me to act. They wanted me to do, like, act and mindfulness approaches, like, MBCT and stuff. I'm like, how am I supposed to cover this in two hours? [00:17:31] Speaker B: It's too much. You can't do all of it. [00:17:33] Speaker A: Yeah. So they were level. [00:17:35] Speaker B: What level students were they? [00:17:36] Speaker A: Masters? [00:17:37] Speaker B: Master's students. [00:17:39] Speaker A: Anyway, I guess what I mean to say is I might be speed talking at you. That is fine. [00:17:46] Speaker B: I could now feel like I want to, like, talk about act and mindfulness, but I realize that is not the point of. That's not the point. So we're gonna. No, no, don't go there. [00:17:54] Speaker A: No, Lauren, No. Well, funny point. You want to go on a mindfulness tangent. Most of this is not very mindful. So, you know, there you go. [00:18:04] Speaker B: Let's all try and be mindful as we take in this horrific information. [00:18:08] Speaker A: Let's be very present with the horrific information. [00:18:10] Speaker B: Let us be. Yes. [00:18:12] Speaker A: So we've had. How do I frame this? We've had a number of comments on the Internet about. Do you want to leave your microphone on? Because it's really. It distracts me more when you turn it off. Sorry. [00:18:28] Speaker B: I feel like I'm going to be sniffing those, like. [00:18:30] Speaker A: No, it blocks it out. I can ask it to block it out. That's fine. Yeah. [00:18:34] Speaker B: Okay. Even if I cough. [00:18:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, I can ask it so to do background noise or, like, block out your mic when those noise hasn't happened. [00:18:44] Speaker B: I'm gonna be making loads of noises. [00:18:46] Speaker A: That's fine. Every time you turn off your mic, the normal sizzle in the background, it's not really a sizzle, but I can just hear a difference. [00:18:54] Speaker B: I know what you're saying. [00:18:55] Speaker A: It's just like, nothing. And I'm like, can you hear what I'm saying more? It's really distracting. [00:19:03] Speaker B: Or I'll be like, I need a sneeze break. [00:19:05] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Quick sneeze break. [00:19:07] Speaker B: Do, do, do, do. Yeah. [00:19:09] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. So we are going to talk about how basically every two steps women take forward, we end up taking at least one take step back because of the backlash that happens. And a few comments online, like, women have 90% more rights than men now. And all that kind of stuff online just like, dumb stuff made me go, we need to talk about this. We've talked a little bit about sexism, stuff like that, but I think just a quick little history into maybe the past 125 to 28 years specifically so. Or more actually now that I'm looking at this, but would be. Would be useful. And so, yeah, it's just like a very brief thing. If there's anything on here that you're like, oh, I'd like to learn more about that. You, Laura, or to the listeners, let us know and we'll cover things in more detail. So I'm going to start in the late 1800s, the 1880s, and with something that I find quite interesting called Bicycle Face. And it's something I wrote about in Amy and Jen's book that we covered last podcast, their women's stories book. And it's not the first thing, but it's like one of the more recent ones that's around women's voting. Like we did the witch trial episodes, which talked about propaganda and manipulating women and socializing women into certain roles. And when they extend out of those roles, they are punished, either socially, physically, mentally, and things like that. So essentially in that late 19th century, in the late 1800s, women started gaining a lot more independence. And so that the suffrage moment movement was gaining a lot in the West. So think like uk, the usa, Australia, women were starting to go to university. And along that time, bicycles had become really popular ways of getting about. And think of it this way. So now women were able to purchase a bicycle and go wherever they want instead of doing, like a horse and carriage. That's usually. You have a. Like a driver and you're usually with a male person who's watching over what you're doing. It's for safety and heavy quotes, but also to monitor what you're doing. You're wearing your dresses and your gloves, you're getting into your carriage, you're going to your T and you're going home. All quite tracked. Whereas when the bicycle started happening, women were like, oh, we can just go. Right. And so that led to more and more women going to protest and protest for voting. You know, the suffragette movement just like exploded as a result of cycles. And that also led to a lot of women preferring trousers over dresses and things like that. And so women were gaining so much progress just from this vehicle to get out and about outside of their kind of just normal communities. It's actually like a really good way of, you know, we talked about sharing women's stories, so it was a vehicle for women from other areas being able to meet and share each other's stories with one another. Yeah. So it's just like, you know, what we talked about in the witches episode is once women start congregating together, people start to get a little uncomfortable. Right. [00:22:36] Speaker B: A little bit suspicious. [00:22:38] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, are you a witch or are. [00:22:42] Speaker B: You really riding a bike? [00:22:45] Speaker A: So basically this craze, which is kind of like what it was kind of called at the time, gave women this kind of new mobility, new freedom to travel more freely without male chaperones. This seems like something that's just like, oh, that happened. That's quite cool. No, crazy backlash. Crazy, crazy backlash. I know. So before I move on to the backlash, Laura, do you have any thoughts, opinions or questions? [00:23:15] Speaker B: Do I. I was think, okay, most of the time as you were talking, I was thinking about my grandma, actually. So she. She passed away about 10 years ago. But I was trying to think about where she would fall into in this time, because she was. [00:23:32] Speaker A: How old was she? [00:23:34] Speaker B: She was about, I think she was around 92, 94ish when. [00:23:39] Speaker A: Okay. [00:23:40] Speaker B: She. She died. [00:23:41] Speaker A: So she might fit into being born around the next stage that we cover, which is like the twenties. [00:23:48] Speaker B: Okay. Because she absolutely loved her bike. So she cycled everywhere. So it made me think of her. And then like, wondering more about the. Again, like, this history behind that. And I was thinking, I wonder if this ever kind of impacted her. But that's kind of what I was thinking about. But also just the like, because sometimes I'll talk to students about this when we're introducing, like, sexism in sport and start with exploring, like, bicycle face. Right. And it. You. You almost feel silly talking about it because people are like, what? So they started riding bikes, and it is exactly as you said. Like, seems like something that is so basic and such a positive thing, but actually it was like, whoa, like, what's going on? We need to, like, stop this from happening. So it's very shocking. I think, in that sense it is. [00:24:45] Speaker A: Because it wasn't like they were fine for women to go on bicycles until they kind of put two and two together that, oh, they're actually mobilizing as a result of this freedom. Right. And so that makes it almost more frustrating. And they were like, oh, are women getting pleasure from these bikes? This is a problem. [00:25:07] Speaker B: Oh, my God. [00:25:08] Speaker A: So, like, the backlash, what bicycle phase is, is basically there was a collaborative effort from the media and doctors to probably. [00:25:20] Speaker B: Mostly male doctors. [00:25:21] Speaker A: Yeah. What do you mean probably? It's the 1900s early. [00:25:26] Speaker B: Sorry, guys. Yeah, I'm. What am I doing? I'm, like, censoring my language. [00:25:33] Speaker A: Yeah, sorry, sorry. [00:25:36] Speaker B: They were all men. [00:25:39] Speaker A: Not all men, Laura, but mostly, actually, yes, they were. And so basically, they came up with this disease in heavy quotes called bicycle face. They said that it would. Because obviously, women really only care about what they look like. That's where your real value is. So it's going to make your face look crazy, basically. It's going to. The physical exertion would create facial distortions. And they painted pictures in the media of women with, like, melting faces and, like, all this crazy stuff. And they also said, because, well, okay, well, if you're not pretty, well, at least you can give some babies to us. Right. And so they also said, like, it's going to harm the female reproductive organs and cause, like, infertility or hysteria. My favorite, you know, kind of fake thing. [00:26:29] Speaker B: Classic. [00:26:30] Speaker A: Yeah. And the kind of women wearing trousers and stuff like that caused a lot of controversy, like, lots of ridicule. Like, women are dressing like men. It's just crazy. You know what I mean? So this was all an attempt to get women to kind of go back to their traditional ways of traveling and dressing. They wanted to reinforce these gender norms that women were just too. Too fragile to engage in physical activity. And they're places in the home where they're not going to get too overexerted. And this is something we're going to do an episode on women's. Kind of the progression of women's sport, because there is a relation to this. Often sport is used as a vehicle to push them behind when there has been progress. So we will link to that. But. And again, it's like that idea of policing women's bodies and their behavior. So the reaction to the trousers reinforce that idea that even those minor deviations from femininity were just, like, not acceptable. And we can tie that into that benevolent and hostile sexism thing that we talked about. I think episode two, even so, you can just see those things winding themselves around. So that's bicycle faith. And that's just a very minor thing. Like, women like riding bikes and it helps progress the suffragette. Suffragette movement. And they wore pants. And people were like, nope, can't have that. Absolutely not. Doctors and media, let's do a propaganda. [00:27:59] Speaker B: Yeah. And, like. And the list that they put out. So the list of, like, rules or something, like, for if women are riding bikes. The list is, like, so long and is actually, like, quite funny because it is just so ridiculous, the things that they say in there. Around. Yeah. What, like, cycling is gonna do to women and what they should and should not do. [00:28:23] Speaker A: It's almost like that list almost pretends like there's a choice in it. Right. So it's pretending to give that autonomy, like, oh, I can do it as long as I follow this list. But really the list is too difficult to even engage in, so no one's going to do it. It's almost like voting rights. In some places, they know what they're doing when they develop this kind of stuff. [00:28:43] Speaker B: It's crazy. Like, honestly, people listening, Google this list because you will realize how bizarre it is. [00:28:51] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I kind of want to Google it now, but I feel like I could. I know a tangent forever. [00:28:58] Speaker B: Should we just, like, read some funny ones out? Like, it's hard, I think, to, like, almost because you want to take this stuff seriously and be like, this is absolutely awful. But then the list is just so funny. It's like. [00:29:13] Speaker A: It's, like, funny that it was so serious at the time. And. Well, yeah. [00:29:18] Speaker B: Oh, huge list of rules. Okay, so don't be a fright. That's one of them. How do you think one. How does one not be a fright? [00:29:27] Speaker A: I've never managed to do that. I'm always a fright, constantly. [00:29:31] Speaker B: Oh, wait, don't forget your tool bag. Okay. Don't forget it. Don't. Don't boast of your long rides. [00:29:40] Speaker A: Oh, well, a woman can never be boastful, especially if she's riding for a long time. [00:29:45] Speaker B: Okay. Don't refuse assistance up a hill. Love that. [00:29:50] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. I mean, fair, but okay. [00:29:54] Speaker B: This one's good. Don't chew gum, Exercise your jaws in private. [00:29:59] Speaker A: I don't even know what to say about that. [00:30:04] Speaker B: Oh, okay, last one. Don't discuss bloomers with every man. You know. [00:30:10] Speaker A: I'll try not to. Bloomers means trousers. Yeah. For anyone who doesn't have like very specific 19th century knowledge. Bloomers these trousers. I'll try. Like. I love talking about this. Bloomers with men. That's like the first thing I'm like. Gotta tell you about these new bloomers I got. [00:30:28] Speaker B: Yep. That's the main thing. [00:30:30] Speaker A: Oh, God. [00:30:31] Speaker B: But yeah, there's some examples of the fabulous list that women were provided with. [00:30:37] Speaker A: Lovely, lovely. Well, I'll try not to be a fright, but I can't promise anything. [00:30:43] Speaker B: Please, please tell the witches, don't be afraid. [00:30:46] Speaker A: Don't be afraid. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. We could probably link so much of this. That's the issue. So the next two I'm gonna kind of link in together and kind of go through both at the same time because they're quite linked. And I'll probably focus on more like certain areas more than others. And these two I'll link together because the next one is a biggie. So two and three. So two is women's suffrage and the anti suffragette movement. So historical context. As women had been fighting for voting rights for decades, like from bicycle face onwards. And loads of major suffrage suffrage organizations formed in the US and Europe in the late 19th century, early 20th, the movements made some slow gains. So New Zealand. Zealand granted women the right to vote in 1980 or 18. Sorry, 1893. Australia in 1902, Finland 1906 and the UK partial voting rights in 1918. So US isn't quite there yet. And what we're talking about. And so there was a lot of opposition to women's suffrage by women. This anti suffrage movement was largely run by women. So internalized misogyny like crazy. And they were arguing that only educated people can vote. So women shouldn't be allowed to vote because they're too uneducated in their places, as in the home. But women weren't allowed largely to go to school. So that was one major thing. They led major, major attacks against suffragettes. Okay. And from there. [00:32:31] Speaker B: Yeah, so women were attacking suffragettes. Wow. [00:32:34] Speaker A: It was men too. But the. They pretty much tried for the most part to use the tool of women against women. Feeling like it might have more validity coming from women to say, you should be in the home. That's a tool that's used throughout this whole process. Yeah. [00:32:49] Speaker B: It's interesting how That I think even feeds so much into our society and like cultures today with like pitting women against women. And you know, it's like almost still feels like something we need to remind each other about to like celebrate other women rather than seeing each other as threats, you know. [00:33:07] Speaker A: Yes, well, I mean it's, it's in group 101, it's pit, pit the out group against each other and however way you can and that'll just solidify your own power. You don't even have to do that much work, you know. And so alongside this part of the attack was propaganda, of course. So suffragettes were portrayed as ugly and unfeminine. I link this a lot back to the witch trials when they, you know, portray witches as like have like warts all over their face or you know, just like as the old hag in heavy quotes, things like that. So political cartoons were mocking suffragettes as man hating spinsters. So they really were trying to discourage women from joining the movement by saying like if you become a suffragette and nowadays it's feminist, you're going to become too ugly to find a husband. Which obviously what do we all want in life, it is a husband. And the idea was, okay, it's politically irresponsible to let women vote. So obviously women had no rights to vote in the countries they were living in until about 100 to 120 years ago. Meaning that most laws are not designed for them. And even after gaining the right to vote, honestly like even the people that were allowed to vote legally still faced a lot of disenfranchisement. So we had that opposition to women's voting through pretty much women by arguing that their own gender was too dumb and uneducated to vote. And that was supported by the male, the man run propaganda machine. He looks so mad. [00:34:54] Speaker B: Can you imagine saying that like, nope, we women, we are not smart enough to vote. Don't let us do it. Can you imagine that? [00:35:01] Speaker A: It's Yeah, I would not like to have a say in my own fate. It's just when people are so socialized that something is the way it is. I mean we see it all the, all over the place now. It's really, it can lead to that cognitive dissonance and that cognitive dissonance can get quite uncomfortable and they'll take that out on the other person. It's probably a lot of jealousy of the freedom these women were experiencing even. Yeah. So after that, slightly after women in America got the right to vote in 1920 and this was just after World War I, some women went to work while the men went off to war. And so after World War I and women getting these rights to vote, the flapper movement happened. And so that's that kind of like 1920-1930 kind of era. And so that flapper movement kind of represented that rejection of traditional feminine roles. So women like chopped off their hair, they wore less restrict restrictive clothing, more, God, I can't talk right now, more revealing clothing, they drank in public, they kind of were a bit more sexually free. And just something that I want to note real quick is this is a really quick description of all these events. And we don't want to erase intersectional approaches and black feminism because they arguably have done a lot more work than white feminism and has roots back to like at least the 1800s. So I just want to note that the kind of like the experience of the flapper movement and women's kind of like short lived, really 10 years experiences of some greater freedoms were really, really, really highly dependent on your race and privilege more broadly. So maybe just apply that point throughout this whole discussion is, you know, there is an intersectional effect on your experience as a woman. And a lot of what we're going to talk about and like next we're going to talk about the traditional 50s housewives. You know, that was obviously propaganda, propagandized to be very white. And a lot of. Because the civil rights movement hadn't happened yet, a lot of black women, that wasn't even an option. So just wanted to chuck that in there because a lot of really important and deep work was done. But I'm not getting too specific into any one person's work. I'm just kind of doing an outline. So I just wanted to note that anyway, the backlash of this broader flasher movement was like a kind of. [00:37:41] Speaker B: Did you say flasher? I thought you said flasher? The flasher movement. [00:37:47] Speaker A: I think you might have said flasher. Yeah, it's just that movement of women going around flashing people. [00:37:52] Speaker B: Yes, I was thinking. [00:37:56] Speaker A: Yes, I meant flapper. I think there was a lot of backlash to that. So it kind of took the stage as more of like a moral panic than anything. Similar almost to the voting rights backlash. So religious and conservative groups, that's men and women, attacked flappers or flashers, probably even more so for rejecting those traditional gender roles. They were again portrayed as reckless and immoral people, like, how dare you. Prohibition happened very soon after this moral degradation of the flappers. And there was just like this pressure to go back to that domestic life. It's not as intense as the next stage for after World War II, but it's just like a taste of what we're about to get of like, workplace exclusion. Men come back from the war, women are being immoral by existing stuff like that. [00:38:55] Speaker B: I was just to clarify. So would you say that this kind of the flapper movement was like, empowering women? This was something that was kind of allowing them to. Yeah. Move away from those gender norms and for themselves. [00:39:13] Speaker A: Yeah, because like, they literally. The flapper style was short, chopped off hair, it was revealing clothing, it was heels. It was all about dancing in ways that were considered, like, very inappropriate. Showing some leg. [00:39:28] Speaker B: You know what I'm thinking about? I'm like. I don't know if I'm gonna say this properly, but for those of you who have seen the Handmaid's Tale. [00:39:37] Speaker A: Right. [00:39:38] Speaker B: So you know, when they go out of the, like the. The city and the men, like, take all, like, women, like, to these like, flappers. They're like flapper bars, really, like, aren't they? I don't know if that's the right term, but all of the women are like made to dress up in this kind of flapper sort of style. And it almost makes me feel like that is put in there because it's almost like taking away that. If this is representing freedom of women, then that's almost like, I guess, the patriarchy then taking that movement and actually making it something that is for them rather than for women. [00:40:16] Speaker A: Yeah, that's so true. I mean, I'm sure in this flapper movement there was an element of like, just wanting to show off the woman that was there. There's still that like, oh, you gotta have woman on your arm, blah, blah. But there was that choice by women to dress edgy and all that kind of stuff. Whereas, like you say in the Handmaid's Tale that autonomy is just gone. They don't have any choice. So that's such a cool. Interesting. I wonder if Margaret Atwood thought about. I wouldn't be surprised because she took all of her stuff from actual stuff that has happened in the past. So I wonder. That's a really interesting point. So the reason I kind of rushed through that is this next one. This is. This is like more well known, but also like crazy. So as we know, During World War II, loads and loads of men went to war because women weren't allowed to be in war and women entered the workforce en masse. Think like the Rosie, Rosie the Riveter vibes, like, we can do it with The. [00:41:14] Speaker B: Oh, right, I see. Yes. [00:41:15] Speaker A: Oh, you know, like. You know what I mean? [00:41:17] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:41:18] Speaker A: I think it was like in the, like. Yeah, the headband and the. The bicep. Yes, exactly, exactly. I think the. I think like, 6 million women, I think in the U.S. i would need to clarify, went to work. Six million women went from being in the household to working in, like, corporate and industrial jobs, which is just like a very quick turnaround from doing domestic labor to this. They started to enjoy it. It proved that they were very capable of doing it for years on end. It opened up other jobs. So you started seeing like, more housekeeping jobs and things like that because women were going into work. And it just kind of changed the job market a little bit. And women just experienced as well, like a bit of things, freedom without loads of men around all the time, oppressing them and controlling their behaviors. And so it was just like a period of time during, like a really horrific time in life where. Which is just like, it sucks. That took such a horrific thing for women to kind of progress a little bit. However, did they really progress, because the GI Bill in the US so in 1944, provide loads of benefits to the returning soldiers, which, you know what, that's great. You need to know that you can have a job to come back to. But it was like, okay, women, get out of our jobs now. Media and government messaging after the war encouraged women to go back to their home and focus on the family, despite the media beforehand saying, women, you got to get in there. Go support the country by getting to work. I think more women went back to the home, lost their jobs after this, then had gone into it for this, if that makes sense. So there had been more women working before this kind Of World War II mass amount of women going in than after. [00:43:23] Speaker B: So they're like, one step forward, two step back. Things very much happening here. [00:43:29] Speaker A: Exactly. Because after World War I, there was some backlash and there was some like, get back into the kitchen. But it wasn't like, crazy crazy. This backlash was actually like, no, we can't tolerate this as a society. It was coming from the government, it was coming from the general media. So, like, if you're looking at the media, propaganda has a massive role in all of this. From the witch trials to Bicycle face to the 50s Housewife. So TV. TV shows kind of like, you know, Leave it to Beaver, Father Knows Best, that just really idealized that stay at home motherhood vibe. [00:44:04] Speaker B: I have never heard of any of those TV shows. [00:44:06] Speaker A: Oh, no, I don't know any of your British, like, 50s, like TV shows. [00:44:12] Speaker B: I don't know either. I'll have to look at it. [00:44:14] Speaker A: Yeah. I wouldn't know them off the top of my head. The craziest part about this out. So there's this propaganda that if you don't fit in to this, then you're not worth anything. Right. Did you. Have you ever seen that? Like, was it a Vogue thing? Vogue diet from like 1955 or something. And it was like the women's diet, like, that they should be doing. [00:44:35] Speaker B: Yes. There was something about. There's something strange about an egg, but I can't remember. [00:44:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:40] Speaker B: I don't know what it was. [00:44:42] Speaker A: So it's like for breakfast you have a glass of. I think it's Pinot Grigio and an egg, like one hard boiled egg. And then for lunch I think you have a glass of Pinot Grigio and maybe part of a sirloin steak or nothing. And then for dinner you have either the full steak or the rest of your steak and the last of the bottle of wine, which is like two glasses of wine. [00:45:07] Speaker B: Perfect. [00:45:08] Speaker A: Yeah. And they're like, they're like, this will make you skinny. Like, oh, my God. That's another big thing that I've been looking into a lot recently is I read somewhere earlier this year that basically said every time there is a movement of women gaining progress, fashion starts centering around women's thinness instead of bodies positivity. So if you look around, say that. [00:45:33] Speaker B: Say that again. When. When what? [00:45:35] Speaker A: When women start demonstrating some very obvious progress, some bigger leaps forward, fashion and beauty starts to center around thinness. So if you think about like 2, 2000 and tens before the MeToo movement, fashion and beauty was very Kardashian centric, very curvy. And that's when the body positivity movement started as well. [00:46:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:01] Speaker A: Now fashion is very Ozempic. Even the Kardashians are all like on that. And everyone's. Even who already was very skinny is talking about how skinny they are and just look like waves. And actually this makes me think, because that was a 50s thing too. Like, okay, well, you've been doing these industrial jobs, gaining all these muscles. Now we want you to have a bottle of wine and a steak on one egg all day and you have to be a stick. And. Yeah, there's a lot of body shaming as well in that. In the 50s. [00:46:31] Speaker B: Yeah. And why do you think that we're kind of moving back to that sort of like thinness as like beauty? [00:46:40] Speaker A: Well, it also happened in the 90s with the Kate Moss kind of stuff as well. Right after. What would I call it, like, the backlash against second wave feminism, really, right before we enter the third wave feminism. It's a backlash against the kind of Roe v. Wade and all these women's rights that were gained in 1980s. The 90s was all thinness. So I haven't, like, properly researched it, but it's definitely a trend. [00:47:08] Speaker B: That's so interesting. So, like, a backlash, again, against this, like, freedom or this. I guess women taking back freedom over their bodies is then. I don't know. I don't know what it is that's kind of making it happen, but it is like putting. Getting put back in that box. Innocence. [00:47:29] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, it's just an exertion of control, because who. I don't even know if it's conscious. I wouldn't be surprised if it is. But it's. It's just like, well, what else are women's bodies for if not to be looked at and consumed or, you know, provide labor, whether that's domestic or child care, childbirth, things like that. And that's just like, a very patriarchal idea. So that just made me kind of think of that. So like a kind of funny story, like, ooh, Vogue printed this, but then like, oh, wait, yeah, leave it to me. Sorry, guys. I'm gonna have a bowl of Mac and cheese out after this. [00:48:13] Speaker B: So I'm excited. [00:48:14] Speaker A: I'm excited. [00:48:15] Speaker B: I have a chocolate croissant, so I might. [00:48:18] Speaker A: Now, would Amy call it a chocolate croissant? That's the question. [00:48:21] Speaker B: Oh, no, sorry, it's. No, no, it is. It is a pas au chocolat. Yeah. [00:48:28] Speaker A: Amy has very strong opinions about what chocolate croissant is. [00:48:32] Speaker B: Yeah. Sorry. [00:48:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Now I'm hungry. This happens twice two episodes in a row now. And so one of the really many really sad things that happened to these women that were forced back into these domestic labor jobs is they've just gone from working, like, having more meaning and fulfillment to basically childcare. But a lot of them had kids, and the kids were already in school and their husbands were working in the cities, like, what do you do all day? Like, you know, they were all just so unhappy. There's a mental health crisis so unfulfilled. And this started the medicalization of women's happiness that we still see today in misdiagnosing women with, like, mood disorders, when actually they might be neurodivergent or have actual trauma they need to get through and stuff like that. So this kind of Housewife dissatisfaction was treated as a medical problem, not as an issue that should be explored more. So, like, you are medically wrong if you don't want to be a wife and a mother, only, like, it's that. And so what they did is they started prescribing Mother's Little Helper, which is essentially like a tranquilizer. And over a third. Yeah, yeah. And there were a lot of lobotomies as well. And over a third of American women housewives. American housewives, I should say not. Women were on these drugs, and so they were just, like, zonked out in their house with their bottle of Pinot Grigio and their steak all day, their single egg that they were allowed to make. [00:50:15] Speaker B: Wow. [00:50:15] Speaker A: These women were just like, their mental health plummeted. No one cared. They would send them to. This is where a lot of the problems in psychology come from. A lot of it started when these, like, zonked out women were going. And they would infantilize them and treat their problems like they weren't real. And it was just crazy. And it's really sad. And then in the 60s, you start to see, like, this change a little bit. The kind of three love movement. You see people starting to almost like what happened in the 20s with the flapper movement. But this is concerts and music and flare jeans. And you see a lot more. Once that starts happening and there's more freedom, women start fighting for more rights. So in the 60s and 17, sixteens and 70eens, the 60s and 70s, we had some major victories. So we had in the states that we had Roe v. Wade, which is protection for, like, freedom of choice for your body. We had Title nine, which protects women in sports. We had the push for the Equal Rights Amendment, which was introduced in the 20s, and it's still not ratified today. It's crazy. And so a lot of women also entered the workforce, which kind of challenged those traditional gender roles that we can't be in there even though we were there, like, 20 years before. But that's fine. As backlash to that, there was a lot of workplace discrimination. No equal pay, gender wage gap was, like, really entrenched. There was no financial independence. There were no legal protections, so you still couldn't get a bank account. There was no protections against any kind of workplace discrimination. And media also, this is when, like, that term feminist started coming in. Right. And again, they kept, I suppose, demonizing, as they did with the witches feminists. So women are. Or feminists are unhappy. They're very anti man. They're aggressive. They're extreme. It's basically still what people think of as feminist, which is really sad. And it kind of kicked off those mommy wars, I suppose, which made kind of tried to shame working mothers into or shame them for not staying home, creating that tension, creating again that kind of like woman versus woman situation where it's like the women who want to stay home and have a family, that's great. And also the women who want to go to work and have a family or not, that's also great. That's what feminism is. But people created in the media that tension to make it easier. So. So that's kind of like the 60s through to maybe almost like 2000ish. [00:52:58] Speaker B: Would you say that similar things were happening in the UK as well? So in terms of the prescribing Valium and stuff and then the differences in kind of rights and so on, the. [00:53:13] Speaker A: Differences in rights, the return to domestic life and things like that. Yes. I don't think you guys had the medicalization aspect of it at the same level we did because our pharmaceutical local industry is crazy. And it was back then too for you guys it was more of a drinking issue. So like it was more alcohol based rather than prescription drug. But I think the mental health still absolutely plummeted. And you guys had have very similar trajectory as us to like when rights are kind of established or you're either like a few years ahead or we'll do things a couple years ahead, but we're pretty much equal on that. It's pretty like if you're looking at like western white women, pretty consistent. And also if you're looking at like the 60s through the 90s, at the same time we have the civil rights movement happening as well. So there's a lot of social change happening for the very established and privileged white dude. He's probably starting to get a little uncomfortable, which is silly, but they are. Because in the outlook of the patriarchy, everything's quite hierarchical, right. So if you're at the top of the hierarchy, then you're at the bottom. And that means you're going to be kept punched down, Right? You're going to be stomped on. Whereas that's not necessarily how all systems work. A non patriarchal system might work as a circle where we're all equal, where, you know, you might still have some hierarchy, but there's no punishment for being at the bottom, things like that. So it's really funny to me when men imagine what feminism wants to be is just reverse patriarchy, when that's just not it. We Just want equity for everyone. You know what I mean? So you've got this period of massive social change, and then we enter the modern era that you and I have to deal with. [00:55:11] Speaker B: Yay. [00:55:12] Speaker A: Woo. Where we have the Internet fueling a shit show. Yeah, yeah. Like, I used to think, until I knew, until I, like noticed it, that we were like, oh, we're so lucky to be around now. It's amazing. And I recognize that these people have always probably been around, but now they have the freedom to like literally threaten to murder or assault you on the Internet on a daily basis. And so that's basically where we are now. So if we go from like 2010s to about now in 2025, we had like, I said that kind of like, little step back, little kind of like 90s, early 2000s. Like, think about how problematic TV in the early 2000s was. It was like, so gross. And then in the 2010s we had like the MeToo movement in 2017, kind of more modern third wave feminism. That's more intersectional. Some activism stuff and more, I think. So this is where social media helped. We had some more awareness of the gender inequity that happened. And people started to speak up about it. People who didn't have a microphone before, like Instagram and TikTok and all that kind of stuff, started to speak up about their, like, their oppression, whether that be gender or race or, you know, socioeconomic status. And that was great for a little bit until like five seconds later, the backlash just intensified like crazy online. And this has escalated so quickly that like in 2016, when Trump was elected, you wouldn't necessarily even think about some of the stuff he's doing now. And then here we are eight years later, and it's just like a no brainer for half the country to take away people's rights. The Internet just makes everything happen so fast. So right now we're seeing the rise of trad wives. Have you seen trad wife stuff online? Oh, my God, I cannot believe that. No, I'm very happy for you. I always get really. [00:57:23] Speaker B: Okay. [00:57:24] Speaker A: I get really like happy for your experiences when I come across something that, like when he didn't really know who Andrew Tate was, I'm like, so jealous. Oh, yeah, what is it? [00:57:33] Speaker B: What is. [00:57:34] Speaker A: How do I describe? So basically it's like these online communities and influencers that glorify kind of that 1950s ideal for women. So, like, I don't know why I would. They all talk like this. I don't know why I would Leave the house. Like, they call this oppression. And they're like making a homemade oat. Oatmeal. Most of the, most of the actual influencers are people that are married to very rich people and can afford to spend. I mean, they are working because they're influencers. And filming all this, doing all this stuff. Tate is a full time job, but they have the time to make cocoa. Like not like, not powdered cocoa, actual cocoa granules and like make cereal and like all this kind of stuff. And it's like basically trying to say like, you guys are being dramatic by saying there's any form of oppression. We are meant to be in the kitchen. So that's massively risen online alongside the incel, which is the involuntary celibate and just kind of like hyper masculine Andrew Tate. People that think that women need to be in the kitchen. I see videos up all day, all day, every day of men going like, well, women, women are too stupid. Why would I even want to have a conversation with them? And I'm like, oh, you're putting this online, dude. And they just, they've always been there. They just say it now because they have platforms from idiots. [00:58:58] Speaker B: That's the scary thing is like, they have a voice and there are people who are listening and taking that stuff seriously. Like, we can kind of, we can watch it and almost, almost like laugh about it in a way, because it's so ridiculous. But there are people who will be ultimately like manipulated by, by that. And we'll lean on that. [00:59:20] Speaker A: Not only do they lean on it, they're spending thousands and thousands of dollars to take these courses on how to be these kinds of men. [00:59:29] Speaker B: Wow. [00:59:30] Speaker A: Yeah, it's really bad. And this, you know what? It all started just because. Not all started, but those courses, because of that hustle culture, they realize they can take advantage of a vulnerable, vulnerable group of men who are probably a bit lonely, haven't maybe upped their social skills to meet with how women are today. That male loneliness, like, epidemic that keeps being blamed on women is just because men haven't evolved with, you know, with society. Really, everyone's leaving them behind because so many of them aren't forming those bonds, those social things, like they're afraid to hug their own friends. You know, they're not building that community. So people are taking advantage of them, but that just makes it more dangerous for women and other groups. So whether that be physically. So violence and harassment against women online and in person has gone up significantly. Um, there's been, well, at least right now in the Us not here yet in the uk but there's been the rollback of women's rights. So Roe v. Wade, which is right to choose, was overturned by a few years ago. Our reproductive rights are just completely reduced in so many place places. They this year Trump took back or rolled back the executive order that prohibited workplace discrimination based on like protected characteristics such as gender, other characteristics as well. And that's where all this like anti woke DEI stuff is coming from. And this has led to like the subsequent erasure of women in all these federal agencies. So those people that say, well, I haven't seen it trickle down yet to my life experience, like, well, do you work in the federal government? No. Okay, it's going to take a little while. Right. Whereas the people working in the federal government, they've completely gotten rid of anyone who is either covering DEI or edi. If you're in the UK and they've just gotten rid of so many people of protected characteristics. People don't realize how important DEI is. DEI is veteran protection, it's ageist protection, it's gender, it's race, it's sexual identity. And I think 30,000 people have been fired in the government. [01:01:47] Speaker B: The woman I was talking about to earlier, so Chantel, I keep getting her last name, but she was kind of talking about the kind of EDI or DEI sort of changes and how that has in terms of, I suppose employment has the worst impact on like white women because there are so many white women who are employed in those spaces. [01:02:12] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. We're, you know, privileged enough to be in these spaces like you and I are, but we would probably be the first, first to go. I've seen that quite a few times by black content creators who are experts in the topic as well. So it's interesting that she said that as well. Like just looking at the list. So if you guys. A lot of people probably don't kind of follow me on social media, but I did a video a couple weeks ago about the National Science foundation banning certain supposed DEI terms from either obtaining a grant or if you've had a grant, if you have these terms, you'll not receive funding anymore. The NSF gives 30% of research funding in the whole country. So any term to do with gender, you can't say female, you can't say black, you can't say bias. [01:03:07] Speaker B: What can you say? [01:03:09] Speaker A: Anything. Yeah, the word male isn't on there, weirdly enough. [01:03:15] Speaker B: What is? The crap is. [01:03:16] Speaker A: I know. So that's where we are now. And I feel like I've just Sprinted through it all and. I'm sorry, I feel. I feel like you didn't even talk that much, Laura. [01:03:25] Speaker B: I felt like I did. [01:03:27] Speaker A: I feel like I need you to say more. Say, do more poetry for us. More poetry. [01:03:31] Speaker B: That's the only poem that I learned. Try and do more. No, I think it's nice because I think it's. It's nice to kind of get the almost because obviously there's so much like you said that you could dig into, like, more specifically, but I think it's nice to almost like zoom out and get that overall picture of, I suppose, the journey that we've kind of been through. Like you say, where has the progress been made, but then where have we been knocked back again and then how are things almost repeating themselves again now? So. [01:04:05] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And that's gonna always repeat itself. If we're under patriarchy, it's just. That's the only. That's the only option. Right. So it's just going to be a never ending cycle that we have to deal with until. Until it's over and. Yeah, we'll see. I don't even like, I'm like. Can I say something positive? There are some people that think that people are responding so vitriolically because it's the breaking point of that system, but I'm not as, like knowing the cycles that have happened throughout history and that basically this has happened constantly. I don't. I'm not. So I don't really think that's the point the. The case. But we'll see. That'd be nice. Could you imagine if we were alive to see the fall of the patriarchy? I would throw so many parties. You would, you would. [01:04:58] Speaker B: That would be. It would be. Yeah. It'd be so interesting, wouldn't it? Like. [01:05:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:05:03] Speaker B: And how that comes about, how things change, what things look like if things do change or if it ends up just being, I don't know, some other sort of mess. Who knows? [01:05:12] Speaker A: Yeah. The issue is for the patriarchy to die, it would likely just have to implode because there's a reason there are no matriarchal societies left, or there are a couple, but most of them were destroyed because they're not violent societies. And they were destroyed by people that just had loads of weapons and no empathy within, like, days of infiltration. So, like, dudes destroy patriarchy with a similar system and then take, I don't know. [01:05:43] Speaker B: It'S making me think of Lagertha from Vikings and how, you know, like, she went and like, became Earl but then the guys basically just kept taking advantage of. I mean, she would kill them to her favor. [01:05:58] Speaker A: Yeah, I love her, but. [01:06:00] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, we need to be more like Lagertha. [01:06:03] Speaker A: That's my, like, goal. That's my life goal. Yeah. Oh, well. [01:06:10] Speaker B: So shall we finish with the questions? [01:06:13] Speaker A: Do it. Yeah. I feel like we need your relaxing. [01:06:19] Speaker B: My. Like, my snotty blocked up. [01:06:22] Speaker A: You don't sound that bad. You sound. [01:06:24] Speaker B: No, maybe it's just because, like, my ears are so blocked that I sound strange to myself. Maybe that's it. Anywho. So things to reflect on. So I suppose we can all kind of think about if there's areas in our life or within the communities that we're in where we're seeing backlash to women's progress, even that if that's in, like, online spaces, you know, can we kind of identify and be aware of them? And then what are some kind of small acts of feminism or, like, micro feminist acts that we might be able to take part in? [01:07:01] Speaker A: I. Oh, I want to hear yours. [01:07:04] Speaker B: Today I made one of my male colleagues go out of the lift first, even though they told me to go. I was like, no, no, no, you go. [01:07:13] Speaker A: And did you do it like that? No, no, no. [01:07:16] Speaker B: Maybe not quite like that. [01:07:20] Speaker A: I like. I like to edit my emails to sound as much like a man as, like, you know, not do the, like, hi, how are you? I am nice, but also know what I'm doing. I'm just like, here's what I want. This is what I need by this date. [01:07:34] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh, I can't do that. Yeah, that gives me anxiety. Maybe I need to try and do that more. Yeah, I had that. Someone who emailed me have been a week or so ago, and they called, refer to me as miss and one of my male colleagues who's the same kind of level as me as professor. And that's just crazy, isn't it? That you're the same level, but as a woman, you're miss, but as a man, you're professor. And it. Yeah, again, like. And it's. I think it is kind of calling those things out. So I did reply and kind of call it out. [01:08:12] Speaker A: What did you end up saying? [01:08:13] Speaker B: I can't remember. I think it was just something not as. Not as intense as you would have done, Kristin. I think it was like something like, in future correspondence, please recognize that we are both, like, doctor titles. [01:08:26] Speaker A: That's good. Yeah. Well, because not only did he make your colleague a professor, but he took away any title that you had. [01:08:36] Speaker B: It was a woman. [01:08:38] Speaker A: Oh, really? [01:08:39] Speaker B: Who sent the. Who sent the email? It was a woman. [01:08:41] Speaker A: Oh, my God. Oh, my God. So not only did she do that, which, yeah, I've got a lot of thoughts about that anyway, but she also took away. She also applied your potential relationship to a man, to your title, instead of thinking that you could have any title that's earned, like, doctor. Like, don't get me started about how women have to earn titles that don't relate them to a man versus a man. Just being like, mister. If it's Mr. Somebody, you don't know if they're married or not, that's fine. If it's miss, Mrs. Miss, like, things like that, that just tells you your woman's relationship to a man. So she just went straight to like, well, you're clearly an unmarried woman. [01:09:20] Speaker B: You are clearly single. Like, wow, thank you. [01:09:27] Speaker A: Oh, God. [01:09:29] Speaker B: Oh, there we go. And on that and all that. [01:09:35] Speaker A: Thank you all for listening. As usual, we probably have more questions than answers, and probably more Paige. But we enjoyed exploring a brief history of women's progress on today's episode. Did this leave you guys with any questions, any areas you want us to further explore? Please comment and let us know. We'd also love to know if you have any other topics you want us to explain explore, so get in touch. Please make sure to, like, follow or engage however your platform allows. And tell your friends if you have them. [01:10:07] Speaker B: If not, sorry. If not. [01:10:09] Speaker A: That's okay. You can. We could be your friends. [01:10:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:10:13] Speaker A: You can find us on various social media platforms. The link is in the bio of our but why Instagram and the show notes. And remember, the first step to understanding is asking but why? Yay.