Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the but why Podcast where we explore the human experience through a psychological lens by asking, but why? Today we are exploring the modern take on witches and how the witch trials still affect us today. But first, because we've spent some time procrastinating and want to keep doing that. Laura, how's it going?
[00:00:20] Speaker B: How is it going?
I never know how to respond to this question, but yeah, all right. I think had a reasonably chilled out weekend, reengaged with a past life love, which is the Sims. And that gave me a lot of, I don't know, endorphins.
[00:00:37] Speaker A: Nice.
[00:00:38] Speaker B: So I enjoyed doing that. How are you?
[00:00:40] Speaker A: Nice. I'm good. I. It's always funny when you say, how are you? Because in America it's basically the English version of you. All right?
Whereas, like here, when you ask a British person, how are you? They're like, how am I? Like, that's like so personal. Deep. It's like a deep question where like, for us, a how's it going? Is like very casual. Or it'll just kind of be like, good. Yeah. You.
[00:01:05] Speaker B: Yeah. If I'm like passing someone in like the corridor and I'm like, I might be like, you okay. And it's like waving and walking past and then you don't say anything.
But I actually tried to, not long ago when people ask me how I am, to actually pause and stop and think about it rather than just say, good.
[00:01:22] Speaker A: I love that. I think that's really important.
[00:01:24] Speaker B: It's.
[00:01:25] Speaker A: It's good for other people and it's good for us to like go, oh, wait a minute. Actually, good question. But that confused me so much when I moved here. I don't know if it's because obviously I'm super literal, but also the cultural difference. When I would walk into a shop and somebody's like, you alright? I'm like, yes. Does it look like there's something wrong with me? What do you mean? Am I alright? Am I okay?
[00:01:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:01:47] Speaker A: What do you mean? Does it look like I have an issue?
[00:01:50] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
Is something wrong? And then I never know whether to say back to them, are you okay?
[00:01:57] Speaker A: Yeah. And I feel like if I said that, it would seem really aggressive as well, like just because of my own delivery. Yeah, yeah. Are you. What's your problem? So I just go with my well practiced American, how's it going? Good. How are you? Like that?
[00:02:13] Speaker B: Yeah, just that cheery tone and then everyone feels better about themselves.
[00:02:17] Speaker A: Yep. Whereas on the inside I'm like, why are you speaking to me?
[00:02:21] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
I'll Know that next time you ask me.
[00:02:26] Speaker A: No, I'm talking about strangers in public, not you. Do we have a dog trying to break in again?
[00:02:32] Speaker B: I pulled. Had to pull across like a bedside table in front of the door.
[00:02:37] Speaker A: You are barricading yourself in the room.
[00:02:40] Speaker B: I have. I barricaded myself.
Any. Who's.
[00:02:45] Speaker A: Well, while you were dealing with your lovely dog intrusion, your familiars intrusion, I was thinking that we're on episode four now, which is crazy to think. Okay, yeah, it feels like so much more, but also we've done less. I don't really know how to explain that, but how has the experience been for you so far?
[00:03:06] Speaker B: How has the experience been?
I think. I think it's nice to almost like reflect on the things we're reflecting on. And I think always like talking to you and kind of hearing your views on things and the research that you've read on it. So I think it's nice to reflect on it in that sense. But I suppose it's also quite interesting in terms of, I don't know, being perceived on a podcast and people listening and questioning how people might perceive the conversations, whether in a positive way or in a way of challenging some of the things that we're saying.
Yeah. What about you?
[00:03:51] Speaker A: I think that that perception element relates a lot to what I've kind of picked up on. I think when I was maybe editing maybe the last episode, the Witches one. I think obviously with practice, things get better and I think we're getting a little bit better and our technological issues are less and less frequent and things like that. So the interesting thing for me coming as like a very high masking autistic person or somebody who has been high masking throughout my life and is trying not to masks so much is so for. For context, for the people listening, we use a software that basically can naturally edit with AI or we go through and edit things because we really value authenticity. We're not doing edits, edits. It's more technological issues or, you know, when we were sick, you know, a couple episodes ago, trying to edit out like our sneezes and things like that.
[00:04:44] Speaker B: Yeah. And dog intrusions.
[00:04:46] Speaker A: Dog intrusions, which honestly probably don't need it to be edited out because everyone wants to see a dog.
[00:04:53] Speaker B: Yeah, true.
[00:04:55] Speaker A: But the thing that has, like been really difficult for me in all of this is having that ability to post edit myself as a high masking person and then not do it. So I can take out filler words so I know that I say like a lot or. Etc, etc, and there's a lot out there about autistic people, like using these filler words to mediate that processing in conversation. And so it's been hard to not take that stuff out, to almost present myself as how I want to be perceived instead of who I actually am. And it's. It's definitely been a challenge of, you know, I've spent 20 odd years in person applying that filter of my personality and things like that. And it's really been an exercise in unmasking to have that ability to do it before what we're saying or thinking or our conversation goes out to other people, you know, so that's been my kind of like, whoa, this is quite difficult aspect. Other than that, I've really enjoyed all of it because we love our conversations. That's why we started this podcast.
[00:06:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:11] Speaker A: But, yeah, the matching thing is interesting.
[00:06:14] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think it's almost like paradoxical in a sense, if that's the right word, because it's like talking to you. I feel comfortable and I can, I suppose, kind of be myself and maybe be a little bit awkward at times or have strange quirks. So that feels like that's one thing where I can be comfortable and I suppose be more authentic. But then if you almost like think about people listening or how it's being perceived, then that's like a completely different way that I would probably communicate. And I always wonder, like, do. Do we come across differently in this as we would like in the real world, so to speak? You know what I mean? Like, I guess again, it's just like, how are we being perceived?
How are the things that we're kind of saying being taken? Especially when you don't get that much kind of feedback, obviously from people. So that's why we always also really like hearing what you guys, like, think about the podcast and how you've taken perhaps some of the conversations we've had and thought about them through your own lenses. So I think that's really cool as well.
[00:07:22] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. I love hearing from people about their thoughts and what they want to hear more about and the art exchanges. It is really cool. And I think you're totally right. I think you and I have built such a safe environment with each other. It's almost weird to give people insight into that, but also really nice.
It's almost like, was it two episodes ago you talked about at a recent conference or was it a last year conference? I can't remember where you were like, oh, I can wear a band T shirt. I can be more authentic. So I think it's part of, like, maybe we're starting to be more authentic in our lives more broadly, and this is, you know, one part of that. But then maybe we're starting to act more authentic in these other environments as well.
[00:08:05] Speaker B: Yeah, I think so. And I actually think that I've had some experiences, like, in work recently where I think I've been being more authentic, but actually I haven't been totally sure if I should have been like that or not. And, like, wondering again, like, where are these boundaries? Especially if we're thinking about, like, in a professional environment, like, am I being my authentic self, but actually I'm being a little bit too much, and do I actually need to come across in a more professional way, which might not be my fully authentic self, but is appropriate for that environment? So I guess again, it's this. That idea in terms of, like, masking or the performance identity, performative identity, stuff, like, when is that useful? And sometimes a couple of times in the last, like, maybe week or so, I've been like, have I swung too far the other way? And people are like, what's happened to Laura? Like, is she okay?
[00:09:02] Speaker A: That. That is definitely experience in the last year of unmasking, like, probably even losing some people because they were friends with the mask and not me. But yes, of course, there's that balance of, like, we can't just do whatever we want and act however we want, whenever we want to. That's irresponsible. So I think there's obviously that professional piece, but then there's also our assumption. So, like, for example, your assumption about tattoos, that was driven into us by, you know, the older generation, that these are unprofessional, whereas now they're not unprofessional. And, you know, so learning the balance between, okay, here's authentically me. Is this professional or is it unprofessional or is it actually not unprofessional? Because this was just a broader idea driven into me that I don't really know where it came from. And so it's finding that balance and it's really interesting. But thankfully, we're very reflective people. But I think there can be the tendency probably too far.
[00:10:03] Speaker B: I was, like, thinking we're like, 10 minutes in and we haven't spoken about the topic yet. But, like, yeah, too reflective.
[00:10:08] Speaker A: Sorry, guys. Maybe we should do an episode on reflection so you can reflect alongside us.
Yeah, but that's actually a good point. Maybe we should get started, at least veer towards our topic.
[00:10:23] Speaker B: Yes.
So, like, naturally not Awkward.
[00:10:27] Speaker A: At all? No. Oh, whoops.
So last week we brought Halloween pictures to the table.
[00:10:35] Speaker B: Oh, my God. I forgot about this. In that last 10 minutes, I forgot we were doing this. And I'm so excited. So, yeah. So we have some more that we wanted to share mostly Kristin, because Kristen seems to have, like, a treasure trove of, like, old Halloween costumes where I have, like, one I could find my.
[00:10:53] Speaker A: I asked my family group chat for, you know, if they had any, like, older Halloween pictures, and I got so many.
[00:10:59] Speaker B: Is it. Maybe it's because it's bigger in America? I don't know. We. I mean, we always kind of did.
Maybe I always, like, like, pumpkin carving and stuff like that. But the dressing up bit was what got me. So this picture is.
[00:11:12] Speaker A: Do you want me to describe it?
[00:11:14] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:11:15] Speaker A: Like last week, actually.
[00:11:15] Speaker B: Halloween. Yeah, you describe it.
[00:11:17] Speaker A: It's not Halloween.
[00:11:19] Speaker B: It's not Halloween. I think it was like, we were on holiday and there was, like, a fancy dress competition.
[00:11:25] Speaker A: Oh, my God.
[00:11:26] Speaker B: For no reason.
[00:11:26] Speaker A: So as soon as you add the competitive bit, you're like, okay, I'm down.
[00:11:30] Speaker B: Maybe that's what it is. I really don't know.
[00:11:33] Speaker A: So I'm assuming I know which one is you. You are either a Teletubby or an alien.
[00:11:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm a Teletubby. I'm Tinky Winky.
[00:11:44] Speaker A: You're Tinky Wink. Oh, no. You're gonna get the song stuck in my head.
[00:11:47] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, that's not.
[00:11:48] Speaker A: So you have all black and. Is that, like, tin foil taped to your chest? Yes.
[00:11:54] Speaker B: And I assume my clothes are meant to be purple. I'm not sure if it's just the bad cameras from.
[00:11:59] Speaker A: And then how did you make your hat thing? What is that?
[00:12:02] Speaker B: I think my mum made it for me. I don't know if it's just paper, but my mum made it. And then a. Like a. You know those bits of wire you get with the fluff around them that you can, like, like, bend? I said to my mum when she sent this to me, I was like, how did you do it? Like, how did you get me to dress up? And she was like, well, she was like, it's just tin foil and headgear. Like, you're wearing all of your normal clothes. Yeah. And I was like, oh, that makes sense. I was like, you did a good job.
[00:12:31] Speaker A: You're still, like, in your trainers and, like, a jumpsuit or like a sweatsuit of some sort. I love it. I'm so proud of you, Laura.
[00:12:39] Speaker B: Thank you. I was quite proud of myself, too. I looked very pleased with myself, which I was surprised at.
[00:12:44] Speaker A: You're like, this is a fantastic outfit.
[00:12:47] Speaker B: Yeah. And then my sister's there, like, living life with her.
[00:12:50] Speaker A: I don't know if she's dressed as.
[00:12:51] Speaker B: Like, Esmeralda or something.
[00:12:53] Speaker A: Yeah, that's kind of what I was getting. Esmeralda vibes. You know, you could tell she was very committed to the outfit because she's got her foot sticking out, like, very. She's very committed.
[00:13:03] Speaker B: Extremely. Okay, so first one, you're the very tall one.
[00:13:07] Speaker A: I'm always the really tall one.
[00:13:09] Speaker B: Always the real tall. Okay. Okay. I think I, like, don't know where you are in age in terms of your family, and you're wearing, like, a very girly pink, like, fairy dress, but then you have, like, very dramatic and gothic, like, necklaces on.
[00:13:23] Speaker A: That's why I felt like I had to include that one, because Jack's like. Jack's the one who pointed that out. Like, okay, you put a fairy princess costume on, but you had to add, like, the gothic, like, very aggressive gothic necklace.
[00:13:36] Speaker B: Yeah. It's like, this isn't quite me. You know what? I need a bit of black.
[00:13:40] Speaker A: I'm happy to be a princess, but I also need to add that goth.
[00:13:43] Speaker B: Yeah.
Love it. Okay, Should I go on the second one?
[00:13:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:49] Speaker B: Okay, so second one there is a smaller child with what I assume is, like, a unicorn.
[00:13:57] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:58] Speaker B: And then next, I assume you're the one next to the small child, so, like, dressed in black with, like, cat ears on and holding what looks like a cat, like, cauldron in your mouth.
And your face, like, you look. I don't know if you look sad or, like, shocked about something. And then you've got, like, some, like, very, like, makeshift face paint on. How do you think you were feeling in this moment?
[00:14:28] Speaker A: I think. I think I look focused. I think that's my focus face. And I think the reason I think that is sometimes when I'm really focused, I either look really bitchy or, like, upset. Sometimes, like, sad. I was delivering at a conference last year, and I was talking to some students afterwards about what I had presented and stuff like that, and one of them was like, are you okay? I was like, what do you mean? I was focusing. I was like, this is so embarrassing. I'm literally just focusing on the conversation. Do I look upset?
[00:14:59] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I've had it as well like that. I just look really sad. If I'm listening to instructions, people be like, look more happy about it. And I'm like, why? It's just trying to, like, listen to what you were saying and I am excited. Just like.
[00:15:15] Speaker A: So you're saying they're trying to get you to smile more. Is that what you're saying?
[00:15:19] Speaker B: Exactly. Smile more.
[00:15:21] Speaker A: Check. Smile more. Hashtag, you know, sexism, etc.
[00:15:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:28] Speaker A: With that in mind, we should probably move on and play our theme song.
[00:15:35] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
Like.
[00:15:56] Speaker A: Oh, my God.
[00:15:58] Speaker B: I mean, I've got to say something about his.
[00:16:00] Speaker A: I think, yeah, 20 minutes, that's like that. That's bad for even us. I think we've probably like.
[00:16:08] Speaker B: Please fast forward to 20 minutes. If you just want to listen to the. The main topic, what I'll do is.
[00:16:13] Speaker A: I'll do like a chapter. I'll be like, chapter of 20 minutes of bullshit. Okay. This is where we act.
[00:16:19] Speaker B: 20 minute retro.
[00:16:22] Speaker A: Oh, my God. Okay, so, okay, I am focusing now. So if you're watching on the YouTube and I look really sad, that's because I'm focused, not because I'm sad.
[00:16:33] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:16:34] Speaker A: So we ended the last pod with, you know, that haunting understanding almost that the witch trials really accomplished their purpose of putting women in their place and solidifying this in both, like, culturally, interpersonally and in, like, say, laws and legislature. So these obviously have a lasting impact because of this. So we can see that here in, like, patriarchy and capitalism, and they've really shaped our societal attitudes towards women. And obviously we're talking about the broader social impact of the witch hunts and we're looking at culture and systems in place, so government, legislation, economics and media. And then we have that more psychological impact, that individual impact, which can be seen in kind of the fear and disdain towards women, the fear of women stepping out of their boundaries. And so this is often driven by that social setup. But because of that social structure, individuals need to kind of step outside their own comfort zone to confront this. Now it's almost feels like I'm talking about something Laura and I engage with a lot for work, the socioecological model. If you work in education, you've probably come across it quite a bit. I think we should probably do an episode on that, actually. I think it would be a cool way to situate a lot of our conversations.
[00:17:52] Speaker B: Definitely. Because I think it links into. Well, just links into the human experience. Right. Because we're all living within a society.
So, yeah, we should definitely have an episode coming up on that.
[00:18:03] Speaker A: Yeah, let's do that. I mean, I think, like you said, it's a really good. It's a good way to question, but.
[00:18:10] Speaker B: Why it is we can package it up nicely into different categories. But why? Yes, definitely.
[00:18:16] Speaker A: We love a category.
[00:18:19] Speaker B: I do.
[00:18:20] Speaker A: So before we get into the more kind of sad and depressing bits, I think, yes, you know, surprise, surprise. Laura's the one who was like, maybe we should talk about some happier stuff. And I was like, I was reading.
[00:18:31] Speaker B: Two Christians in this, and it's like, oppression, misogyny. I'm like, well, I wanted to talk about tv. So my lighter TV note for opening is, I suppose, like, as we were talking about, I guess, witches more in the modern day, I was thinking a lot about the witches that we see in the media. I suppose, as we've grown up watching TV and kind of how that portrayal of witches has maybe been quite comforting for people like us, maybe. So I suppose, like, seems like this modern witch trend can be traced back to, like, the 60s and the 70s where we start to see witches in a bit more of a positive light. I think that the first kind of good witch was the wizard of Oz. Right.
But, you know, even though we were seeing more, I suppose, positive portrayals, we were still very much seeing that split in terms of a witch was either a villain or, like a feminist hero.
So I suppose what I thought it might be fun to reflect on for us is, like, what witches do. We remember, like, when we were growing up that perhaps made a lasting impression on us.
[00:19:48] Speaker A: Ooh, Sabrina, the teenage witch. Obviously, for me, like, the black cat, the teenager, you know, it was perfect for, you know, when you were growing up, when I don't even know what age I was, I just knew that it was. Yeah, that was probably the earliest.
[00:20:02] Speaker B: Watched it a lot.
[00:20:03] Speaker A: Just watched it a lot. And I was like, one day I will have a black cat. Now I have two. One of which I adopted last Halloween.
[00:20:10] Speaker B: Yay.
[00:20:11] Speaker A: Did you watch Sabrina?
[00:20:13] Speaker B: Yes. We watched it so much. I was talking to my sister the other day, and I was sending her the links to the old video game that we used to play, which was Sabrina. I remember you'd go around and search her house for clues and cast spells.
[00:20:28] Speaker A: That sounds.
[00:20:28] Speaker B: So, Sabrina, I think you can do a full walkthrough on YouTube, like, if you really wanted to. But yeah, we watched Sabrina a lot.
One episode that really stands out to me was when she was trying to bake herself a boyfriend. Do you remember that?
[00:20:43] Speaker A: No.
[00:20:45] Speaker B: You could have to Google this later.
[00:20:46] Speaker A: Oh, my God.
[00:20:47] Speaker B: She was, like, going to a dance. Maybe it was prom or something, and she didn't have a boyfriend. So her and her aunts, like, we're trying to bake anyway. Oh, my God, her boyfriend. It was interesting and slightly disturbing, but it's one that really stands out in my mind.
[00:21:01] Speaker A: I think that's what I liked about Sabrina is like, it was so like, normal of a show. Like a teenager dealing with normal things. And it's like, here's some really disturbing things we'll throw in because witchcraft. And I thought that was really fun. Have you watched the modern take on Sabrina on Netflix?
[00:21:19] Speaker B: I tried. I think I watched maybe like the first episode and I just did not get into it. Did you?
[00:21:25] Speaker A: I really like it. I'm actually watching it because it's Halloween time.
I recommend it. I mean, it's way creepier. There's, you know, but I really like it.
[00:21:37] Speaker B: Okay. And what's the portrayal like? So in terms of like, what sort of character does she like, resonate in that series, do you think?
[00:21:46] Speaker A: So she's still like the blonde teenager who's like a bit, you know, preppy and stuff like that, but it's quite cool because she is quite nuanced. And so she represents a really powerful witch who's able to actually do, you know, some. Some pretty messed up stuff. But she's also like really kind and wants to protect people. And you could like, has decision making that that's really positive. And she's very different from. She's like part witch, part human. So it's like trying to walk that balance of what to do. So it's really interesting. I won't give give too much away, but I quite like their portrayal. And there's also another character. I forget her name, but she's part of a group of three sisters in there. And they're supposed to be kind of the bad guys, but they grow as well. And I find them really interesting. And I also love their outfits.
[00:22:38] Speaker B: Okay, that is a big point.
[00:22:40] Speaker A: That's a positive.
[00:22:41] Speaker B: As you were talking, I think what I was thinking about is how this portrayal is like, it's both in terms of it's. They're really powerful, but they also have this kind of kind and maybe even like, say, kind of preppy, like, girly side, like cool outfits. But they're really strong and they're powerful. Right. So I think that's one of the things, like, I quite like about some of the more modern representation is that it's not just telling us that we have to be one or the other, but that we can be both.
[00:23:13] Speaker A: I totally agree. Is they allow that interpretation of women with nuance. And honestly, especially in the era that we were growing up, there weren't many women or female characters that presented nuance because there wasn't, unless it was a teenage show much around, you know, women and girls experiences. So I think it allows us to have the nuance that portray. They portray him actually really thoughtfully when it's the witchy shows. And I don't know why, but I do see more of that and. Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. And I think that we've been able to use like back in the 70s, that's when this kind of started. And it ties into like what you said about when 60s, 70s, like witches started to be portrayed more and more and more and more nuanced and more complex rather than just like good or evil. So it's cool to see that exploration and that representation of the topic. And also it's been kind of reclaimed by feminists through from like normal everyday life through to like feminist scholars as a feminist icon rather than, you know, a way to repress people. So I think that's really cool.
[00:24:26] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. Like, I love that it's. Now we can like empower ourselves and like young girls as well through the representation of witches in this. More like meaningful and powerful, but also like, I would say they're also women. They also can be like girly girls at times. Not always, but it's like. Yeah, I think that's it for me. It's like very empowering. And I think when I was younger, watching some of these things on the tv, that's how I felt like, I remember there's this random show, you might not have heard of it. It's called Uboss. Have you heard of it? I think it's called. I think it stands for Ultimate Book of Spells and I think it kind of German or European or something. But there was one witch in that who was called Cassie and she was a junior witch and she wanted to become a sorcerer or sorceress in like a class of superior witches. And I named my dog after her.
[00:25:21] Speaker A: Oh, that's awesome.
[00:25:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I must have thought she was very cool.
[00:25:27] Speaker A: Oh, I love that. Making me think about my pet names. Now I've got Luna, who's our Halloween black cat. And then I've got Binks, who is from Hocus Pocus. The movie.
Yeah, friggin love that movie. Probably be watching that this week. Of course.
[00:25:44] Speaker B: Okay. Yes, I'm gonna reading Zachary Binks. Okay, Zachary.
[00:25:51] Speaker A: Zachary with a th.
[00:25:54] Speaker B: Okay, Zachary. Okay, I've got it. Yeah, my. Well, my other dog, like family dog, I called her Skywalker.
[00:26:04] Speaker A: Amazing. Amazing.
[00:26:05] Speaker B: So that was also fun. But no one called her Skywalker. I think everyone was embarrassed. So everyone just called her sky. But, you know, same thing. So.
[00:26:13] Speaker A: Yeah, and our dog is Thorin. And so when we're in the park shouting Thorin, people are like, what is his name? I love that.
[00:26:21] Speaker B: Like, I need to go and talk to you.
[00:26:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
This is how we make friends. We have to name our animals off of like the obscure topics of interest we have and then hope that we run into somebody in the park when we're screaming at them.
[00:26:34] Speaker B: It makes a lot of sense, really, when you think about it.
[00:26:37] Speaker A: Yeah. It's just logical. So, well, maybe like.
[00:26:40] Speaker B: Yeah, moving, like.
Yeah. So, well, moving on, I suppose, from maybe how witches have been presented to us in a way, like in our youth, I guess. Kristen, like, how do you link this in then with, I suppose some more of like the negative stereotypes or like the misogyny, like where does that stuff come in to how witches are represented in a more modern day.
[00:27:05] Speaker A: I really like how you presented that. So how witches have been presented to us, like packaged and shown to us, not how, how this stuff has actually impacted society. So that was like a fun, cool conversation around, like how we've been presented witches. But how have these things actually impacted us long term? And it's really sad, I mean, that they have had such a long lasting impact, not just, you know, the deaths that happen and stuff like that. It's still evident in our, like, interpersonal relationships through to our broader kind of cultural context.
I am going to emphasize again, if you've made it in 31 minutes and we're kind of only still just getting onto the topic, we need to listen to episode one first because that really informs this part of the conversation.
So as we kind of touched on at the end of last episode, witch trials reinforced and added to overall misogyny and gender depression. So obviously the witch trials were deeply, deeply rooted in misogyny. And those who were independent and outspoken or denied or defied traditional gender roles kind of took up space in society that was allocated to men. So whether that was, you know, on the more secular side. So women in business down through to the kind of more religious side, and these women were treated consistently with suspicion, fear, hostility and beyond. And so this kind of set the stage for ingraining that association between women with being irrational or evil. And this is seen a lot today. We talked, we touched on it already with that leadership double bind where women who are assertive or independent are often labeled as difficult and treated with hostility. And we can link this to that ambivalent sexism piece that we talked about in episode two, where women who kind of embrace these traditional gender roles are protected with benevolent sexism. So, like, they're restricted, but they're safe, more likely to be safe, whereas those who step out of these roles are more likely to face hostility, hostile sexism.
So it is really interesting to me to see that link between witch trials and this way of explaining gendered relationships, because you can see how that was established, this kind of fear and this hostility towards women who step out of the box.
So, you know, women back in the day would perform these roles to escape not just, like, sexism, but actual, you know, assault and worse. And so, yeah, you can see that still reflected in the broader misogyny and gender depression today. And so that's kind of the first thing I wanted to touch on.
[00:30:00] Speaker B: I think one of the things that stands out to me as you talk in there was this idea that women who maybe go along, if you like, kind of with this misogyny are kind of restricted but protected.
And I think that's a really interesting way to put it. So it's like, again, it's like this idea. Yeah, we can't win. So you're either restricted in what you're doing, but protected to the most part, in a way, or you're free, but you're. Yeah. Not safe, like, physically or mentally, emotionally, Men. Yeah, as well. Not safe at all. So, again, I think it's interesting there, like, I don't know, it just kind of feels frustrated that there isn't that kind of middle ground. There's something that has to be sacrificed and are you sacrificing your freedom or your safety?
[00:30:59] Speaker A: I think that actually links into what we were talking about with the kind of representation of witches and how that's changed. So it's become. It's gone from binary. Well, it's gone from only one option, evil, to binary good or evil, to a more nuanced approach. So hopefully we see that happen, like people taking more nuanced approaches to gender and finding some kind of happy place. But I think that's an interesting link that I never actually thought about those nuances as well.
[00:31:26] Speaker B: It just opens up. I don't know. I think it just kind of. And I often think this. This is maybe a slightly, like, rogue point, but I think what in. I don't know. Sorry. This is like. This is. Anyway, I'll say it anyway.
[00:31:40] Speaker A: Now.
[00:31:41] Speaker B: Now we're here in terms of, like, as we develop as people or like in our careers, I think that we often start, like, quite rigid and, you know, like rule based. Like, we have to be like, one way or the other. And I think as we do, yeah, develop, we learn more about ourselves. Like, we learn more. I think for me, what was important was I learned more about how other people do things and recognize when other people did things in a new, more nuanced way. So having role models who are nuanced and maybe don't fit this rule book that I had somehow written, like, for myself and how I should be like, allows me to become more accepting of myself. So I guess linking that back to this idea of nuance and the representation that we see, I suppose, like with witches nowadays, perhaps that is helping us or helping women to realize that there isn't necessarily a single rule book that they have to go off.
[00:32:40] Speaker A: Yeah, I think there is a rule book, but I think it's the acknowledgement that this rule book is no good. You know, it's not necessarily applicable to us. Because I think the other aspect is that you can see in society now is that perpetuation of negative stereotypes about women, which is the rule book about how to. To act. And so it. Because in order to reinforce the systematic misogyny and oppression, negative stereotypes about women needed to be ingrained. So this rule book about what is bad about women. So, you know, women are manipulative and dangerous and morally suspect, and the only way to not be that is to behave a certain way. So that image that witches are evil and corrupt, that women continue to. Sorry, my brain just went then.
So the image is of.
My God, my brain just completely went. Images of witches as evil and corrupt women continues to influence our negative depictions of women in literature, media, pop culture and stuff like that. So I feel like this is a really interesting area because at that top level, who's making these decisions about how to. How to represent women? Obviously there's loads more women now, but what we're used to from growing up, there's. That's not necessarily the case. You've got these big, powerful men at the top impacting individual perceptions of women through media. And I'm not just talking about shows. I'm talking about, you know, journals and, you know, newspapers and stuff. And, you know, there's loads of gender discrimination in professional and social settings. And women are facing harsher criticism about doing the same things because of these kind of negative stereotypes taken from this rulebook. And something that I will not rant about, even though I could, is how this impacts women. In politics. So we have a inherent fear of powerful women, and that's something that likely everyone has or has had and had to work to kind of deconstruct. So these stereotypes and overall misogyny about what women are looking like, what they're wearing, their emotional expressions, their personal life, really impact how women are perceived in politics. There's so many double standards about leadership. There's this vilification of women who don't conform to the norm. So it used to, like, be just so accepted in the states in the early 2000s that, especially if you were a woman, if you're not married with a couple of kids, it's going to be difficult for you to really get a significant voter, voter base because people just might not trust you. And this is coming from this rule book and linking it back again to witches.
This is used a lot in the media to link women in politics to witches. So there's this imagery and language of witchcraft demonizing female politicians and women politicians in the media. So, like, people will use terms like hag or witch, you know, towards women who are perceived as too powerful or out of line with what we might say is conventional. We have seen loads of women politicians portrayed as witches or a little bit more subtly being portrayed as manipulative, scheming, like, emotionally cold. And this really has that roots in that fear of witches as, like, dangerous. And I can't speak today. Malevolent.
[00:36:14] Speaker B: I can never say that word.
[00:36:16] Speaker A: Malevolent women. And the thing that gets me about this is linking it to the power of the media in perpetuating these harmful stereotypes, to the beginning of the witch trials with the formation of the printing press, and that being the reason for kicking off all these, you know, all the witch hunts. So we're still using media to impact how people are seeing women. And this is having broad impacts, not just on stereotypes, but on who is in politics, who is. Who is running the show, who is making policy. So, as I mentioned, not a massive Hillary Clinton fan, but it is really interesting to look at how she was vilified back in 2016. So she was referred to constantly with imagery around witchcraft because they wanted to frame her as menacing or untrustworthy. And this media campaign literally led to the election of Trump. We all know what I feel like about him. So this election of this person, which is just going to be. The use I use, the word I use to describe this person on here, has led to. Now, I know that it's American politics, not British, so. But it's led to a supreme Court, which is the broader court in our country, it's a Supreme Court that is likely to overturn decades and decades of progress for women, people of color, LGBTQ plus policies, things like that. Now, because of this. Me. I'm sorry, I'll get to the connection. The media vilification of one person has led to what might be the most regressive thing we've ever seen in modern American society. Like linking it to proper handmaids, tale things to other governments that have collapsed in similar ways.
[00:38:11] Speaker B: I didn't even think about it like that before. I don't think I realized that there was that imagery that was used connecting kind of Hillary to witchcraft. That's so interesting. Maybe that's just because I'm. Yeah, I guess over here in the UK that maybe we don't kind of see that portrayal. Also, I'm really bad at keeping up to politics, just so everybody knows. Like, I'm very, very naive because it makes me feel stressed, which is a terrible way to be. But that's mad. So it's mad how that.
I think it's just crazy how much of an impact that portrayal, that imagery of a witch is having on the decisions that people are making, and therefore, different decisions that are ultimately going to be made for. Well, for America are, in effect, how many people. Like, millions of people.
[00:39:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:06] Speaker B: And it's that step back, I think, which is really scary, because I think that we. I think a lot of the time we, you know, we do focus on progress when we focus on how things are changing and getting better, whether that is around, like, sexism or racism or kind of, like you say, LGBTQ plus kind of conversations. But I think that step back is scary because I think it's. It's like.
It's the uncertainty, I think, around, like, one, how far we're going to step back, and then two, like, when is that going to be changed again? Like, if these are literally laws that are being changed, like, that's scary.
[00:39:51] Speaker A: So Supreme Court, once they're in, it's a lifetime appointment. So the people. Yeah, there's eight of them right now. So basically. And quite a few that he did put in are quite young. So we're looking at people who might be in there for, like, 40 years.
[00:40:08] Speaker B: You know, oh, my goodness. With this sort of mindset.
[00:40:12] Speaker A: With this mindset. They were put there for this exact reason. And it's just tying. How everything has this impact, this societal fear of women and this ability to really tap into people's fear and hate overall, because it wasn't just that obviously there were loads of different things informing this, but it was just one significant thing.
It has real world impacts. People have literally been dying over the last couple of years since, since Roe versus Wade was overturned. There's literally just deaths and deaths and deaths and infant mortality rates have skyrocketed. So it's just like these stereotypes have impact and I think that's one of the things that we can really see and another one of the things that it's done is really silence women's voices through these stereotypes. So like as we kind of talk touched on the end of last episode, the witch trials really served to kind of silence women to especially those who wanted to challenge patriarchal structures. So if you're going to challenge this, the risk back then was you could be burnt at the stake. Just being labeled as a witch was enough. So this really had a linger, has had a lingering impact on women's ability to speak freely. Now obviously it's so much better now. Like we have the ability to do this. We can be quite outspoken. But even though we can do this, women in these spheres are facing such backlash and criticism or accusations that really echo these historical stigmas. So there's that mental health impact of just being an outspoken woman.
[00:41:48] Speaker B: And I think as well, like you say, we're kind of doing this and we're speaking our minds and I suppose sharing our thoughts on some of these, I suppose like quite like serious topics. Right. And I suppose that means that we have a degree of safety, I suppose, and where we live and kind of who we are and so on. So we're like privileged in that sense that we can. And I think sometimes it's hard to imagine being fearful of speaking up. I suppose I think we might see it more like ourselves personally perhaps in more professional scenarios or in more of these male dominated environments that we might be. But I think we are lucky in that we have a lot of spaces that we're in which is a very kind of pro women and pro empowering women.
[00:42:40] Speaker A: Right?
Yeah, the. It's really nice because a lot of the academic spheres are pro progress. Obviously there's still some structural issues we've got within them, but relative to other arenas, we are relatively protective and have a lot of privilege within these areas. And the interesting thing is, so I look at that from two perspectives. So number one, these environments are like more likely to attract people who are very open to learning, open to change and want that progress. But number two, these things still had to be enacted as policy. Somebody still had to Say, well, we need to make sure we're doing xyz, cpd, so that people are learning about this, so that they accept xyz. So it still had to be mandated with the policies in place at our institutions that we have to act in a certain way.
[00:43:35] Speaker B: And by these things, do you mean, like, CPD on, like, EDI stuff? Is that.
[00:43:41] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:43:42] Speaker B: Kind of around what you're talking about.
[00:43:44] Speaker A: Yeah. So just stuff around, like, forcing people's hands at Engage. Firstly, engaging with equity diversion and inclusion material, but also things that are, you know, kind of what we talk about a lot. What we need to have is certain protections in a sporting environment. So pathways for support. If you're experiencing discrimination or issues, issues, those still have to be ingrained in policy. They don't just happen.
[00:44:11] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, it doesn't. Yeah, it doesn't just happen. It's that there are, I suppose, now more people who are pushing to make changes. Or maybe, like, do you think that it is that there are more people who are in these powerful positions who are talking about it and making sure that it is something that's put in place? Or do we feel like it's more that people are doing it because they feel like they have to and it looks good to do it?
[00:44:37] Speaker A: It's probably, you know, like, everything, a combination of all of the above. I mean, it's going to be hopefully attracting people who want to make change.
You know, it's universities and other places going, okay, well, we need to be presenting properly for what we are. And then there's also broader, you know, kind of depending on what country you're. You're in. But, like, there's legislation about it, about what you have to. Yeah, I think it's a combination down from individual preference to broader cultural need.
[00:45:05] Speaker B: And I guess the hope is that eventually that will become something that is more natural and more ingrained, even though at the moment it feels kind of clunky and like we're just trying to squish it into something where it doesn't necessarily feel like it belongs yet. I think that eventually, you know, it will feel like it belongs and kind of new generations will hopefully experience that.
Yeah.
[00:45:33] Speaker A: Yeah, I think you're right. We talk about a lot. You've mentioned it a couple times. I think, even in different contexts today about how it takes that time to kind of integrate into people's minds and make those changes and everything like that. Another thing that popped into my head that the witch trials still have an impact is that. Oh, you know, speaking of Stepping out of your box and stuff like that is this fear that women kind of naturally have of doing that because of the potential backlash. So this fear was instilled by the witch hunts as well as other things. But the witch hunts, they really created that culture of silence and conformity, especially in those communities that women really feared that witch label. So there is like this massive fear of stepping out of that box. And it used to be the fear of, oh, I might, you know, be arrested and then burnt at the stake. Now it's am I going to be fired? Am I not going to progress in my career? Like our research has found that women who step out of the box are told, you know, basically they don't belong in these cultures. Even just like stepping out of the box for us, like, oh, do we want to present our opinions and expertise for, you know, the Internet to hear on a podcast, stuff like that?
[00:46:50] Speaker B: Yeah, it's like just that slight like increase in risk. Right.
And maybe it links back this, the perception stuff. Right. So if I step outside of this box, how am I going to be perceived? And yeah, is that going to affect the way that professionally I want to be received?
Yeah. And therefore have those knock on consequences in terms of career development, kind of promotions and things like that, which we know like say based on like the research that we've been doing. Women have less opportunities for anyway. So it's like if we have less opportunities and then we decide to step outside of the box, then we're increasing that risk even more of perhaps not being able to progress in life, in, in our careers.
[00:47:40] Speaker A: Yeah, you've just like triggered something in my head. Is this like fear of being perceived? We talk about it a little bit. I mean there, there are links to neurodivergence in that and stuff like that, but this overall overarching fear of being perceived. So stepping out of the box doesn't mean that, you know, you're doing anything crazy. You're, you're based. Women are basically scared. Obviously I'm generalizing and talking from a broader cultural point of view. I don't think much of this is very conscious. They are scared to go from not being perceived to being perceived because people just want them to be quiet and then you're fine, you're in the corner, but once you step out of that box, you're, you're something that is a person and no, we can't have that. That's a bit aggressive.
[00:48:25] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. Yeah, totally. And this is making me think if this is again like slightly unrelated, but I think related in that when we talk about this idea of being perceived, like if we go back to the, to the photos that we showed before.
So again I said to my mum, I was like, well, why didn't I like dressing up? And she said, well, I don't think you wanted like other people like looking at you and thinking that, like it was strange.
But then again, and I think I spoke about this, this in a previous episode, but then you almost, by not doing that thing, you end up looking even stranger and like being perceived kind of negatively anyway. So I wonder if there is something in terms of like how much of this is.
Is I suppose a fear and something that potentially won't play out and how much is it something that, yeah, I suppose, like, is a real risk. Do you know what I mean? Like, how much of this is stuff that, that we are kind of overthinking and worrying about how am I going to be perceived? What people are going to think? Do you know what I mean? And like that holding us back because we can make up full stories in our minds about what things might be like. And so I suppose we.
[00:49:42] Speaker A: I don't know what you're talking about. I've never done that in my life. I don't know what you're talking about.
[00:49:49] Speaker B: It's always like stepping outside of the box. It's like that's the experiment. You know what I mean?
[00:49:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:49:55] Speaker B: And it's.
[00:49:55] Speaker A: I feel like. I'm feel like some people listening to this might be like, what, are you guys crazy? Because I know some people who are just like, don't care, you know, about that perception and it's not a thing for them. So, you know, this can be a result of so many different things individually, how you were raised, how your brain works or doesn't work in my case, sometimes. Yeah. But I think what the important thing to note here is, is aside from that individual experience, what we do see in the research is that women are. When women are perceived, that's when issues start to happen and that's when they're no longer protected. So I think there's that individual aspect and then there's the aspect of, oh, within your organization, if you're standing out too much or in the wrong way, then that's an issue for your progression. Stuff like that.
[00:50:47] Speaker B: And you know what? This links well to is the topic we want to do next week, which is psychological safety, right?
[00:50:54] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:50:55] Speaker B: So again, like, the environments that we're in, like, that can make such a difference in terms of whether we feel we can take a step outside of that box and we can take risks and feel that we're yeah. Not going to be shut down. So I think that's also a huge part of it is that in certain environments, yeah, perhaps we do need to be a little bit more cautious.
But yeah, we'll talk more about psych safety.
[00:51:22] Speaker A: I love that you threw that in there because I'm pretty excited to get to that kind of more psychological approach and some maybe less heavy topics that people can really integrate in their lives. I really enjoyed doing these witches episode and the reason we structured it this way is because obviously it's Halloween so it's best from, you know, kind of getting the podcast out their perspective for us to do, which is around Halloween. But I am really excited to get to interesting topics that are maybe a little less like intense.
[00:51:51] Speaker B: Make you make Kristen less angry.
[00:51:53] Speaker A: Well, I don't know about that.
Oh yeah, true. Okay.
[00:51:57] Speaker B: The anger will still be there.
[00:51:59] Speaker A: We are actually I'm going to have a two week delay in our episode rather than doing it next Monday. We're going to do it the Monday afterwards because we were going to do an episode on the election but from a mental health point of view we've decided to skip that and just let my brain. I'll keep that inside and I'll, I'll talk about it in therapy. But that doesn't need to be on the podcast. And I think there's just like taking a little bit of a break and stepping back while there's really stressful stuff going on in the background. If you have the capacity to. It's important to do that. So.
So yeah, that was another tangent.
[00:52:36] Speaker B: And for me to. Tangent. Can I tangent off your tangent? Please do for again this is related but we're talking about like self. Self care. Right. And like well being. And one of the things that I found really interesting in terms of like witches is how it has become like basically a self care like trend. Right. So I suppose it's like a good thing in a way. And again it's like trying to promote like female empowerment, improvement and so on. But some of the things on there I think are just really funny and like absolutely ridiculous. So it's like looking up what some of them suggest and it literally says like read a book or look at the moon like as a way to like self improve. But I think it was like this kind of came up as almost like a bit of a revolt against like a cultural trend of like conformity and actually wanting to come back in Terms of like this more chaotic side of witches, which I think is kind of cool.
[00:53:35] Speaker A: I do love that embracing the chaotic because behind the kind of what a lot of women put out as their kind of face is a lot of chaos because we're human beings.
And just wanted to quickly point out that those are really silly in this modern day and age as ways to self improve. But if you think about it, reading a book and staring at the moon back in the day are actual things that could like really get you in trouble and labeled as a witch. And how crazy is that? Like we're like, oh, that is silly. That's so silly. Like why is like read a book. Like that's what we do for fun. But actually, you know, that could have been a really dangerous thing to do 400 years ago.
[00:54:19] Speaker B: That's mad, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah. Like now it seems almost like so simple and like, like I say that and I like laugh at it, but yeah, that could be, could be dangerous for sure. And that is crazy.
[00:54:33] Speaker A: I do like seeing this kind of like modern taking back of the idea of the witch. There's obviously, leave it to me, there's always also a negative other than just being silly as I feel like it's kind of been taken over by capitalism a little bit and which tends to ruin a lot of great concept. So now it's, you know, we need to kind of be careful with that aspect. So you know, exploiting people is, is very anti witch, it's very anti feminism. But it's the author of the book I talked about last week, Chalet, she basically said, look, there's like everything, there's a bit of a problem here because now that capitalism noticed that it exists, you know, there can be some problematic things happen and be less of a taken back black figure.
[00:55:18] Speaker B: But yeah, it's like why can't anything just be a good thing?
[00:55:21] Speaker A: Right?
[00:55:21] Speaker B: Like you've always got to come and ruin it for us.
[00:55:24] Speaker A: At least staring at the moon is free.
[00:55:27] Speaker B: Yeah, true. If we can see it amongst all the clouds.
[00:55:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
Anyway, but I mean you see that happen to a lot of movements that we support. So like Pride and stuff like that. There's been a lot of complaints about companies, you know, who basically just around Pride month will do. Oh, you'll get a deal if XYZ or you know, disc Pride discount and then the rest of the year they don't do shit for anyone. So you know, keeping in mind sticking with the like the ethos of what we're doing, that revolution, like you mentioned is, I think, really important. And I think it's just a revolution in becoming authentic. And so, despite all these really negative things that still impacts our society and our overall view towards women, we can see that lessening and lessening and lessening. And hopefully more and more women feel safe being authentic and that'll normalize that even more.
[00:56:26] Speaker B: Definitely. And I think it's, yeah, embracing that kind of uniqueness or everybody's uniqueness kind of, rather than. Yeah. Just conforming to that rulebook or whatever the rule book even is. But, yeah, embracing who you are and feeling empowered to do that. That we have a lot of barriers in society that perhaps stop us finding those pockets of space where we feel safe to be unique and authentic.
[00:56:56] Speaker A: And hopefully those spaces expand, you know, whether it's as you growing as a person or society improving, those spaces that you feel safe to be authentic expand and expand. I don't know why what you were just saying made me think of. I'm, like, a big fan of, like, Sailor Moon, and I told you to watch Scooby Doo and the Witch's Ghost. I don't think you've watched it yet. There's, like, a band on.
[00:57:18] Speaker B: Where can you watch it?
[00:57:20] Speaker A: Prime.
[00:57:21] Speaker B: It's on Prime. Okay.
[00:57:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:57:23] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:57:23] Speaker A: And so there's a character on there who's, like, dark hair, and she's like, a Wiccan and, like, really cool. And I don't know if this links to masking. And I didn't know this wasn't, like, a universal experience. But, like, say when I was a kid and I loved Sailor Moon and I would look at the show and I was like, I feel like I am Sailor Mars. She has dark hair. She is kind of, like, intense. She loves crows. She, you know, all these kind of cool things. But then, you know, when you were a kid and you would, like, play as. You know, you'd pretend to be somebody, like, as a thing. But I was like, I can't be her because I'm blonde. And people don't like Sailor Mars because she's a bit intense. So I need to be, like, Sailor Venus, who people like. And, like, I've recognized that this has happened so much throughout my life is that I was applying my masking to, like, even through to characters that I had nothing to do with. Like, watching the movie, I realized, oh, I thought I had to be the blonde drummer because F, X, Y, Z.
Yeah. And it's been really interesting. As I become more and more myself, I'm, like, evolving into these, like, characters I really, really loved, but was too afraid to relate to almost. So I don't know if that's too much of a tangent, but I don't really know if I'm getting my point across of basically, like, just watching this trajectory that I can very obviously see of being scared to be a certain kind of woman in a show and applying both the mask and that fear to that from such an early age.
[00:59:01] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So kind of recognizing, oh, I shouldn't be like that, but I should be more like kind of that. Now you're recognizing that, would you say you're kind of like, integrating some of those characters, like, in a sense, and kind of forming more of what you want to be or, like, how do you see it? I don't.
[00:59:21] Speaker A: I don't really see it necessarily as integrating the characters, like, into my personality. It was more just like.
Because. But that was happening when I was masking. I would, now that I reflect on it, take these mannerisms from different characters and people and all that and, like, to build this Persona. And now that I'm deconstructing it, I'm, like, looking back and I'm like, I remember a thought process when I was very, very, very young. Like, probably too early to have these kinds of thoughts where I went. I just don't understand, because I love Sailor Mars, but I need to be Sailor Venus.
[00:59:57] Speaker B: That's so interesting. I'm gonna go away now, and I'm actually gonna reflect on who I feel from, like, TV shows. Because we used to watch so much TV when I was younger. It was super. So I'm actually gonna reflect on who I feel like I was trying to take my cues from. Okay, I'm gonna do it and see what it is.
[01:00:16] Speaker A: Yes.
[01:00:16] Speaker B: I think I always had this thing around, like, trying to be cool, and I wonder where that came from. I don't know right now. We shall return next time to find out the answer.
[01:00:26] Speaker A: In the spirit of psychological safety, Laura will share what she has reflected on.
[01:00:31] Speaker B: But I do a deep dive, dive into my childhood self.
[01:00:35] Speaker A: Yep. So this is actually. The next session is just going to be Laura's therapy session with me. Yeah, I'm self appointing myself.
[01:00:42] Speaker B: Thank you.
[01:00:44] Speaker A: But I guess to end on a more positive note, like, while talking about what happened in the past and how it still impacts us now, it can be quite stressful and upsetting. The symbol of the witch is starting to be kind of reclaimed as that symbol of women's resistance to patriarchy and also becoming more authentic. So in contemporary feminist thought, the witch has become a symbol of defiance and independence and power. So it. It's cool to see that aspect from a more positive. We're seeing cooler, more nuanced depictions of witches in the media. We're seeing lots of women get on board saying, you know, oh, I've formed a covenant. And even if it's just women, even if it's just, like, silly, like, you literally have a group of friends, you know, obviously there are. There are people who do properly identify as witches and do have proper covens. But I'm talking about, like, on that lesser scale of, like, oh, we have a covenant and it's just like the three of us, we feel like one, but because that gathering of women used to be. So Even until the 1900s, it used to be punishable. So even that itself is reclaiming a bit of that. So, yeah, it is good to see what direction we're headed.
[01:01:52] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. And I suppose perhaps there is one, I guess, maybe slightly more like, positive note, is a good place for us to. To end. And I guess I think for me, like, from this, I think what has, I suppose what stood out for me the most is probably more around this idea of, like, uniqueness and women kind of being more empowered. But I think it's also interesting, Kristen, when you're bringing in actually how the symbolism and the portrayal of witches is still impacting society in quite serious ways, like, in terms of kind of politics and so on, which is something that I have never really considered before. So I think that's something that I'll. I'll take away and probably cry about later on. No, no, I'll be fine.
[01:02:43] Speaker A: As you're, like, trying to figure out what TV character you looked up to and you're just crying. Exactly.
[01:02:49] Speaker B: Perfect.
[01:02:50] Speaker A: I think I didn't really expect us to. You know, obviously we have a certain kind of, like, idea of what we're going to talk to talk about, but I didn't really expect it to go down the route so much about authenticity and the importance of that and the fact that we're getting safer and safer environments to do that in. So that was quite cool and it made me feel a little bit better.
[01:03:13] Speaker B: Yay.
[01:03:13] Speaker A: So like we said, next week we're going to be. Or not next week, but the week after. So give us a couple weeks. Weeks.
And we're going to be talking about psychological safety. So thank you all for listening. As usual, we probably have way more questions than we have answered, but I really enjoyed. I guess, I don't know. Did you. I really enjoyed exploring witches past and present.
Did I? Yeah, yeah.
[01:03:37] Speaker B: You're asking them like, laura, did you enjoy it?
[01:03:43] Speaker A: And you guys, did you enjoy it?
[01:03:46] Speaker B: You enjoy it, too.
[01:03:49] Speaker A: The main thing also we want to know is, did this leave you guys with any questions? We would love comments to kind of hear if this left you with any questions or any kind of realizations. And we'd also really like to know if you have any topics that you want us to explore. So please get in touch through the comments on, you know, YouTube, Spotify, et cetera, et cetera. And please make sure to like to follow, engage however your platform allows because it really helps us with the algorithm finding other people who might be interested in this content. And of course, tell your friends you can find us on various social media platforms. The link is in our Instagram bio for but why? But we'll also put it in the description on here. So.
[01:04:33] Speaker B: That'S it. That's the end. That's it.
[01:04:35] Speaker A: That's it. Thanks everyone.
[01:04:37] Speaker B: Thanks everyone. Bye bye.
[01:04:46] Speaker A: Sa.
