Unpacking Myths of Performance and Women's Stories in Sport

[00:00:16] Speaker A: Welcome to the but why Podcast, where we explore the human experience through a psychological lens by asking but why? I'm Dr. Kristen. [00:00:24] Speaker B: And I'm Dr. Laura. And. And today we're exploring myths of performance and stories of women in sport. [00:00:32] Speaker C: Yes. [00:00:32] Speaker A: And to kick off our year, even though we're recording this at the end of 2024, this is our first episode of 2025. So to kick the year off, we have two amazing guests. We have Dr. Amy Whitehead and Jenny Cote, and this is our first time with guests. So hopefully we're relatively organized and relatively not too tangential. But these are the perfect and most interesting first guests we could have who have a great wide range and kind of like interesting expertise in sport and performance. And they're also amazing advocates for equity, diversity and inclusion in all sporting environments and beyond. They've collaborated on a number of books and other projects, and we're going to be talking about two of them today. So to kick things off, would you guys mind to telling us a bit about yourselves? Who wants to start? [00:01:25] Speaker C: So Jen got married and it. Well, she has. She's got two identities. One is Jenny Cordy and one is Jenny Koh. [00:01:32] Speaker D: So. [00:01:32] Speaker C: Go on, Jenny. [00:01:33] Speaker D: It's only taken me a year and a half to switch over my surname. My bank accounts are still in my other name. [00:01:40] Speaker A: You know what? I. I haven't even changed my name from McGinty to minister in the States. So I also have multiple identities. [00:01:47] Speaker D: I feel at home. I feel at home. I think what. That's an intro. All those little bits and pieces that I. And we are doing. The books definitely are. They have been a really exciting parallel to the work that I've been doing on the ground. So seeing them evolve or getting kind of underway in the first part of the MIT of sports coaching and then all the webinar series and stuff. So, yeah, that's. It's nice to be here talking to you guys about them today. And the other pieces, I suppose, are just like working across a whole span of grassroots to elite and professional sports and the common threads that we see that appear in the books, that appear in our daily conversations that we'll share today, and that different hats that I would have had as a player, a coach, coach, developer, sports psychology practice, and an analyst in there as well. So I feel fortunate that I've had the opportunity to do all those things. But with that has come experiences that have been really positive and some not so positive that hopefully I can influence in my current role with the women's pro game, which Is the performance well being lead. [00:02:57] Speaker A: Awesome. Thanks for that. [00:02:59] Speaker C: Jen's being very humble. [00:03:00] Speaker A: I know. I was like, I'm sure there's a lot more that I like, you can share about that, but I don't want to force you to. So. [00:03:10] Speaker C: I'm sure we'll give her a prod throughout the podcast. [00:03:12] Speaker A: Yes, definitely. [00:03:15] Speaker C: Yes. I'm a. We call it a reader in the uk. People are like, what does that even mean? So our associate professor in sports psychology and coaching at Liverpool, John Morris University. I'm also a sport and exercise psychologist supervisor. So Jen and I met like, maybe like, I'm going to say like 10 years ago. I'm just kind of guessing there, Jen. But we met through our coach development work. So Jen was a coach developer at UK Coaching and I do a lot of work with coaches, so. But to promote reflective practice. So I was doing a CPD session with UK Coaching and that was the beginning of our beautiful friendship. Here we are now. [00:04:00] Speaker D: Yeah, it was. And you know what the hook was? Sorry, just sidetracking the whole intro section. Do you know, the appeal was the fact that at the time it was one of the only pieces of work that was thinking and talking about reflective practice and that was practical in nature, in the delivery. So it's really engaging and helpful and people were like, invested in their own development from what you had facilitated that day, as well as, you know, bringing the research to life. So I think that's a tread that still comes through our books, you know, 10 years later on how can we make the language accessible, the practical guidance or top tips or whatever way it's framed by different, different authors in each chapter. But yeah, yeah. What a cool journey we've been on, eh? Yeah. [00:04:43] Speaker C: And I guess for your listeners, I gotta mention you two because, like, we, we work together too. I feel like I'm on. I'm on a pod right now with like my favourite people. [00:04:53] Speaker A: Yeah, same. [00:04:55] Speaker B: I think we've already mentioned you, Amy, a couple of times on the podcast. So for those who have listened to other episodes and we randomly mention Amy. This is the Amy. [00:05:05] Speaker A: This is the Amy. [00:05:09] Speaker D: She's here. She's here. [00:05:13] Speaker A: It's interesting you brought up the reflection aspect because we talk about that all the time on the pod because, you know, we're not just talking about sport, we're talking about a range of topics and we always try to make, you know, our listeners reflect on things and like you said, make it as accessible as possible. And I think that it's not necessarily something that most people do in their daily lives unless they actually are. Are prompted to do that. So I was just wondering, sorry to put you on the spot. Any, like main hot tips about reflection that you might have for anyone of our listeners? [00:05:50] Speaker D: I mean, go to the guru first, but I'm happy to contribute after she says everything. I'm not going after her. [00:05:58] Speaker C: So we are so like, I have to like check myself sometimes because we. I was having this conversation yesterday with one of our PhD students, Maxine, and she's now in the academia world. She's come from kind of more an applied world and she was like, I'm constantly like, I'm really getting to know myself so much more because I'm like, through the research and through my practice, I'm always like, I'm being forced to question who I am as a person and how that links to everything I do. And it really made me think that, like we are so fortunate because we're almost in this bubble where we're challenging each other on a daily basis. And sports, we all work in sports psychology, so that's part of our job. So I do sometimes take it for granted that, you know, we have these deep conversations about like, oh, I was brought like me and Laura yesterday was talking about social class. [00:06:54] Speaker D: Oh yeah. [00:06:54] Speaker C: I'm from a very working class background and I think like, so I have to make a point of that because I'm like, I'm working class and you know, look at how like I'm now in a middle class world and we, like me and Laura unpicked that a little bit. [00:07:09] Speaker A: Oh, I want to hear more about this conversation. [00:07:12] Speaker C: Well, in terms of advice, I think the one question that I always ask people to ask themselves is like, who am I? And it makes people be really uncomfortable. I think I asked in a VIVA in a Prof. Doc the other day, like, who, who is, you know, who is Jen or who is Kristen? Who is Laura? [00:07:33] Speaker A: Stressful question to ask that person in a vi. [00:07:37] Speaker D: Sorry while, while they have an existential crisis and try and defend their viva. Nice. [00:07:43] Speaker A: So for anyone who's listening, who doesn't know, a viva is when you're defending your PhD thesis or your doctorate work or whatever like that, just for a bit of context for people who aren't in our like we say bubble, but oh my God, Amy, giving them an existential crisis. [00:07:57] Speaker C: Like Jen said, it's a professional doctorate VIVA and it's a person training to be a sports psychologist. And we, we ask that question all the time. Like, who am I as a practitioner and how does that align with who am I as a person? But yeah, when the words are coming out my mouth, I thought, oh, you're being a bit shady there. But like, but that's the same question I ask the coaches that I work with. And it really, like, makes them think because I don't think they ever connect themselves as a person with themselves as a coach. And, you know, throughout all the work that we do, it's about how we align our values, how we be authentic. And sometimes people live in these very different bubbles of work, social, you know, family, which is great and really works for some people. But then it's about how do we align some of our values and to be happier and healthier as people. So I don't know if I've answered. [00:08:57] Speaker A: Your question, but no, I think that's a really good initial question to even just get the ball rolling for things. I think that's actually a really good addition to our first episode about identity and sense of self. Kind of. We got a lot of comments about it just because people don't really think about that. And I think that really adds itself to almost supplement that episode of like, okay, who am I? What's my identity that I'm performing? What's my sense of self? Who am I at that deeper values based level? [00:09:31] Speaker D: Where do I go with that? Do Bridget into something, please? [00:09:36] Speaker C: If I was to ask like a family member that question, for example, I think they'd like, really struggle. But I think it's a starting question. Even if they don't have an answer right there and then, hopefully they can ruminate and think about it a little bit more over time. [00:09:56] Speaker B: It just reminds me of again, Kristen, like that first identity episode we spoke about, and we spoke about how you have a bit of a performance identity. And I. And I feel like that's the sort of identity that people might talk about initially. So, like, you know, Amy, like, you're a triathlete or like, you love bikes, so you might talk about like, can I say bike or bicycles? I like bike. [00:10:24] Speaker D: I like many bike. [00:10:26] Speaker A: I am surrounded by bike. [00:10:30] Speaker C: Literally. [00:10:31] Speaker A: But I feel like these are the. [00:10:33] Speaker B: Things that we might think about initially. And then there's that kind of deeper part where you mentioned, like, the values and like the beliefs and actually if I'm not kind of constrained by, say, society and the kind of norms, who actually am I, like, underneath all of that? [00:10:50] Speaker C: Yeah, because we are in a world where people. It's performance. So then. So especially coaches that we work with, they get a bit scared of these Questions because they're like, well, what's this got to do with my coaching? But my answer to that is, well, how does who you are appear in the actual activity of coaching? So in terms of the feedback that you give or how you treat people or the design of your sessions, because all of that is underpinned by who you are and how you've developed as an individual. And it's the same as how we practice as a psychologist or how we teach as a lecturer, or how Jen, you know, does her. Why does Jen care so deeply about the well being of footballers? And it'll definitely be because of who she is, how she's been brought up and there's a reason she's in the job. She is. [00:11:45] Speaker A: Is that a question you want to answer? Jen just chucked at you like, it's. [00:11:49] Speaker D: The badge, it's the badge, just the badge. I'm in it for the badge, I'm in it for the stash, the kit. Yes, that's a good question. I think I have to be in the right space to answer those kind of questions. I've got to have the right people around me. I do visit them or variations of them on a regular basis and they're really useful tools for development or perspective or keeping me present and grounded. But if I don't do it on the right day, it's a long walk with the dog until I find some answer. But if I go back, if I go back to the question, my answer is a bit more simplistic in the surface or maybe more of headline kind of the W's and the H. And I found this from all the, the say, communities of practice, one to ones mentoring around this topic with coaches over the years, they very rarely stop and ask themselves like, why am I doing this? [00:12:48] Speaker A: But why? [00:12:49] Speaker D: Yeah, but why am I doing this? But where am I doing. So where are they doing it, when are they doing it and how are they doing it? Etc, etc. So those kind of things have been really good vehicles or those words have been really good questions have been really good vehicles for conversation for them to realize that they've got into a habit. They only reflect after competition or loss or failure, perceived failure. They're usually doing it on their own so their flexivity piece doesn't come into it because, I don't know, maybe they're not vulnerable or they haven't been encouraged to do that or they haven't been in a good space. I won't even say necessarily safe in the first, instead just a space that's Facilitated really well for them to kind of scratch the surface to get into a deeper level of, of sharing and then the safety building and vulnerability around that. So that's where I went when you asked that question. And that's what's come back over the years from different coaches. Gosh, I'm only doing it here. I'm only doing it. It's sitting in the car having a think to myself. And I think there's, there's a whole other, you know, world there of the layers of thinking beyond the superficial wash into a more productive outcome. So, yeah, I think that's where my mind went on that. [00:14:05] Speaker A: I think that's so interesting because that's definitely not something we've addressed on here. You know, we give people reflective questions at the end. We try to, you know, encourage self awareness, but we've not really even mentioned how the environment can really facilitate that reflection. So like you said, if it's a bad day, maybe let's not reflect on XYZ because it might turn into rumination or, you know, just letting people know that it's actually possible to reflect in a group setting. There's, you know, reflecting on your own in your car is one thing, but if you're bouncing ideas off of somebody, you know, in a really structured or productive way, that's also a form of reflection. So I think that's a really good thing to introduce to people as well. So do you have any thoughts, Laura? [00:14:49] Speaker B: Did I have any thoughts? No, I think just that it's interesting, I suppose. Yes, you can ask questions, but it is somewhat like what, like I say, what we do with them. And if, yeah, people are in kind of the right space to be considering those things. And I think as well that it's very much like a skill. Right. Like it's a skill that we really have to kind of build. And it can be difficult if you're, you know, in a silo and reflecting on your own. But I think having like, even for kind of us, like speaking together and reflecting on these things with one another really helps to kind of bounce those ideas around and to gain like a deeper understanding. [00:15:30] Speaker A: Awesome. Does that count as our small talk, Laura? [00:15:34] Speaker B: I think that does. That's why I was just going to seamlessly move in. [00:15:39] Speaker A: One of us always ruins the seamless transition. [00:15:42] Speaker D: Yeah, we're not very seamless. Should we? Sweet people. [00:15:46] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:15:48] Speaker B: So I guess kind of, well off the back of that then if we have a little bit of a think of about kind of myths of sport performance. So this is the Title of Amy and Jen's books or one of their many books. [00:16:01] Speaker C: There we go. [00:16:01] Speaker B: I have it as well. [00:16:03] Speaker D: Look at it. So pass it across the screen, Kristen, you can have it. [00:16:11] Speaker B: So this book came out in 2024 and before we go into a bit of a discussion around kind of what. What drove kind of your. Yeah, your kind of motivation for writing this book or editing this book. I'll just give a quick like synopsis. So. So the synopsis is. So sport performance is a complex, highly studied, highly debated and often controversial mixture of theories, opinions and evidence. So this book aims to demystify some of the most pervasive myths, misconceptions and realities surrounding the how, what and why of improving sport performance in sport. So guys, what kind of drove you to. Yeah, want to put this book together? [00:16:56] Speaker C: So Mrs. Spot Performance is a second book and Mrs. Spot Coaching was first. So I guess to give you the reason why for Mrs. Spot performance, I should take you back to Mr. Spot coaching. And I guess this is. Mr. Spot coaching was a product of Jen and I working together in coach development. Jen very much. I see Jen as my on the ground person working, you know, in the thick of it with coaches with mdts in the sporting performance world. I am in that a little bit, but I'd say I'm more in academia. For me and Jen might have a slightly different kind of motivation for the books was how do we take all this stuff that we know in academia and we make it really translatable to as many people, coaches, people working as far as possible. Because that maybe it's my insecurity in my own little hang up, but sometimes I see that there's this big disconnect between academia and practice on the ground and there shouldn't be. Like our job in academia should be about translating knowledge and I think that gets missed. So for me that was a big motivation. And Jen and I are seeing these myths crop up. Jen even more so working with national governing bodies, people designing coach education, people working in different contexts. So that was a big reason. So Mrs. Spot Performance came about because there was, there's so many more myths for us to bust and what we, you'll see even in Mrs. Sport coaching, it's not just about coaching. Like I had physiotherapists get in touch with me, athletes get in touch with me, people from outside of coaching be like, these myths are really relevant to my field. And so that's kind of why we broadened it to sport performance. [00:19:07] Speaker B: And were there maybe Jen, like obviously with your Experience kind of on the ground. Were there any myths that kind of resonated with you the most that you'd kind of experienced in your own work that was in the book? [00:19:22] Speaker D: Yeah, good question. Yes. And there's kind of an additional addition to the first book to lead to the answer in the second was that by the time we got to kind of gathering our subject matter experts and authors and the interest, the commercialization of some of these ideas and the, the sticky hook or the influential people who had slightly misread or skewed the research for their own benefit meant that actually we, we could have actually taken some of the original myths or so the myths of sports coaching ones and brought them back in again. So there was loads of stuff, loads ones more obvious ones from the, the first book that people were like, yeah, I get it, I can now challenge upwards, use it for a vehicle for conversation, etc. Etc. And then coming to these ones, we were like, do we go vastly different or do we top up on some of the other ones? How do we keep. How do we keep the language accessible? But we're going broader and actually some of the like disciplines might like the more nitty gritty academic read they might be. They might relate to it. And I do agree, I do agree mostly with the comment that Amy made about academics should try and translate, but I also think there's a laziness and a little bit, I don't know if entitlement is the right word, but there's a laziness coming in with the access to anytime, anywhere, learning through TikToks and podcasts, and people going, ah, I listen to a podcast, therefore it is. And you're like, oh, okay, well, have you thought about. [00:20:55] Speaker A: Don't even get me started on that. [00:20:56] Speaker D: Yes, sorry, that's the second podcast we need to record separately. Right. So there's, there's something about not saying that this book is the only way and the amazing correct answers in everything, and we're not trying to turn people's worlds upside down. But it was just, you know, the contribution from the webinars of people saying, oh, you never did one on leadership. Oh, have you thought about this? Have you thought about that? Oh, what's chapter, Chapter seven? The myth that being a good mother and an elite athlete are not compatible. Totally relevant to my world at the moment, where we're bringing pregnancy guidelines in and a whole host of postnatal support for the various disciplines within the medical setting for the women's football. So there's topics that were relevant and prevalent now, there was interest from others, but there's also something about the reach of people. So the great people, there's, I don't think there's one, two, maybe four chapters who are written by people on their own. Five. And the rest have two, three. So we're like 40 plus authors contributed to this book. So across two books, you've got the bones of 70 people who are deeply passionate about an area, excited to contribute. You guys know from the contribution in the first chapter, a great exercise to get the best of all these brains and the latest research and debunking or reaffirming or building on these topics to have something for people to go to that they can check and challenge the norms of whatever's flicking through Instagram. And I'm not saying that in an ignorant way that that's how coaches are learning solely, but it's a heavy, it's an unavoidable now, you know, you're being, your, your time is being marketed by the, the click in the second. So that's a long way around. And I, I know I still haven't fully answered it, but there's, I think there's some meatier chapters in this book. There's some ones that have longer titles that maybe have topics because we're reaching across many disciplines. We have people who are thinking about, you know, there's some more generic titles like the leadership one, there's one on sleep that people will be go straight away, oh, yeah, okay, I know those topics. I'll dive into those. But there's, I think there's some brilliant nuance ones in there as well. And there's ones that are really specific that you go, oh, I never thought about that. Or Alex's chapter on smoke and mirrors. Little bit of the challenge where we're saying, yes, women have, you know, a place in sport and they're doing this and she's saying, oh, do they? She's highlighting some stats and ruffling some feathers there and giving us the stats, not just her own subjective view. So, yeah, there's, there's a load of different chapters in there by, as I said, like 40 plus people on a global reach. We're not just staying in the UK that really help people go, you've heard this, you've thought about this, you've asked the questions that we've talked about unreflective reflective practice. So where are you with this now? [00:23:52] Speaker A: There's so much to unpack there. [00:23:56] Speaker D: Sorry. [00:23:59] Speaker C: When I made the comment about connecting like research with people on the ground. What I don't want that to be misinterpreted is we aren't dumbing it down because Jen's right. Like, we need to encourage. No, we want people to read this stuff, but it's more about making it just more accessible because we do this research, it's stuck behind a paywall half the time in academia, coaches, psychologists, people that we want to read this work can't actually access it. So, like, as Jen said, we can bring all of this work and we can put it in one place and make it like, this is another book bear of mine. Like, you see academic textbooks, and they're £150. How are we expecting people to read it? I wouldn't buy it. So a big thing for us is about making it accessible and affordable, which we've. [00:24:55] Speaker D: We have. Sorry, Christian. I was gonna say, like, Amy and I have had, like, I don't think we've ever had heated. Heated debates because we're. We're good communicators and we respect each other, but we've definitely challenged each other when we've read through the chapter. So we read through a chapter, we read through and read through it again. We then divvy off over another kind of editor iteration where I'd say, amy, I just don't know if this is gonna land. Like, they've opened up in real thick, heavy academic language there. Just. I'm not. I'm not hooked on the first few lines. And she'll say, yeah, but this. And that's important to frame that. So even I'm learning. And she's learning through the perspective of what we assume. The people on the ground that we've spoken to or the people in academia who are doing these steps of research, trying to find that, you know, nice mismatch there, or messy piece that kind of. [00:25:43] Speaker A: That makes me laugh. And it's a good point. And this isn't what, like, I want to, like, unpick, but it makes me laugh because I don't know if it's like, my autism, but my writing can be so, like, I don't know, upfront academic. And sometimes I have to use chat GP to make it sound more human. [00:26:01] Speaker D: Oh, wicked. [00:26:02] Speaker A: Yes. [00:26:03] Speaker D: That's amazing. [00:26:03] Speaker C: And I. [00:26:04] Speaker A: So I have to use a computer to make me sound more personable when I'm doing, like, book chapters instead of, like, articles. So I just thought it was so funny. I told my. My mom that, and she's like, wait, you have to use a computer to make you sound more human? This should not surprise you at all. But there's so many things to unpack there. So firstly, going to kind of that easy access to information me and Laura have talked about loads of times. It's a big point of frustration for me, I think with the way the world has gone in terms of lack of critical thinking and lack of critical thinking training for more just like the general population, leading to a lot of the problems we have at the moment. And a lot of that is access to this easy information that is just fake information. And so I think that's. But that's also made worse by like you mentioned, Amy, the paywall that a lot of this academic work is behind. So for those of you who don't know these, you know, a lot of the book companies really rack up their book prices because they're going to be bought by universities. And also every article that we write and we submit to a journal is what about like $30, something like that to buy if you're not with an institution that has access to it. So the access to all this research that people are doing is behind a paywall that I wouldn't if I weren't part of, you know, a university. I'm not paying 30 bucks per per article. So I think that, and this is why it's like amazing to have you guys on because it's so congruent with what we're trying to do is make information more accessible and relatable to people. So that's just something I wanted to say is just like just pointing out how important it is to get all this information out there written by various different people in ways that you guys think will be best used on the ground. So I don't know if you want to. I've got a couple other things I want to dig into what you said, but I'll give you guys some space to chat if you, if you want instead of taking over everything. [00:28:06] Speaker C: So going back to the social media and quick, quick information. This is something I spoke recently about with, with someone because and we ran a nutrition public seminar last night we with the Giant star and that that this was a big topic as well because nutrition is this full of myths like don't eat sugar, don't eat too many carbohydrates, have a high protein diet. And I do think like Instagram or other social media platforms plays a huge role in creating these myths. Especially when again like why I have to check myself. I have access to a nutritionist and a biomechanist and a physiologist. But I met with, I spoke to someone this morning who was interested in a certain type of diet. And in the back of my head I'm thinking maybe that's not the right thing to do. But it's not her fault. She hasn't got direct access to all of these things. So I think that's why we created the book. But what I would be, I'd be against like if someone said to me, can you create me a 60 second, not even 60 seconds. That's too long for Instagram, isn't it? Like 10 seconds, like post about each one of these chapters. I said no, because you need to get into the meat of it. You need to know the history of it. I think that's a lot of these chapters. And I will say There is a YouTube link where you can listen to an overview of the chapters from the chapter authors. But we're not doing these topic areas justice if we're, you know, there was an article recently about was it some different seed oils that cause cancer? And actually so that that's become really big. And one of my nutrition colleagues under read the paper where that come from. It doesn't even say that. Like one of the big papers have taken that, misinterpreted it, posted it on in the headline newspaper and now half the world thinks that they shouldn't have seed oil. So that is a prime example of how these myths come about. [00:30:22] Speaker D: Bringing it back to some of the stuff in the first book and definitely some of the stuff that we're. Some of the chapters in the second book. There's a really good example of firstly the only the 10,000 hours and how that unraveled over time and how people latched onto different parts that were useful or the learning styles piece. But there's also something in key influencers on podcasts now just bringing people in or themselves doing something and because they're sharing it, everybody's latched onto that. And then those people have a bit of a platform so they're releasing a book and then you go, must buy the book. And I mean I'm on regular weekly conversations with people who are saying, oh, I did this and I'm doing that and I'm going there. Or when Even on a real simple example, when small sided games came out, people, you know, people were like, oh yeah, it was small sided games. Now I was in, I used to work across a number of different schools in London at the time. And I was hearing this, I was hearing the teachers say, oh, just play games. So then you literally had the literal translation with we either for, for whatever reason, lack of support or education or whatever. It was just doing that in the, in the PE sessions, in the after school sessions. And I was working with the senior leaders at the time in the school to try and develop this whole curriculum. And I thought to myself, gosh, this is really interesting. I wonder how this is going to evolve because that's not what was meant. But you know, then you look at some of the. I was fortunate enough then to be working across a couple of different Olympic sports who had seen, five or six years later, the under 16s had come in from environments that had been practicing this just play. And there was, there was a complete different caliber or lack of skill or lack of some lacking in certain areas that they'd noticed as international coaches from club coaches, just not able to process and interpret this, this term. And I can, you know, can, can unravel. [00:32:21] Speaker A: So that's, that's so interesting. It's like a game of telephone. And you know, you guys have that here, right? In the uk. I'm not like throwing some random. [00:32:29] Speaker B: I'm not sure what that means. [00:32:31] Speaker A: It's like when you, you didn't like in school, you would all get in a circle and then one person would whisper something into that person's ear and then by the time it got back to that same person, it would be like a completely different sentence. And it just like feels like that to me. Like, here's what's meant by whoever has this expertise. And then it gets filtered through various social media sites or types of interpretations. And then these interpretations can be wrong, you know, almost on purpose sometimes for people's gain or just, just lack of understanding. And, and that's no one's fault. But it gets spread so fast and it's like a global game of telephone. That's just really frustrating to deal with on the ground. So that's, that's crazy that you noticed such a difference from this, I guess, game of telephone. And then something else. I just wanted to. That's still stuck in my head since you said it. Did you say they're just bringing in pregnancy guidelines for completely tangential change? But it's been stuck in my head. They're just bringing in pregnancy guidelines for women's football. [00:33:38] Speaker D: Yeah, we're actually kind of world leading on it. [00:33:41] Speaker A: That's amazing. That's firstly amazing that you're world leading, but crazy that we're recording this in 2024. That that's world leading. And I'm so glad that you're doing that. So would you provide a little bit of context for about the league and what you guys are doing and yeah. [00:33:56] Speaker D: So any tangents so about oh, what's that span? Let's say it's you know a few years, four or five years. There was a big exercise done on just understanding the landscape around female athlete health in general and then there was some really key areas as we're all probably really familiar with that are probably part of more regular conversations and we then started to support around education. So there's a course called Football her that all clubs have access to a number of different licenses to understand key areas like pelvic health, menstrual cycle, key areas around female athlete health. And then every club in the women's super league and championship have a female athlete health lead who has gone on a course with the well HQ and with the women's pro league or professional leagues. So the kind of partnership to create a bespoke strategy support system wrap around that they can then ripple into the environment and that plays a key part in my role around the wider performance well being as a physical well being piece and there's and there's more work being done around red S endometriosis sleep that contributes but it was a really valuable initially really valuable and eye opening piece of work. That said, hey, do you know that this is possibly happening? We don't have a lot of players who are having. Having children and returning or even confidently able to have this conversation with the club. And at the time it was because each club is its kind of own entity as well. You're kind of saying well listen, you can come to us for a little bit of guidance but how are you running it? And it's now formalized into here is a really robust. Gosh, how many pages in is it? 50? It's anyway 26 or 50. I'll have to. I'll have a quick look at it. There's been so many iterations of it but it's a really robust document. There's also a number of other ones that have been produced this year that just say from start to finish, pre and post natal. This is what you should consider. This is from a multidisciplinary perspective bringing in the sports psychs, how we might build on kind of the government and societal pieces around just maternity in general and what's. What does the layer of performance add to this? And you know I had the fortune of being part of a club that were so open to this conversation, so supportive that you Know two of the players when I was in post were able to have a conversation, go and have a baby, have, have the experience of being pregnant in whatever country that worked for them, stay connected with the team because it was a WHO plan and then return and come back into the team and next had a second baby. And so that's happened again. And there's, you know, clubs now speaking to each other, there's players feeling more confident to have this conversation, there's facility, guidance in there that says this is what you should have if you're breastfeeding, etc. Etc. There was a meeting we had the other day with a club who have a player returning, who has spoken to their sponsor and the sponsor is making bespoke gear so that there's a mechanism in the tops for her to breastfeed and still be on brand. So there's, there's a whole load of different things happening, some more structured and around the kind of physiological needs and considerations. There's a whole psychological piece around the language and behaviors associating and the kind of return to play, return to return to play as a mother, a new mother, you know, whatever the case may be. And then there's more work linked to the FA being done on same sex couples journey so that there, if you are the partner of, or that there is a whole host of experiences that that mother might go through on a journey that they would, that everybody in the environment within reason and acceptance would understand that this isn't the same as a kind of heterosexual couple and what they might go through and not saying that one is more important than the other, but there's, there's different needs. So there's. Yeah, there's a really robust document that's we're really proud of, but it is something that players and practitioners can be more informed to support kind of the growth of that environment and you know, and needed. [00:38:25] Speaker A: You know what? That just made me so happy to hear all the details of it. It links into some of the research that Laura, Amy and I have done on the sexism. I mean we did it on people working sport. But like you said, lack of kit facilities that are very specific to women, you know, often go unmet. And obviously this is happening recently because of the structural barriers in place that you, you couldn't even put this in place for women potentially, you know, five, 10 years ago. So it's amazing you guys are able to do this. But I guess it almost points to your chapter on the smoke and mirrors. Like we think that women in sport are so, you know, you know, equal and stuff like that. But women are just now getting pregnancy protections and. And kit that maybe facilitates breastfeeding and more. More understanding of, you know, various types of needs. So I think it just all, like all these myths chapters fit so well into what's actually happening, like on the ground, like what you guys are saying. [00:39:25] Speaker D: Yeah, just a nutsh after Amy definitely let you come in. Then the, the extra layer, I think of richness in Alex's chapter is that Alex is based in Australia. And so there's a whole, like, she started writing the chapter post World cup where they hosted, obviously. So there is something around the. Not just the topics and kind of subheadings that are covered in there, but the perspective of. We saw big numbers, we saw a massive shift in following. We saw societ and equitable changes, hopefully an influence happening, but actually what's underneath it and how long is that? You know, what's the sustainability piece around that? And, you know, is it a tiny move and should we be grateful or actually, you know, and wait our turn for more to happen? So, yeah, it's just, it's really nice, really refreshing. [00:40:19] Speaker C: The problem is that we are seeing, like, things starting to happen, but it doesn't mean, you know, there's. That we're equal others this. And I think that's the misconception, isn't it, that like, people will say, and I've even said it, oh, have you seen how many, like, fans we're getting now for, like, the Women's Super League and, you know, Arsenal are playing in the main, like, stadium. Yeah, that's great. But that's like one or two examples. But the, you know, the, the revenue and the tick, like, the financial input is still crazy. I don't know if you guys watched what was. I think it was the Hope solo documentary on Netflix. If you haven't seen it, it's amazing. So she was really, I don't know, like, I'm only going off what, what she was saying in the, in the program. But she, she was talking about how she got shunned from the women's game in America because she was trying to challenge. Because even though the women's team were generating much more money, like millions and millions of more money than the men, the men, the investment in the men's game was through the roof compared to how much the women got paid and supported. And if you look at soccer in America, women are absolutely outperforming the men, yet the men were still getting way more money and investment so that for me is a really good example of, yeah, like, visually that sport women are getting, you know, doing well, getting loads of fans, fan support, but underneath that it's very, very unequal. And I think so I guess that's the point. And Kristen, I always think back to when you and I delivered a session for our master's students around sexism and working in sport and the like, lovely, really like kind of open minded males in the room. And I put the hand up and said, but this isn't an issue anymore because women look at women's football and you're like, well, yeah, look at it. It's developing, but it's, it's nowhere near the same level as, as the men in terms of support and like, you know, TV time and finances and funding and everything else. [00:42:43] Speaker A: And that brings up two things for me, like that example. So number one, yeah, it's important to acknowledge how far you've come, but without saying, okay, we can stop now, you know, I'll get, you know, people of a certain generation, like, you guys should just be happy because it was so much worse for us. Like, no, that's not what progress is about. And then number two, with that example, these, these questions and comments came after an hour of us presenting like data from over 100 women telling them that it was still happening. And so I think that like, obviously that cognitive dissonance between learning that this is still happening and then understanding that it's still happening is still huge, especially for men who like, see what they want. It's almost like that confirmation bias. Like I see that what, you know, this is what sort I'm looking for. There's always one word I can't figure out that I'm trying to say in the podcast. It's more convenient. It's more convenient for me to, to see that there's this progress because it's too uncomfortable to address the truth of what actually is happening and then there's just not access to that information as well. So. [00:43:55] Speaker B: Yeah, and it sounds like this is something that like the book is really good at doing. It is kind of really digging into those, the nuances, but then also what might be a little bit uncomfortable for people to actually look at and realize and challenging those beliefs. [00:44:14] Speaker C: Can I tell you a story? I had the weekend with my dad. [00:44:18] Speaker A: Please do. [00:44:22] Speaker C: Where I'm from, they had a lot of work in men's clubs, so women were not allowed. And it was probably only till very recently that women are allowed. And so in these clubs they had snooka like rooms. And again, women were not allowed in the snooker rooms. So my wife was like, like she couldn't, she was, her mom was blown because she was like what, what is a working man's club there? And he's like, well you know, it's a club that only men can access because you know when a man's gonna hard days work, he needs a space to go blah, blah, blah. And she's like, but what would happen if a woman entered that space? Like she was like just come get her head around. And then so anyway, but he's like, well Michelle, there's no problem anymore because women, women are allowed in there now. Like so that's it, problem solved. [00:45:10] Speaker A: Oh my gosh. [00:45:12] Speaker C: Problem problem solved, problem over. And I think that is just a perfect example of where like you were saying, because women are now have, like they think that just allowing, giving access is. It solved all the issues and we should be happy that we've now got access. [00:45:31] Speaker A: And like that's such a good example because like a month ago it was the 50 year anniversary of women being allowed to get bank accounts. I can't remember if it was the states or the U.S. and so you think, okay, well women are allowed to have bank accounts now. Problem solved. Like same idea. But then we're actually seeing that first generational impact of what the long term impact of women not having it looks like. And so that, you know, looks like things like divorce rates going up because women have freedom to leave unhappy or bad marriages, like less kids, things like that because women are allowed to work and don't. There's no cover for maternity in a lot of places. And so I almost, it makes me wonder like what the longer term impacts of just like that club alone. What would have, what would, what smaller changes in people's lives locally would that have made if you know, women were allowed in after work as well, wonder why. [00:46:28] Speaker C: And then he'll make a comment that men are better at snooker than women, for example. And also but women are only allowed to practice like X number of years ago. So women of your age have had half as much practice as you. And then he'll go, oh okay, all right. [00:46:45] Speaker A: At least he does that. This might, this might be a good time to almost transition into the women's stories book. Unless you guys have anything more specific that you want to talk about for the myths book before we move on, was there anything we didn't touch on? Okay, cool. We tend to go on tangents and then lose track of time. So I want to make sure that we're fitting everything in. This book sounds awesome. It's called Women Working in See Them, Hear Them, Be Them. And it's coming out this year, right? In 2020. [00:47:21] Speaker C: Awesome. Women's Day on the 8th of March. [00:47:25] Speaker A: Oh, amazing. [00:47:26] Speaker B: Oh, nice. [00:47:27] Speaker C: Cool. [00:47:27] Speaker D: I mean, we're happy about that, but I mean, Women's Day in itself. Don't get me started on that. [00:47:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:47:33] Speaker D: Stay Women's Week. [00:47:35] Speaker B: Wow. [00:47:37] Speaker A: My favorite. It's. It's a stat on International Women's Day that the number one search thing on that day is when is International Men's Day? Because all these men online are complaining about not having one. It's sometime in November. [00:47:50] Speaker C: Like, I saw like a tweet on that and then a woman had replied. Like, it hasn't happened because a woman hasn't organized it. [00:48:00] Speaker A: Like, oh, were you expecting a parade? There isn't one because there wasn't a woman to organize it for you. So because the book's not online yet, we don't have a synopsis like we do for your myths book. Books, plural. So do you guys want to give, like, a quick summary of what the book looks like? Yeah, sure. [00:48:22] Speaker D: Do that. [00:48:23] Speaker C: This is Jen's mastermind, so I'll let Jen. [00:48:26] Speaker D: So about. It's probably just under two years now, which is a really long time, but it's so rich, it's worth waiting for. So I sent Amy a message and said, I think we. We. We were across so many groups and so many. We work with so many incredible women, so many incredible people. How do we continue to influence change? Not just tell a nice story. So how to tell Amy. And then emailed the publisher, and within, I don't know, seven seconds, I had a reply back. And he's like, yeah, yeah, do it. Let's go. Let's do it now. So that was. That was brilliant to get his backing. And since then, we just. I was gonna hurt. What's the right way to phrase it? We didn't I access people. Like, we invited incredible women to write a chapter. Why I feel uncomfortable about that is that it's only 20 people. I think it's. It's just on the cusp of that, we had a couple of people change, but there's so many more people and there's so many books that we have read that tell great stories, stories of resilience and aspiration and motivation. But we wanted this to also have a. An angle or a parallel kind of process to support organizations, governing bodies, even individuals within influential roles to pick the book up or at least have a conversation like the others have been vehicles, vehicles for change and conversation. And then to think for a second, ah, okay. And that is, you know, so the, the starting point was to go and have a conversation with people that we knew were in roles that had maybe challenged their way to the top or. And it wasn't a case of asking people to, to give us warts and all. It wasn't a tell us horrible things that have happened to you. But we framed some loose questions to say this is what we were thinking about in a chapter because they are living and breathing everyday life. It wasn't. There's no kind of heavy academic or underpin like the other books. That was the learning curve, definitely for me and possibly for Amy on that, to say, right, God, there's so much richness in here. How can we edit and critique somebody's story? And what do we shape it into? Because it needs to be what it is, but we need to have a purpose where we're not just saying, have a look at these amazing stories, you know, see it, be it from that angle. But we want influence, change. And my goodness, like the stories, the pathways, the, the courage, the creativity, like, you name it, all those adjectives and more that people have shared with us in this book will, Will make for not just great stories, but this. And I do hate this word, but I'm going to use it for reference. This allyship that they have experienced, that they have found supportive and useful, has really created windows. I mean, Kristen, you've been instrumental in your contribution to the book as well. So there's, there's a whole host of brilliance in the book. And then you have people who are mentioned within the book that can be part of this influence, that say actually instead of being a barrier, they were a person who left the lather down or whatever analogy you might use. But there is one thing that's in it that isn't a spoiler, but it's a thread, as there have been in the other books, is a thread where at one point where we say or we hear, don't enter a job that doesn't align with your values. You're talking about people who have had their values challenged on a regular basis, but they make a decision to persevere to a certain point, to keep that kind of elephant path or whatever, you know, going and create a space for people to follow through. Because if they left that job at that point, that would close the door. They didn't survive it. They weren't good enough. They're not the right fit. So that's the part for me that was like almost a poignant moment. Reading through some of the chapters, having endless zoom calls and team scores with people to understand and to, to support them in, in navigating their thoughts and putting pen to paper was, gosh, like, this is really hard to hear them do that. And you have a whole range of what they've experienced and endured. And some are able to share and some are not able to share, but in how they've explained, you kind of get the feel of it. So I press pause there. But I don't know if there's missing from that. [00:52:45] Speaker A: There's. There's so many things I want to, to unpack there. Unless you want to say something first, Amy, about it or Laura. [00:52:54] Speaker C: It's just a follow on from what Jen was saying. Like one of our. Sorry, Laura, I'll cut you off though. [00:52:59] Speaker B: You go, then I'll go. [00:53:00] Speaker C: Okay. And like Jen said, like, even like every person that I tell that we've, we've created this book and it's inspirational women. And then I'm probably talking to an inspirational woman in front of me and then I'm like, oh, like, of course I would want to. I want to invite every woman that I work with to contribute to the book. Like one of my colleagues the other day was like, I can't believe I didn't get an invite to contribute. [00:53:30] Speaker B: Oh, really? [00:53:30] Speaker A: Oh, no. [00:53:33] Speaker C: But we won. It just, it didn't want to be just all of Jen and our friends so that we had to be careful of that. And two, we wanted it to be representative as much as we could, like from a global perspective. So we've got people from India, Brazil, Norway, Canada. We wanted to try. So we've probably fallen short in a million areas, but we wanted to try as much as we could to bring in cultural nuances. We wanted to make sure we were capturing people with different ethnic and cultural backgrounds because we didn't want it to just be a UK centric book of women working in sport. Because I appreciate that. I think we're quite fortunate. More fortunate than maybe other countries or kind of cultures. So that was something that we were quite passionate to do. So, yeah, to all the people listening who were like, why weren't we invited? [00:54:38] Speaker B: I was just thinking, Amy. [00:54:40] Speaker A: But Laura, surprise. [00:54:41] Speaker D: You're going to be in the second edition. [00:54:44] Speaker B: Thank you so much. [00:54:45] Speaker D: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. [00:54:47] Speaker C: Yeah. People from different professions as well. So like, obviously we could have a whole book on inspirational female sports psychologists. Or coach developers. But we've got people working in coaching people in academia, people working in disability sport. We've got one of the first female mba, not mba, sorry, female coaches. Basketball coaches. [00:55:15] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. [00:55:17] Speaker C: And we've got people working in like leaders in sports or leadership positions. So we wanted as much as we could to try and showcase different types of careers because for me I thought how cool would it be as a, you know, 17, 18 year old thinking I want to go and work in sport, but I'm not really sure. And it's a little bit intimidating in some of these environments. And I can read a book and I can say this woman's been successful in these ways and this woman's been successful in these ways. And these are almost preempt some of the hurdles that they might come across, but they can see how other people have overcome them. [00:55:55] Speaker B: And I think as well, like thinking about maybe like the books or kind of literature that was available when like I was going through training. Kristen was like, going through training is a lot of like kind of men's experiences of being environments. I know. And I think that what he's saying here is it's like, yeah, getting people to pick up the book and to be able to resonate with something or at least one of the stories in it. And I think that's how I felt when Jen, when you were talking about one of the stories just before around this idea of kind of being in like a male dominated environment, maybe noticing that you, you don't quite fit, that it doesn't quite work with your values, but like forcing yourself to continue because you don't want to think that you failed or that you've kind of not been able to figure it out. Like that was one of my big things when I stopped working in football was if I stop working here, I'm telling myself that I haven't been able to figure out how to be successful in this environment. I think that was a really difficult thing for me to let go of and kind of accept and like move on from. So I think if I had stories like that, which I could resonate with, then I think it would have helped me a lot in understanding my experiences, but also making some of those decisions that were ultimately better for me and my life, like in the long run. [00:57:22] Speaker D: But it's all. There's a. Some of the chapters in a pattern across probably 50 of the book of people who have only done that for a period of time. So they have been thinking about their mental health. They have had a plan they're bringing other people on a journey. So there's, you know, beyond, you know, n equals 1. So there's, there's a few more experiencing it and they're building a team or there's. And then they leave. So there is, there's that little bit of. Can you, can you get to a point where you're, you know, you finish a project or you get to the end of a season and then you say, you know, what are my options and how do I move through? But there's very few people in the book who are in jobs for a really long time. And part of that is the experiences they've had. And Amy and I wrote a chapter each as well. And that was a really interesting. I probably did five different angles. Really interesting experience. I didn't want to do it. And part of that was probably revisiting some of the experiences that as a thick skinned Irish woman, I'm like, I should be grand. Just get in there now, put your head down and just, you're lucky to have a job. Would you go on? And you know, being. There was one team I worked with with 26 backroom staff and I was the only female and, and variations of that over the years that maybe when I was in the middle, I was just super grateful to have that position. So I would have been accepted. Any of language and behavior that came the way to a certain extent. But. And you know, and yeah, so there's loads of different examples that I share in there that I think, oh God, okay, maybe they would be helpful or I shouldn't have done that or that' not acceptable and why wasn't I aware at the time? So hopefully we'll build over the years with this book and maybe there'll be future ones for people to say what you've said there, Laura. Like, that's a little bit of a. Ah, okay. [00:59:05] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that awareness part is so important because I think something that we talk about quite a lot. Right. Is that. And I think especially for me, like early on, like working in sport, I wasn't sure what say, sexism even looked like. I just kind of thought that these were kind of normal behaviors. This is just what it's like to work in one of these environments. So I think even having that bit of awareness and being able to check ourselves, like questioning, oh, is that okay? Like, do I accept that? Do I tolerate that or actually do I need to try and push back on it or do something about it? [00:59:42] Speaker A: This is probably really unsurprising, but I Have a lot to say. [00:59:46] Speaker D: I can see you, like, come on, let me go. [00:59:51] Speaker A: Okay, so, yeah, Laura and I talk about this all the time, like, what is acceptable? And you only learn what's more and more acceptable as you gain more experience. But then there's this massive barrier to gaining more experience, because the longer you're in these environments, your mental health can start to really suffer. And it really touches on what you guys are talking about in terms of, like, oh, well, if my values don't align, I just leave. Well, that doesn't really work in a lot of performance environments. And then at the same time, it's like, okay, well, we do need some women to stay in and kind of forge that power. But then how much of that burden do we want to put on women to put themselves through that? So it's almost like this vicious, vicious cycle. And you see so many women going, okay, one to five years, and then I'm out. Because for whatever reason. And when we were. When we were talking initially about, like, me doing a chapter for the book, I know that you guys were really. What's the word I'm looking for? Like, sympathetic, but, like, just, like, aware of the burden that's often put on women to tell their stories and overcome these barriers that are not their fault. And so I think that also goes along to why you guys were very careful about who you were asking, the when, the why, the how, as obviously, you guys wanted a lot of diversity of experience and people. But at the same time, it's like, okay, well, we know that, that when we're looking at data for women, the burden is put on women to work even harder. So you guys were quite sensitive about that. But that also goes into, sorry, I hope this all makes sense. Like, what. What you guys were saying about. There's not that much written for women by women. So Laura and Amy will know from being my supervisors when I was training that there was a specific book that I mentioned in a lot of my reflections that I went based off of my initial sports psych training. And a lot of it says, like, you basically don't want to be portrayed as too much of a psychologist because that's a feminine trait and being feminine in football is bad. And I took advice from that going, okay, I need to minimize my femininity to fit in in this environment. And if I would have had a book that said. Said, no, that's. That's not the case. Do you know what I mean? Then that would have been so much more productive, and I would have developed Better, maybe quicker in a way that was more in line with where I wanted to be. So I think that, you know, books written for women by women are incredibly important. And I also know what you mean, Jen, about, you know, some of these concepts generating what I like to term a lot on this podcast, feminine race. Because even when I was doing the one chapter, it was around when the Harrison. You guys know the Harrison Butker. I know you and Jen and I talked about it. [01:02:46] Speaker C: Do you. [01:02:46] Speaker A: Do you remember the Harrison but Kerr speech? That. Okay. Amy and Laura is saying no. So essentially this was like back in May, and this NFL player, he's just like a kicker. He doesn't really do that much. He. I don't. [01:03:02] Speaker D: Wow. Reduction. Paid a lot of money. Kicks a ball. [01:03:08] Speaker A: Yeah, he just kicks a ball one time, that's all. And then he runs away. He can't even be tackled or anything. But he went to this women's college, it was a religious college, and basically said, your degree is well done, but get back in the kitchen. Essentially, like, that's where your real true role was. And so that really, I think, like, fueled a lot of my, like, some of my examples in the chapter. And just writing about the historical suppression of women's stories is just so frustrating. And that's why this book is even more important. Just, you know, let's. Let's. Let's really value and express women's stories. And so to end my little rant, I suppose I just wanted to pick up on what. What Jen said said at the beginning about the issue with the term ally, because I totally. I think we might have talked about this before. Agree with that. Like with the terminology surrounding ally, because that almost assumes that it's not just treating person like they're a human being. So, yeah, the end. You guys can. [01:04:16] Speaker C: There's one chapter. Well, there's many chapters in the book, but there's a chapter. [01:04:21] Speaker A: There's more than one chapter in the book. [01:04:25] Speaker C: Are you okay by, like, name some of the people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Shakiba, who did a chapter for us, she originally is from Iran, and she had to flee Iran and when she was a child to. And then came to the uk. She's a sports psychology practitioner and an academic now, but her. I think for me, one of the things about the book is making us aware of some of these real inequalities. Not just, you know, we talk about inequalities in the UK but wider globally. And she tells a story about how her and her twin sister got serious repercussions as a child. So playing tag in the playground because I'm assuming like, you know, young girls shouldn't be running and playing and so so that like literally the opening couple paragraphs of that chapter and I'm just like, you know, wow, that is a prime example. Example where women are second class citizens. [01:05:33] Speaker D: Yeah, there's something on the, on the back of what both of you have just said there as well. I think it's important to maybe bring to the surface is the we have to keep mention and keep doing this. And I know Kristen, you're saying like it is a responsibility and we were really cognizant of that going into it to say, listen, endless zoom calls. If you need this, if we're opening, you know, some doors and emotions that you haven't done in a while but you want to, then if it's beyond our remit, we will provide or get support for you to, to feel supported because at the end of the day, it's only a book and only a chapter and your life is your life that you're living. So you are the most important. This is the role the book will play, your chapter will be a core part of it, et cetera, et cetera. And we have incredible books like the Authority Gap and Invisible Women that have gone stat, stat, stat, stat, realize, realize the carnage that has been created before you. But this is a different, you know, it's a, a different kind of lens again. But we are building on that, as you say, Christian like for women, by women and this message and this narrative where the, the language and experiences without even thinking for some of their examples are completely and immediately relatable, even if it's a tiny little aspect. So that was part of the journey. And I'm even reading a book this morning. Is it Good for Good for a Girl? Lauren Fleshman's book. I certainly read that the other day. A collegiate athlete talking about being an athlete and running in a man's world. But she doesn't do it in the same way as the other books I've read. So there's other angles of something will land in this book. With the amount of chapters we have and the different angle, different jobs and different journeys they've been on. We hope that they'll not just be the individual story that will be a motivator and an inspiring, amazing journey, but there'll also be something to have a conversation with somebody who's in an influential position in an organization that can start to make some change, you know, and. [01:07:36] Speaker B: Maybe on that and I guess as we're thinking about, I guess kind of like creating change through this awareness, we have, of course, some reflections for us all to kind of have a think about off the back of this conversation with Jen and Amy. So, first, reflection that we think might be useful is thinking about, like, what information about sport or performance have you heard, maybe on social media or in the press that might. Might actually be a bit of a myth. So what may be some of the things that you've been seeing a lot whilst you've been like, scrolling and maybe thinking about kind of checking what might be behind that information. And then secondly, just reflecting on whether kind of any of these women's experiences that we've been talking about have surprised you. [01:08:27] Speaker A: Laura has such a good. Laura has such a good voice for the reflections. So that's why she always does them, because it's very relaxing saying and make me think. But thank you guys so much for coming on the podcast. I know it's so busy for both of you, so we really appreciate you guys coming on and talking about your books. Yeah, thank you. And your experiences as a whole. And we're going to be begging you to come back at some point, so get ready for those emails. [01:08:52] Speaker D: Yes, we will. Thanks a million. What a great conversation. Appreciate it. [01:08:55] Speaker A: Yeah, it was a great con. I always love talking to you guys and I know we could probably get on 800 more different tangents, which is always an issue. But where can people find the books? [01:09:06] Speaker D: Yes, the MITA sports performance book will be on the Sequoia, the publisher's website, and then Amazon. They're the Amazon. And to the points we made earlier, we wanted this to be accessible in language and affordable. So there's always, you know, a percentage office. There's some student discounts that we have some codes for as well. Well, that knock 25, 30% off. So. And then there's bulk buy, you know, 40% deals off of. I think we've had a couple NBA teams buy a bulk of 15 or 20 of them. So there's lots of different offers to make it because it was never about making the money part of it for us at all. [01:09:45] Speaker A: Awesome, thank you. And then where can they find you on their socials? I know that I'll put it in the show notes, but are there any social medias you want to chuck out there for those listening? [01:09:53] Speaker C: Listening, probably just like LinkedIn and X for me, but maybe I won't be on X for much longer. [01:10:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I feel you on that. [01:10:03] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm transitioning it's blue sky now, isn't it? [01:10:06] Speaker C: Okay, I need to. I need to move with time. [01:10:09] Speaker A: Yeah, I've heard that's much kinder than X. And you're not getting constant Elon Musk influences. [01:10:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:10:17] Speaker C: So, yeah, maybe LinkedIn is LinkedIn. [01:10:19] Speaker D: I think for me too. Yeah. [01:10:21] Speaker A: Okay, great. Well, we'll put all that information in the show notes, but thanks everyone for listening. As usual, we probably have more questions than answers, but we really enjoyed exploring the myths of sport performance and stories of women in sport. Did this leave you with any questions? Make sure to comment and let us know. We'd also love to know if you have. Sorry, my dog is literally whining in the background. We'd love to know if anyone has any topics that you'd like us to explore. So please get involved. Touch, make sure to like, follow, engage however your platform allows. And tell your friends you can find us on various social media platforms. And we'll also stink stick. Oh my God, can't talk anymore. I'm so distracted by the job. We will stick those socials in the show notes as well. And remember, the first step to understanding is asking, but why.