Episode Transcript
[00:00:17] Speaker A: I don't. I don't like butt noodles.
They make me feel a bit uncomfortable either way.
I don't know. It's like, what's in that?
[00:00:28] Speaker B: Probably we don't want to know. I think that's part of the joy.
It's like having, like, a Kraft Mac and Cheese. Like, you don't want to know what's in that powdered cheese sauce, but it tastes delicious.
[00:00:40] Speaker A: That sounds scary. No, no, no.
[00:00:43] Speaker B: Well, what do you eat, like, if you want, like, a comfort food?
[00:00:47] Speaker A: A comfort food.
[00:00:50] Speaker B: That'S like, easy chocolate. Yeah. That's not filling enough.
[00:00:54] Speaker A: Beans. Beans on toast.
[00:00:55] Speaker B: Oh, God, you're so British.
[00:00:57] Speaker A: I've had such cravings for beans on toast recently.
[00:01:00] Speaker B: See, that's what I can't wrap my head around.
[00:01:06] Speaker A: Or like, I guess like a pizza or maybe like a veggie burger. But then also, like, vegetarian burgers now make me feel uncomfortable because there's so much rubbish in them.
[00:01:17] Speaker B: Yeah, I get that. Yeah. Beans on toast. You know, like, when you're sick, like, you have a really bad cold or something, and your partner's cooking food for you and.
[00:01:27] Speaker A: And.
[00:01:28] Speaker B: But all you want is your nostalgic stuff. So when I grew up, my mom would make, like, grilled cheese and tomato soup and that kind of stuff. That's what I want. Jack, when I got sick last time, just made me beans on toast. Beans on toast. Beans on toast. Spaghettios with, like, sausages in it. And I was like, what is this?
[00:01:46] Speaker A: You need to get the SpaghettiOs. I don't know what we call them anymore, Spaghetti hoops. But that are different, like, shapes from different, like, TV shows and stuff, and then it's better.
[00:01:57] Speaker B: I kind of get that. I get that, like, the different shapes taste different. Yes. You're just much more exciting.
Yeah.
[00:02:06] Speaker A: But, yeah, I need beans on toast and then Heinz tomato soup as well. That is, like, if I'm ill, that's, like, basically what I'll eat the whole time.
[00:02:15] Speaker B: Yes. Have you done with, like, a good grilled cheese dipped in the tomato soup?
[00:02:21] Speaker A: No, I feel like that would be a bit too much.
[00:02:23] Speaker B: I recommend, like, a bit too, like. Rich, you want beans on toast?
[00:02:31] Speaker A: Yeah, I do.
[00:02:32] Speaker B: So. But is it.
[00:02:35] Speaker A: I don't know, like.
[00:02:36] Speaker B: Like, like, would you have. I don't know, would you have cheese on toast?
[00:02:42] Speaker A: No, I would have, like, just some bread and butter.
[00:02:46] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah, I get that. Dipped in soup. Yeah. I just always.
[00:02:50] Speaker A: I'm quite plain, but I'm very plain.
[00:02:53] Speaker B: I mean, I wouldn't say I'm the most adventurous person with food. But my life basically revolves around cheese.
[00:02:59] Speaker A: Cheese. Cheese also makes me feel a bit uncomfortable at times. I can only eat certain types of cheese. I get that cheese is very. Is very prone to smelling strange and tasting strange. So.
[00:03:13] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I get that.
[00:03:14] Speaker A: I get that it's not unsafe. Cheese is unsafe.
[00:03:17] Speaker B: Cheese is not a safe place.
[00:03:18] Speaker A: Unless it's. Unless it's like, cheddar, then that's okay.
[00:03:21] Speaker B: I love cheddar. Love cheddar.
[00:03:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:03:25] Speaker B: Maybe we should start the podcast.
[00:03:28] Speaker A: Yeah, let's do it. Okay.
[00:03:32] Speaker B: Okay. Welcome to the but why Podcast, where we explore the human experience through a psychological lens by asking but why? I'm Dr. Kristen.
[00:03:41] Speaker A: And I'm Dr. Laura. And today we're exploring motivation, which we.
[00:03:46] Speaker B: Are feeling not much of today.
[00:03:49] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. I feel. I feel like I don't have a headache, but I feel like something's squashing my brain. That's how I feel.
[00:03:56] Speaker B: Oh, I get that. Maybe it's just, like the existential crisis that the world is going through is just squashing my brain.
[00:04:03] Speaker A: Probably part of it. Yeah, that is probably it.
[00:04:07] Speaker B: I'm just, like, tired always right now, and it's because of just the constant existential dread. I feel like I need to be so informed, but then I'm too informed, and it creates all this stress. And now I'm tired. And I also just got really hungry because we were talking about food.
[00:04:24] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, we did talk about food for a while.
[00:04:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:27] Speaker A: I suppose it makes us not think about the existential dread.
[00:04:31] Speaker B: That's true.
[00:04:32] Speaker A: That's true.
But I get that pain of. I think in terms of, like, you say, like, keeping informed. I feel like I almost, like, avoid a lot of that stuff. Do you know what I mean? Like, I kind of switch off to it because I know I get so stressed. Whereas you do, like, the opposite and you, like, dive into it.
[00:04:52] Speaker B: I think for. There's, like, two things. I think it's an issue because it's an interest of mine and has always been politics and kind of the impact on society and history. And it repeating itself has always been, like, a special interest of mine to the point where, like, it was one of my majors in university in my undergrad, I did psychology and politics.
And so firstly, it's already interesting to me, so it's, like, really hard to avoid it. But also. So after the last election in 2020, and my mental health was taking such a dive. It wasn't just because of the election, but it was very related to, again, that, like, existential question about humanity. And like people sucking and all that kind of stuff. And so I said to myself, especially when we figured out that Trump was running this time, I was like, I'm just, I'm not gonna get engaged. I'm not gonna get engaged. I'm gonna just like, mind my own business. You said what?
I tried so hard and I didn't do too bad.
Could like in, like in this over the summer. But then as it got closer to the election and then when the election happened and you know how much rage I was feeling like, and now I've just gotten more and more. And then you see all this happening and you're like, well, I need to, I have like a responsibility. I'm an educator who knows about all this stuff. And so where does my responsibility end? And so, yeah, I, I don't know how the next, I mean, four years is hopeful because they've already introduced potentially having a third term for the Cheeto fascist man. But yeah, it's hard to balance that. Staying informed and health.
[00:06:39] Speaker A: Yeah. But I think it resonates with me when you mention being an educator. And I think that's something that I've noticed more of now is how if I'm informed with certain, I guess, kind of maybe, but on politics side of politics, but more like, I guess EDI stuff like the sexism work that we do that comes through in like how I lecture so, so much. And I feel like if I didn't have that, it would almost have less meaning as to what I was doing. Because I do generally feel like sharing this information and informing people and getting them to reflect on some of these ideas or what's going on in the world can then have a big impact on how they grew up and how they contribute to society. So I do feel quite like a responsibility in that.
[00:07:31] Speaker B: Yeah, that's exactly how I feel. Is like, well, we're, our roles are educators and we're supposed to be educating people. Oh no, I can hear but the background scratching out the door, but where was I? Yeah, like, it's just like there's such a push for anti intellectualism as well and not critical thinking and not knowing, you know, about the stuff that we talk about, like EDI dei, as you say in America. And if people aren't taught those things at their university or their school, they might not ever come across it because of the way algorithms work, the way like you tend to surround yourself around people that you might be used to. So if you were raised in a certain way that did not want to address these Topics then you might not ever be introduced. So yeah, that's a big.
[00:08:23] Speaker A: Yeah. And when you say, when you say like a push for anti intellectualism, what do you mean by that? Is that happening all over?
[00:08:33] Speaker B: Yes, it's happening all. I mean we're seeing. It's very linked to authoritarian fascist kind of ideals. Because if you don't have an educated society, they can't fight back. Right. So there are in certain countries like Hungary, Italy, like various other places in the US like the rise of fascist ideals, anti intellectualism is a key factor of that.
For example, I don't know if you saw my video, I think it was last week or two weeks ago. There's.
Because they're taking away DEI EDI concepts from everything at a federal level now. The National Science foundation has had to remove all these terms that deal with.
[00:09:16] Speaker A: Edis, dei, oh my God, they took.
[00:09:19] Speaker B: Away the term woman. But they also like, even just like taking away all these, you know, perceived EDI terms like women, black, like bipoc, things like that. They also went.
[00:09:32] Speaker A: When you say take, take away, what do you mean? Like taking away from funding.
[00:09:37] Speaker B: Funding. So like you can't. Or you'll have your grants pulled or you won't get the grants if you include any of these words. Which means the research isn't going to get done. Right? Because people, this is academics, like that's how you're making money. But not just the term woman. The term woman. No, it gets worse. The term bias, which you basically can't do scientific research without using that word. Whether you're exploring friggin like neurons or the sun or you know, bias in a like a cultural or racial sense. It's crazy.
[00:10:14] Speaker A: Who, how, how has this been allowed to happen and who.
[00:10:18] Speaker B: It's an executive order. Trump on day, on day one, he just signed it and said this is what we're doing. So now even, you know what I gotta do because I like lists and I like being informed. So I have a list of a lot of the stuff that has been done. I'm going to read you some of the lists and I'm going to tell you about the impacts it's already had. And then because I really want to get your reactions to it because it doesn't seem real. It's been a month. We're recording this on 17th of February. The inauguration was the 20th of January. It's been like four weeks from today and it's been so much damage. And some people I've heard saying like, oh well, I've not seen an impact on my state level yet I've not felt the impact aside from now groceries are way more expensive.
But like, like why do you think you would see an impact within three weeks? Of course it's going to affect you. It's bad. Now imagine it was going to be in six, six months time.
So I won't go through everything, but I'm going to give you like a little summary. Right.
So since inauguration, the immigration raids and arrests, they can now conduct arrests in like churches and hospitals and sensitive areas that used to be like protected areas. And they're shipping all these migrants, they term illegal immigrants to Guantanamo Bay on military aircraft. And it's costing the taxpayers millions and millions and millions of dollars. And they're, they're, they're exporting. Exporting, I guess, probably. But they're taking less people, they're deporting less people than Biden did. Like their numbers are worse. So like if these like racist people who wanted to get rid of all migrants really want like people gone, it's doing a terrible job. Number two, they've gotten rid of all DEI programs at a federal level. So there's an executive order that he signed on the first day, 1414151, shut down all federal diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives that includes removing workplace protections against like gender discrimination based on gender or sex. So like there's a massive attacks on trans people.
There's also the exact speaking of the executive order that defines sex as strictly male or female assigned at birth.
[00:12:51] Speaker A: Oh yeah.
[00:12:52] Speaker B: So you can't like people like do it going through their transition, can't get a passport that says their chosen gender on it anymore.
Now as well, linking to the abortion thing, they've expanded things so that fetuses are now their actual citizens. So they have that kind of protection even at any like from conception. Right. So it could be murder to you know, have an abortion or something like that. There have also been loads of bills introduced in Congress by these Republican senators. There's the SAVE act, so that's something I'm about to post on. So essentially it requires in person proof of citizenship, like a birth certificate for registering to vote. So doesn't sound that crazy. I guess we have to prove your identity, but you have to have that and a matching license. Right. Think about how many people have a different last name to their women.
Any woman who has changed her last name because she got married or something like that wouldn't be able to vote under this, let alone like trans people and stuff like that who might have changed their name, HR7, which I know I've posted about, is working up for the national abortion ban. And I think this is the one that has the, quote, the health care needs of women must also consider the needs of men.
So fun.
There's just like a lot, right? There's like transgender sport ban bills going on in a lot of states. Like, it's not even really an issue, obviously. It's something the sport community does need to probably figure out at some level. But there's these people that just don't know anything. It's never an issue. Elon Musk has basically taken over the government. He's like, illegal, illegally fired federal employees.
Like, it's just freaking crazy.
[00:14:54] Speaker A: So, like, what do you, what is the, like, bigger picture in this? Like, what's your view on, like, why are they doing this?
[00:15:06] Speaker B: It's to roll back everyone's rights. So only white dudes, straight white dudes, have the ability to run the country. And it's literally the only option. It's the only, what's the word I'm looking for? Outcome of a only capitalist based society that has no legal protections for their, for their people. Right? So it's literally so that the rich can take all the wealth and just have people to work for them. It's basically like going back to like a feudal system, right? You just.
[00:15:44] Speaker A: What is it? What is that?
[00:15:45] Speaker B: It's like kings, like, and kings and queens, like monarchs and stuff like that. And they just had their peasants, although peasants got more work days off than us peasants had like 100 days off a year.
[00:15:57] Speaker A: If only.
I just find it like, like how partly, like, how can they think they can do this? Like, how do they think they can do this? But then I'm like, well, they are doing this.
[00:16:13] Speaker B: They are doing.
[00:16:14] Speaker A: They're being allowed to do this. But then it's like, it messes with my brain a little bit because I just find it so hard to believe why people would want to do this. Like, to the human race.
[00:16:27] Speaker B: Yeah, people are evil. I don't believe that humans are just good natured. I think that we evolve. We're an evolved species, right? We're not. We're animals. We're not. Like, we do, we can and do consider things like philosophy and values that's hardwired into us, but we're not just naturally good, you know, but then it's.
[00:16:48] Speaker A: Almost like, then even more painful to see people who do think that, like, Trump is trying to do good or actually trying to help. And it's like that manipulation I think is really hard.
[00:17:04] Speaker B: People have process so propagandized. But also I think there have just been some terrible people out there. You know, there's been the propagandized people, there's the people that are threatened by change because they don't even realize this, but they're threatened by other people taking up space that they consider theirs. And then there's just the horrible people that are like, literally online you see people are just happy about, like migrants being torn from their families, kids being separated from their parents and being shipped off to Guantanamo Bay. And you're like, what? How can you be happy about this? Like, it's. It's crazy. So it's literally the only outcome that was ever going to happen.
And unless. And people. And they said this. So Steve Bannon said back in 2019, if we get in again, we're going to do the shock and awe approach where we just basically are constantly throwing stuff out there, like scandals and scandals and scandals and just like random stuff while in the background they're rewriting legislature. They're doing the stuff that's going to have long term impact. So people are so focused on what's going on in front of them that they're not seeing the stuff on you.
[00:18:13] Speaker A: Literally. Like a magician.
[00:18:14] Speaker B: Literally. It is literal. Just like fascism magic.
[00:18:19] Speaker A: Oh, no.
[00:18:20] Speaker B: Oh, no, we don't want that.
[00:18:23] Speaker A: It makes it sound a bit more fun, I guess.
[00:18:27] Speaker B: I guess if we're gonna have to have fascist dictators, we may as well have some fun with it.
[00:18:32] Speaker A: It might as well be magical.
[00:18:33] Speaker B: It might as well be magical.
Oh, yeah. So it's really bad. It's like, oh, yeah, I forgot to say they're abolishing the Department of Education.
[00:18:47] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:18:48] Speaker B: RFK Jr. Is now the head of Health and Human Services and he's an anti vaxxer who also thinks that depression medication so SSRIs are harmful.
[00:18:59] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:19:00] Speaker B: Yes. It's. It ain't good.
[00:19:05] Speaker A: It's quite exhausting really, isn't it?
[00:19:07] Speaker B: This is why I'm so tired. I think it's like, you should see.
You're like Christmas.
It's like, you should see my list. It's pages and pages and pages and I just add to it every single day. And I just.
[00:19:22] Speaker A: Oh, do you add to the list? You should make that like publicly available.
[00:19:25] Speaker B: That's not a bad plan, actually. I could do that.
[00:19:27] Speaker A: I would love to see that list. I'd be like, trying to keep myself informed and be like, I know Kristen's list. And then go lie down for an hour.
[00:19:36] Speaker B: Yeah. You would have to.
[00:19:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:39] Speaker B: Oh, but, yeah. So there's. There's my little rant, but yeah. What were you gonna say?
[00:19:44] Speaker A: I was gonna say on. Aside to that. Do. Did you have some good news you wanted to share?
[00:19:50] Speaker B: Do I ever.
[00:19:51] Speaker A: With the. With the book.
[00:19:52] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, We've got a book out.
[00:19:56] Speaker A: So. And he's. Oh, yeah.
[00:19:59] Speaker B: So Laura and I have recently done a book chapter for this book. You can't see it if you're listening only, but it's called Coaching Stories. Navigating Storms, Triumphs and Transformations in Sport. We wrote this a year ago, maybe. Maybe more two years ago.
[00:20:16] Speaker A: With Amy as well. With Amy, Yeah.
[00:20:18] Speaker B: You guys know Amy, who was.
[00:20:19] Speaker A: Who was in our last. Yeah, the last episode.
So we all wrote this together and it was fun.
[00:20:25] Speaker B: Yeah. And we wrote about reconciling a coach athlete relationship.
[00:20:31] Speaker A: Yeah. And what was really fun about this chapter was that at the beginning, like, it wasn't fully academic, I suppose, in a way. Like, at the beginning it was more as telling a story about, like a coach athlete relationship. And then the second part of the chapter was kind of linking that into theories and we linked into. Yeah, coach, athlete relationship and things.
[00:20:53] Speaker B: Writing the story was like, the hardest part, I feel like.
[00:20:57] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:20:58] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:20:59] Speaker A: There's like, too much you could add in.
[00:21:01] Speaker B: Yeah, we're like, how many. How much detail do we need to add here? Especially, like, the autistic need for context. I'm like, well, if I am reading a story, there's. I was reading a book yesterday.
Claire Sager is the author, and she just provides so much detail. And I'm like, I love this so much. Like, she was saying, like, I was having dinner and then parentheses put exactly what she was eating and, like, the spices used. And I love it so much. But another fun thing. I don't know if you remember that we did this when we were writing the story. So, like, essentially the book chapter is like a story. And then we, like, like Laura said, like, explore it through theory. But in the story, we had characters with very gender neutral names so that we couldn't, like, the reader wouldn't. Would or wouldn't put their own assumptions of gender on the characters. So that was an interesting. It was like, interesting writing that way as well.
[00:21:53] Speaker A: That was a fun spin.
[00:21:54] Speaker B: Yeah. What were their names? I'm gonna go through it probably, like.
[00:21:59] Speaker A: I don't know, Sam and Alex.
[00:22:01] Speaker B: I was literally gonna say. I want to say Sam and Alex. That's exactly Sam and Taylor. Oh, Taylor. Fancy.
[00:22:12] Speaker A: Bit of a twist. In a twist.
[00:22:15] Speaker B: Not an Alex. What a twist.
Oh gosh. Have you had anything exciting? Go on. Because this is, this is the first time we've recorded since December.
[00:22:25] Speaker A: I know. Have I had anything exciting or just.
[00:22:30] Speaker B: Nice or fun or anything you want to rant about?
[00:22:33] Speaker A: Nice or fun? I feel like I've just been in such like, I don't know, like just trying to like focus so much on doing work that I don't really like pop my head up very often to actually see what's going on in the world.
But I've been building some Lego that's been quite nice.
[00:22:51] Speaker B: Oh that's fine.
[00:22:52] Speaker A: Building Barada.
[00:22:53] Speaker B: Nice.
[00:22:54] Speaker A: So we finally started that.
[00:22:56] Speaker B: Is that what you got for ages?
[00:22:58] Speaker A: I got it for my birthday so ages ago.
[00:23:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:01] Speaker A: But my thing is like I always feel like I need like the perfect time to do it or to like start something. So I'm like I need a certain amount of time or I need like a good like solid like you know, deep focus time to do it.
[00:23:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:17] Speaker A: But then I eventually was like I'm never going to get that time. I'm just going to have to start and like just see where it goes. Yeah.
[00:23:24] Speaker B: Because you break, you break all your mental health rules about working too late and working on the weekend and all that kind of stuff. If you followed your rules you would have time for your hyper focus into Lego.
[00:23:37] Speaker A: That's what I need to do. Oh well, apart from that.
[00:23:41] Speaker B: No, apart from not following your own rules.
[00:23:43] Speaker A: Apart from that trying to break down my rules.
Yeah, apart from that. Not much is going on.
[00:23:49] Speaker B: Yeah. It's that tough time of year where it's just like teaching, teaching, teaching, working, working like and the weather is gray. Cuz we live in England so it.
[00:24:00] Speaker A: Is, it has been particularly gray lately.
[00:24:03] Speaker B: Yeah. I need sunshine. I just. Jack and I were talking over the weekend. We're like let's. We need some sunshine. We need to book a trip somewhere.
[00:24:13] Speaker A: We've booked a trip to Slovenia which I'm excited about. So for the summer. Oh. So we're gonna go for I think like 10 days or something. Oh good. That'll be nice.
[00:24:22] Speaker B: Awesome.
[00:24:23] Speaker A: We didn't really go abroad last year. Yeah.
[00:24:25] Speaker B: I feel like you haven't done much. You didn't travel much last year.
[00:24:28] Speaker A: No, like only with work.
[00:24:30] Speaker B: Yeah. You did a lot of work.
[00:24:32] Speaker A: But they're not for fun. But anyways.
[00:24:34] Speaker B: Yeah. And now you don't have to travel and go to a conference and speak to people at the same time.
[00:24:40] Speaker A: Yay. Can just relax.
That would be Great.
[00:24:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah.
[00:24:47] Speaker A: But maybe off the back of us being so busy, is it useful to say that we're going bi weekly instead of weekly?
[00:24:55] Speaker B: Yes, I think that's so. Yeah.
[00:24:58] Speaker A: We have recognized basically that it is so hard for us to find time in our calendars where we're both actually free. So we're like, crap, we're just gonna have to. We're gonna have to go every other week instead of every week.
[00:25:13] Speaker B: At least for this. At least for this semester. Because I think that, like, our teaching timetables do not match at all.
[00:25:21] Speaker A: Is completely different.
[00:25:22] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm like, I have all day on Tuesday, it's free. And you're like, maybe I could do like, if we go till like 6:00pm yeah.
So, yeah, for our mental health, we're gonna practice what we preach and switch to every other week for at least until probably like April time, you know, spring, early summer, and then go from there. Check in, see what we're doing. But we're gonna try and provide you guys with as much good content as. Without breaking our brains.
[00:25:55] Speaker A: Yes. That's always the aim. Trying to break the brain.
[00:25:59] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:26:00] Speaker A: Great. And I suppose with that, is that a segue into motivation?
[00:26:04] Speaker B: I guess. I suppose. Yeah.
[00:26:06] Speaker A: This is maybe the best one we're gonna get.
[00:26:08] Speaker B: I guess that's as good as we're gonna get.
[00:26:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, well, we are gonna talk about.
[00:26:14] Speaker B: Motivation, which is Laura's, like, expertise. So I can't even, like, I can't even say enough about how. It's just Laura's like, see, I find.
[00:26:24] Speaker A: It funny that I is. I really do. I do really like it.
[00:26:28] Speaker B: You base every, like, decision or reasoning in sdt. Self determination theory, as you've said to me multiple times, just explains everything you've even said.
[00:26:40] Speaker A: I think it does explain everything.
[00:26:42] Speaker B: You've even said it on the podcast. I could probably play it back to you.
[00:26:46] Speaker A: I think it does. I. I would. I would not say I was an expert because I think there's a lot of stuff I don't know, but I do love it.
[00:26:54] Speaker B: That's something an expert would say.
[00:26:57] Speaker A: And I do think it explains everything.
[00:26:59] Speaker B: Yes. But, yeah, now you're going to explain the theory that explains everything to everyone else.
[00:27:06] Speaker A: The theory of everything and nothing. No, everything. Yeah. Okay. So, well, I suppose so we're talking more broadly about motivation and as like an easy, I suppose, definition of motivation. We can think of it as like a reason for acting or behaving in a certain way. So why do we do what we Do. Why do we. I don't know. Why is Trump doing what he's doing?
[00:27:34] Speaker B: Because he's a sociopath.
[00:27:36] Speaker A: We will not understand that by the end of this podcast, just so you know. We still will not understand, but we can try and understand. Yeah, why do people do what they do?
But it can also be around like inaction. So a lot of the work that we might do that's with athletes or just with say, people trying to exercise more. It can also be, why is there inaction? What are people getting stuck around? So there might be something and we can probably all think of something that we want to do but struggle to do more of. So why is that as well? So why are there some things that we can do really easily, whereas there's some things that we might get a bit more stuck with that could be any sort of behavior from like getting out of bed to climbing up Everest, you know, any of those things.
[00:28:25] Speaker B: I mean, I can give you a lot of reasons why I'm not climbing Everest, but maybe I need therapy so that I have the motivation to want to go up Everest.
[00:28:35] Speaker A: I'd be too scared. I'd be too afraid. No, not for me. But appreciate those of you who do.
[00:28:43] Speaker B: I'm sure we have a lot of Everest climbers listening to us.
[00:28:46] Speaker A: That's what I was thinking. That's what I was thinking. That's for you.
[00:28:50] Speaker B: Shout out, guys.
[00:28:53] Speaker A: So as Krista said, we're going to be specifically talking about a theory called self determination theory, which is the theory of all theories. No, I don't think it's actually called that, but it is probably one of the most, I say like popular, like psychological theories maybe. Like I think it's been used across so many different areas and I'll talk a little bit about that in a bit, I suppose.
But I think when we think about motivation, I always feel like there's such misconception around what motivation actually is. And you get a lot of people thinking that it is, I guess, pushing yourself to your limit or no pain, no gain and things like that. Whereas I think in reality things like that or motivational statements like that only work for some people.
And I think in reality it can actually lead to a lower quality motivation. So perhaps maybe it does get you up and gets you doing what you want to do, maybe it does get you to the gym, for example. But what's the sustainability of that?
And so we'll talk a little bit about this high versus low quality motivation and how that can impact, say like your well being and Your mental health as well as we kind of go through.
[00:30:18] Speaker B: I was just linking everything you said to like my well being is your sdt like kind of in terms of like interests and like stuff like that. And I was just thinking like you just need good quality motivation to have well being for it to exist, for there to be positive well being. You just can't, you can't like links back to our burnout. If you've got poor quality motivation.
[00:30:43] Speaker A: Totally.
[00:30:44] Speaker B: It just grinds on your well being and then can lead to burnout.
[00:30:48] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. And I think that's one of the biggest kind of I, I suppose like one of the biggest takeaways I get like from like self determination theory and kind of some of the many theories within it when we're looking at like the how long term is that behavior we're doing and then that risk of burnout if the motivation is low quality.
So I suppose maybe we break down. Well I'll give you a little bit of background as opposed to self determination theory and then we'll go into a bit more about what we mean about like high and low quality motivation. So I suppose we've got to mention Desi and Ryan. I never know if I say then is that how you pronounce the name?
[00:31:29] Speaker B: You're asking me? I pronounce almost everything wrong. I can't even remember the word I'm looking for half the time, let alone pronunciation.
[00:31:36] Speaker A: I'm going to pronounce it like that then.
D, E, C, I. Cute.
[00:31:40] Speaker B: Is this. Yes, that was cute. My mom got me this for Christmas and I. So I usually sit. Sorry, I just got like, you know when it suddenly starts digging into your mouth?
[00:31:48] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:31:49] Speaker B: I don't.
[00:31:50] Speaker A: Mine hit. Mine's got. I've got a cupcake.
[00:31:54] Speaker B: Oh, that's so cute.
You're going to be hungry again. Oh, that's awesome.
[00:32:00] Speaker A: Sorry guys.
[00:32:01] Speaker B: Destin. Ryan.
[00:32:04] Speaker A: So okay, so I think the kind of the formalization if you like of SDT, so we'll call it SDT for now was in like the mid-1980s and it was originally kind of researched more in like I suppose education like work settings and healthcare and so on but start coming more I suppose into sport in terms of performance and well being.
So when we think about again motivation. But how is it impacting I suppose outcomes, results and so on. Because I do think that it's kind of controversial as we'll go. Not controversial but maybe paradoxical we'll go onto in a little bit. Is that you think to get this really Good quality motivation, you need to be pushing yourself as hard as you can, but actually it's much kind of finer balance than that and really understanding why you're doing what you're doing and getting, I suppose, what we might call intrinsic motivation.
So I suppose. Should I give you a definition for that now?
[00:33:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it would be really helpful for people to understand the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation.
[00:33:21] Speaker A: So there's a continuum for SDT and it's kind of more, I suppose, more detailed than what we're going to talk about right now, but we'll just kind of give you some overviews. But ultimately, at one side of this kind of continuum you've got intrinsic motivation, which is arguably like your higher quality motivation. So intrinsic motivation is basically means that you're motivated by something that's internal to you. So something that is important for you in terms of your own enjoyment or you value what you're doing, you feel like you're learning or maybe even like you identify with the behaviour that you're engaging with. Right. So you're doing it because it's kind of coming from you, like it's something that you intrinsically want to do as opposed to on the other end of this continuum you've got extrinsic motivation. And this, as you could probably guess, means that you're being motivated by something external to you. So an external means. So this might be things like what other people think if you turn up or not.
[00:34:36] Speaker B: That would never motivate you, Laura.
[00:34:38] Speaker A: Oh my God. That motivates me for, like, that's the only reason I wake up is that I care way too much. Also this one, not wanting to let people down, that motivates me a lot.
Doing it because somebody might have told you to do it or because you feel like there's this expectation on you. So this might well motivate us to do the behaviour. Right. But we're very much driven by guilt and shame. So I'm doing the behaviour because I feel like I have to, rather than me intrinsically actually wanting to do that behaviour. And you can probably feel now like, as we're talking about that you can almost get that feel for how much more stressful it is to be motivated by that extrinsic motivation as opposed to the intrinsic. And this is then when we talk about, you know, how this can be quite damaging for like, well being and mental health and so on, but you might still get the behavior for a bit. Like you might still see that behavior happening for a shorter period of time. But there are certain kind of risks with that.
[00:35:51] Speaker B: I have a question.
How does. Because we've linked it almost into like the shame and like social behaviors of humans that are hardwired into our DNA being like a massive motivating factor in like motivation. How does it relate to like other external factors of motivation? Like oh, I want to win this medal or like I want to like go on this holiday at the end of the year or you know what I mean, like getting something external that I don't know. Do you know what I mean?
[00:36:25] Speaker A: Yeah. Like what's your, what's your, what's your understanding of that?
[00:36:29] Speaker B: Well, I'm just thinking I would assume that it would be still if it's intrinsically motivated. Like I'm just linking it to like goal setting, right. So like if you really want. So I'm just, hopefully this makes sense because I'm just word vomiting right now.
So I'm thinking like, say let's say like a medal, right? Like if you want it's like a national medal or something like that. But it's motivated by like your insides. You just really have this burning need to do it rather than like your parents expectations. So I guess it is still maybe socially motivated. What are you, what are your thoughts?
[00:37:04] Speaker A: Yeah, I think you can almost have like that in between, can't you?
So it might be like, okay, maybe I want to win the medal because I identify with, I don't know, being a winner or like this is something that I've always wanted, right, my whole life. Maybe it's kind of that sort of thing. And I think that can be a high. I wouldn't say it's purely intrinsic motivation, but say it could be still a higher quality than being driven by someone else. For example, I'm doing it because I'm being told to. I'm doing it because I really want to be the best at this thing.
So I wouldn't say that it's necessarily like a low quality form of motivation. But I suppose if you don't reach that goal, you don't get that medal, then perhaps then it's when it becomes a little bit like damaging. If you like, I don't want to. Don't know if that's the right word to use. But when it can become more challenging for that person.
And I think it's all about like a balance. Because if you think about sport, like you can't really have sport without the extrinsic elements of motivation because there is usually a scoreboard. There's sometimes, you know, like ranking systems and so on. Like, you can't get away from that more outcome, like externally driven side of sport. So I think it's trying to like, balance that then with some more intrinsic means or higher quality means. So we always talk a lot about values, don't we? So how can we get people to understand the deeper meaning behind why they're doing something rather than it just being like, I'm here to win, but then it's recognised. We cannot take that out of sport.
[00:38:53] Speaker B: So it's like trying to. Well, it's like what we say all the time, probably at least every other episode. It's about the process. The process is the motivation. So for this sport, you have to love your sport. You have to love going to training. Not every second of every day, obviously, but like, it's obviously the. The metal is awesome, but you just love being that athlete or doing that stuff, that kind of vibe.
[00:39:18] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I think, yeah. And I think this is often. And I don't know if you get this, but I think this is quite often where I was gonna say athletes. But, you know, I think it's just people in general. I think sometimes we do get probably like we were just talking about now is we get a bit kind of caught up or lost in like the work and getting things done and doing the tasks and then we almost forget this, like, meaning behind what we're doing. And I think that is when things can turn quite extrinsic and when we become like on the edge of this kind of burnout. So I do think it links in that way.
Yeah.
[00:39:58] Speaker B: Okay, I have four questions, but I don't know now is the appropriate time.
[00:40:02] Speaker A: Did you say four? Specifically four more.
[00:40:05] Speaker B: I have two more.
[00:40:06] Speaker A: I feel like I have four questions.
[00:40:09] Speaker B: Well, I did have three questions. Now I have two questions for now. I think maybe now, because we're on the topic of motivation and we're gonna move it's probably to broader topics at some point. So I was thinking when you were talking about intrinsic and extrinsic motivation and applying that to the neurodivergent community, because as we know, most research has been done on and by neurotypical people. So I like tend to like try and take everything. Like this is a very established theory. Right, we know that. But how it works in a neurodivergent brain might be slightly different. That we don't. We don't know.
[00:40:51] Speaker A: Yeah, okay. Yeah.
[00:40:52] Speaker B: So I was thinking when you were describing intrinsic motivation to me, all I could think about is When I get to hyper focus and just like, oh, engaging in a topic that I'm passionate about and just purely engaging in that for hours is just like, that's like that. It's pure intrinsic motivation.
So I don't know what you're. I'll ask my other. I guess it's not a question, but it's like, what are your thoughts? Like, do you think hyper focus ties to intrinsic motivation?
[00:41:25] Speaker A: I mean, I have no idea, based on like research and literature. But I mean I think it makes a lot of sense, doesn't it? Like you say, it's almost like nothing else matters. Like we shut off, I suppose again, like opinions of others and we are just, just purely focused in on what we're doing. And if there is that enjoyment there, then I think that that is a key thing.
[00:41:49] Speaker B: I think hyperfocus is like a major factor of autistic joy. Like if people aren't able to engage in their hyperfocus, it's no good. And then the second thing I like, did you have something to say?
[00:42:03] Speaker A: Yeah, but I could see your wheels.
[00:42:05] Speaker B: I could see your wheels.
[00:42:06] Speaker A: Oh no, my brain. What was I thinking about anyway? No, you go, it might come back.
[00:42:12] Speaker B: And number one, last one.
When you were talking about the extrinsic motivation, I was thinking a lot about demand avoidance. In like, everyone experiences a bit of demand avoidance. But when you're like neurodivergent, demand avoidance is like a physical pain.
It's like.
So for those who don't know, demand avoidance is like being told to do something. And it's like that feeling that we've all had probably like as teenagers, like you were about to unload the dishwasher or wash the dishes, but your parent tells you to do it and you're like, now I don't want to like that. It's like that, but like on a much bigger stage. And I can just think about like the extrinsic motivation of being told that I have to do something if I don't want to. Just like. And how. I just think it would be really interesting to examine that in the neurodivergent population specifically because they experience demand avoid. Or some people do like really intensely.
[00:43:14] Speaker A: Yeah. And it makes me think of some research that looks at, well, intrinsic and extrinsic motivation. But basically, basically if you have someone who is already intrinsically motivated to do something and then you give them something extrinsic to motivate them, so maybe you're then going to pay them for that thing or they're going to get a reward at the end of it in. I don't know, they're going to get some pizza. If they do, it sounds great, actually. Then they lose that intrinsic motivation.
[00:43:47] Speaker B: Interesting.
[00:43:47] Speaker A: So I think some of the research says, like, if you extrin. Extrinsic rewards can be useful to motivate people who are not intrinsically motivated in the first place. But if you have someone who is intrinsically motivated to empty the dishwasher, which I cannot believe ever existed, but let's say you did.
[00:44:06] Speaker B: I get intrinsically motivated to load the dishwasher. I really enjoy it to the point where my autism.
I had like, a therapy session after my autism diagnosis that comes with it. And they say we ask, have a joke, like, do you. Do you have a. Like a system or like joy, or do you have a thing about loading the dishwasher? And I was like, well, of course.
Who does it? And then I realized that's not normal.
[00:44:39] Speaker A: This is interesting because I wouldn't say I have a way to load it, but if I come to the. If I go to the dishwasher and I see that. That Matt and my partner has loaded it a certain way, I will redo it.
[00:44:51] Speaker B: So you do have a way to load it.
[00:44:54] Speaker A: But I wouldn't say that. Like, I do. Or I wouldn't say, like, I enjoy doing it, but I don't like it when it's not how I expect it to be.
[00:45:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I. I probably have to say, like, I don't enjoy doing chores. Right. But when it's. When it's not done right. I know.
[00:45:12] Speaker A: That's it. That is more the thing. Like, something is not quite right here. Yeah, I need to change it.
[00:45:16] Speaker B: It's not efficient enough. The knives are supposed to be on the left.
[00:45:19] Speaker A: Left.
[00:45:20] Speaker B: The forks are on the right.
[00:45:22] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. Exactly.
[00:45:23] Speaker B: Anyway. Sorry.
[00:45:25] Speaker A: Well, it's even worse with that. Sometimes, like with Matt, he'll put, you know, he'll put a plate in, but it's not. It's not across the same things. It's like wonky. And I'm like, how can you. Jack does that? How can you put a plate in wonky into a dishwasher?
[00:45:39] Speaker B: It needs to be, like, in the same level. Why is it diagonal?
[00:45:42] Speaker A: I feel like this is just common sense, but, you know.
[00:45:46] Speaker B: Yeah, that's what I thought. But apparently it's tizzy for shizzy.
[00:45:52] Speaker A: I don't even know what that is.
[00:45:54] Speaker B: Arch has a tizzle for chisel.
[00:45:59] Speaker A: Now we know.
[00:46:00] Speaker B: Now we know. I mean, it's so cool.
[00:46:03] Speaker A: So yeah, so I think that's quite a fun, a fun bit. What I was going to say before is that I also think, because when you were talking about, I suppose hyper focus is that I, you know, if we are enjoying ourselves and more intrinsically motivated and that can also link to flow experiences which are of course really, I guess quite important for sport and performance as well.
[00:46:28] Speaker B: Like linking it to the workplace and stuff as well. Any performance. Yeah, sorry, yeah, totally.
[00:46:34] Speaker A: So maybe on that, should we move on to the mini theory? One of the many, many, many, many mini theories.
[00:46:41] Speaker B: Yeah, so many.
[00:46:42] Speaker A: So, so I think there are six mini theories in self determination theory. We're just going to talk about one of them which is called basic psych and it's great. This is what I feel like this just, you can just see your life through basic psychological needs theory. And you would be having a great time.
[00:47:03] Speaker B: You would be having a great time. No, you would be having a great time.
[00:47:07] Speaker A: Definitely having a great time. So basically what it says is that we have three basic psychological needs and when these needs are fulfilled we will experience the higher quality motivation. So if you're sitting there thinking, all right, so I want to be intrigued, intrinsically motivated, how can I get there?
This kind of explains I suppose to an extent how we can move ourselves along that continuum. So how can we experience high quality motivation by fulfilling these needs? And these needs are so autonomy. So this is all about choice. So being able to make your own choice about why you're doing things. So are you being told you have to do something or have you chosen that? Actually at this point in time I do want to empty dishwasher or is someone telling you to? So if someone's telling you to, that's not really. You don't have much autonomy in that.
Then we've got competence. And this is all about whether we feel we have the skills to complete a task. So yeah, do I feel like I can complete this task or behaviour well?
[00:48:18] Speaker B: And the answer for Jack and Matt loading the dishwasher is no, they do not have the competence.
[00:48:24] Speaker A: Maybe they think it's a yes though and they're like, yeah, maybe they, maybe they don't actually realize how difficult it is.
[00:48:31] Speaker B: Yeah, they don't realize how technical it is. It's just that false male confidence.
[00:48:38] Speaker A: But what I think is interesting with competence is that, you know, and I suppose it makes sense but I think it's interesting that if we are given a task which is too difficult for us then our, you know, our competence just drops. And of course that can really impact our motivation to then engage with that. That. So making sure that it's not too easy because that's also not great for our motivation but making sure it's just at that right level. So it can be quite hard I guess to kind of get that. But one of the things which can help that is the third need which is relatedness or sometimes people might call it like belonging.
So feeling like you belong within, let's say you're in a certain group or you're going to, I don't know, the gym or you're on a football team, do you feel relatedness or belonging or like a connection within that group? And I think this links a lot to like trust and I suppose elements of psychological safety as well. So do you feel that trust and belonging within. In the group and also just feel supported by them?
[00:49:45] Speaker B: I have a question. Are these like fixed or relative? Because I'm just thinking about. I relate a lot to the autonomy and competency side, but not necessarily to the relatedness side. Then I thought actually no, I do. It's like, it's just because my social interactions look different that you know, it's like the relate. I don't need to feel like all the time like that I'm socializing or like, you know, when we were talking about like the social well being aspect. But then I was thinking actually if you're tying it to the quality of the social interaction, we're able to talk about stuff of meaning, stuff like that, then there is that true rel. It's like true relatedness. It's not fall relatedness. So yeah, I just, that was just gonna like pop into my head.
[00:50:29] Speaker A: I. I think that it is different for different people. For sure. It's like even if we think about, I guess the autonomy side, some people will hate it if you just say just do whatever you want. It's not like, you know, you have all the choice in the world. It sometimes is about saying, okay, this person might need a little bit more scaffolding or a bit more support. And I'm going to give them a few options because too much choice actually might overwhelm them. So it is also about making it fit that person and kind of what works for them.
So it might be, for example, maybe we wouldn't want to be in a bigger group where we don't know everyone, but actually being in smaller groups where we can have more. Yeah like say meaningful conversations, like one on one with people. I would say that that is still having a sense of relatedness in that sort of area or activity. Or sometimes it's even like, you know, like you and me, like, talking, like, even just texting each other and messaging about like, like random stuff. Like we're messaging each other about like Lord of the Rings or like a meme that we've seen. Like, I feel like that still engages you with a certain interest and kind of gives you motivation to then engage with that because you have other people in your social circle who are also engaging with that. And I think that makes me think of the accountability side of things when we're thinking about if we're starting to reach a new goal or whatever, having accountability and having others to kind of support us along the way.
[00:52:06] Speaker B: Enough accountability that you're feeling that relatedness and you have the support, but not too much that it's a drag on your autonomy.
[00:52:16] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. And that you don't just then end up doing it out of guilt that you haven't. Right.
[00:52:22] Speaker B: Just like, that just makes me think about. And this is why I never want to be a boss or like a coach, like how hard it is to coach people to like be a boss at business. Because firstly, you have all these different people who have varying levels of needs. Whatever their basic needs are like different relatedness, autonomy needs. And then you have to, like, figure out how to enforce this in a way that whether it's just keeps their performance level or progresses their performance is just like I. That just sounds like hell to me, trying to figure that out for so many people. Like, I can do it on a one, on one basis or like for a team and give them the tools to do that. But having to actually do that in the, in the role of a boss, where you almost like have to tell people what to do rather than help them figure out how to do, which is what we do.
[00:53:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:53:14] Speaker B: Do you know what I mean?
[00:53:15] Speaker A: Yeah, I get you. And maybe there's something in there around trying to empower people to understand their own needs. And so in terms of these three needs, trying to understand themselves within it. And what does that mean?
So I suppose you could say that's giving them autonomy.
So it could be something around that.
[00:53:34] Speaker B: How do you do. How would you do that if you were like a coach or a boss or something?
Just putting you on the spot casually.
[00:53:43] Speaker A: I feel like it's almost.
And I might be wrong with this, but I feel like in say, like a business setting, it's perhaps a little bit easier because you can. I don't know, maybe it is some sort of like, workshop that you do with them or a meeting that you have with them. Whereas I feel like. And I suppose you could do that in, like, coaching, but sometimes it's like you don't want to just make it seem really serious and like, it's an educational session. You want it to be something that's meaningful and that people can kind of experience for themselves.
So maybe it is around reflecting together in, like, groups, around these three different needs. How do they think that it gets fulfilled? And again, by doing that in groups, you are also hopefully building connection and belonging with those people.
[00:54:33] Speaker B: Yeah, it's almost like you know what. You know what you're doing.
[00:54:38] Speaker A: I just made that up.
[00:54:41] Speaker B: Just made that up after, like, only reading probably thousands and thousands of pages about sdt.
[00:54:48] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:54:49] Speaker B: It's just like, I. For me, I don't know if there's, like, a hierarchy of what. What's more important or if they're all equally important or if they're different for different people. But for me, everything is about autonomy. Everything is about choice. Everything is about, like, control over your own life and whether that's just myself and my schedule. So, for example, at my new job, I work at a new university now, if they just kind of like, here's your expectations, but we're not going to micromanage you, right? We're not going to be, like, checking in constantly where you are, like, what you're doing, stuff like that. And it gives me so much more motivation. On my days not teaching, I'm still researching, I'm still doing all this stuff. Whereas if I was told to be doing X, Y, Z, I, like, constantly felt like somebody was checking in on me. Maybe not. But then it also extends the autonomy side back to what's happening in the States and just taking away people's basic rights over their own bodies.
That has such a visceral impact on how I interpret things. And so, I don't know, I think maybe for me, the obviously competence is big because I, like, literally can't stand when people are talking shit about stuff they don't know. And I like to feel like I know what I'm doing before I do it, but. So I would maybe, like, put them in a hierarchy of what I focus on more, I suppose.
[00:56:12] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And I don't know where my. I don't know where mine would be.
I really don't know. Maybe like a competence part. I think that I thrive off believing that I have the skills to do something, because if I don't feel like I do, then I'll probably panic or feel like anxious that I'm not gonna do it.
But then also the relatedness part. So there's somebody there who's like giving me validation for then what I am doing or being supportive if I haven't done something as well as I wanted to. So I almost feel like they might be more important to me. That's funny, but I don't know. But then if the autonomy wasn't there and I was being made to do something I didn't want to do, then maybe that would then impact the rest of them. But I do think there is they. I do think they're all, they all link so much.
[00:57:13] Speaker B: Yeah, they're all linked and they're all important. But I think they're just maybe, obviously other factors will impact what ones are maybe more important at that time in your life and stuff like that.
[00:57:23] Speaker A: Yes. And I think also like in different contexts, so different contexts, different ones might feel more important. But maybe that is because you're lacking something in a certain environment which makes it feel more pressing.
[00:57:37] Speaker B: That's really interesting because like a lot of what we do gets tied to like our individual experience. Right. So like how could I improve my own autonomy, competence, relatedness. But actually the environment has such an impact on this. How do you think environments best, like foster? Because what you're doing is if you're fostering the basic psychological needs, you're fostering well being and you're fostering productivity. There's a reason that when we're going into like high level sports teams, the first thing we tend to focus on is basic needs and well being because they're so related to performance and outcomes. But also focusing on the outcomes alone doesn't contribute to either well being or their psychological needs slash motivation. It's hard to go into these places and be like, like. No, no, no, no. We, we understand that you have a goal in mind. Right. But really we need to take. So we need to peel back the layers so much more and address the very basic stuff and improve well being to improve productivity. You can't improve well being if basic psychological needs aren't being met.
[00:58:48] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, totally. And I guess this is where there's the research on I suppose, motivational climates like specifically and like what that might look like. And there are a number of frameworks, like target framework looks at building motivational climates. But one thing that I talk about a lot and I probably go on about too much, but is about need supportive communication.
And I think this is really useful for if just if you are working with any types of, with any human being, like how are we communicating in a way that is supporting these three basic psychological needs?
So it might even be, I suppose like giving examples of statements you can use that provide choice or how we ask questions in a way that isn't kind of going against the needs or we would say like thwarting the needs.
So I think need support, communication is a nice way to zoom in on. Yeah. How are we communicating? So something that we will do all the time. Are we really thinking about how we're saying things? And this might even be like say for example, we're giving somebody advice. Have you asked them if they actually want that advice? Or if you can provide a suggestion? So even small things like that. So yeah, I used to do some work on an exercise referral scheme with practitioners who basically prescribe exercise to patients. And a lot of that is around. How are you not just saying to them here are the exercises you need to do, but actually giving them options, giving them choice, asking them what their opinions are, things like that, which seem super basic, but doing that rather than just saying, okay, here's what you need to do is trying to get this deeper understanding as to their autonomy and competence and so on.
[01:00:52] Speaker B: You saying like how basic that is, but it's something that gets so overlooked. Right. And at an individual kind of organizational and societal level. This might be a bit of an aggressive question, but like, do you think that like these broader systems that we live in, so capitalism, patriarchy, fast paced world of everything, do you think this just like really conflicts with our basic needs?
[01:01:18] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes it does.
Yeah, 100%.
And I think that's what makes it, that's what makes it so hard is that we're like constantly fighting back against just society. I suppose, yeah.
[01:01:36] Speaker B: It's hard because like, and I say this to clients probably with usually within the first or second session, if you're feeling anxiety, any depressive symptomology, if you're feeling like you can't, you're, you're not even a, like, you're not even like aware right. Of your feelings or your needs. That is normal.
Because of we, our brains are not evolved to live in the society that we currently live in are because they're basic psychological needs. Our brains are designed to receive autonomy, relatedness and competence throughout our entire lives. And that's literally like you said, rooted to the stuff that's in most of our DNA. That's like a social con. Social constructs is like same shape See, I told you I couldn't speak. Things like things that like moderate our society in like smaller groups never used to be like laws and like all these external things. It was internal feelings of shame that would make you avoid hurting somebody or joy that would make you engage in a task. And like we just don't have. Unless you're living on an island somewhere, which actually sounds great.
Actually I saw somewhere in New Zealand is trying to get people to move to a remote island that only has 50 people on it. They want to increase the population there. So if you work from home, I'm like, like interesting.
[01:03:06] Speaker A: That sounds great.
[01:03:07] Speaker B: Yeah, but yeah, so. So yeah. What are your thoughts on that?
[01:03:11] Speaker A: It's. Yeah, it's just this feeling that we are always kind of going against the grain and it's, you know, I suppose like you say like self determination theory or like meeting these needs. It is something that is within us. Like it's our. We are trying to I suppose grow and always develop I suppose as human beings. But actually what's getting in the way. And it probably is just the. Yeah. How society is built, how we're being forced into quite rigid ways of working or having to fulfill certain, certain roles and so on. And some of these things can be really fulfilling. I'm not saying like that they're not. But it can take quite a lot to find the right environment for you where you do feel like your needs are being met.
[01:04:04] Speaker B: And we're not saying that means you're comfortable all the time. Right.
[01:04:08] Speaker A: Because.
[01:04:08] Speaker B: Yeah, because then you're not growing. Because like a lot of people can take this stuff out of context and be like, oh, well, I'm not 100 happy in my work. I don't get everything I want. Like, they're not my besties. Like, no uncomfortable experiences are part of being human. It's more about like the overall approach. Is that right?
[01:04:29] Speaker A: I think so. And I think it's also, do you have support kind of socially for those challenges that you're going through and is that actually, are you willing to experience that discomfort in the pursuit of something more? Like is that something that you want to be doing or are you feeling this discomfort because you're being told you have to do something that actually you really don't want to? And obviously there's some of that stuff that we just out weird. You just have to. But I think for those bigger. I suppose the, the larger amount of times that. Or yeah. The bigger activities or what we're spending most of our life on, I think ideally we want to be working towards something that is meaningful we care about. But.
But then I say that and I think, well, that's a very kind of privileged way of being.
[01:05:19] Speaker B: Yeah, we're so lucky that we kind of fell in. We didn't fall into it because we worked our asses off. But at the same time we found something that we can be intrinsically motivated to do and make money off of to survive in a world where you need a certain kind of capital to exist. Right. But not everyone has that opportunity and they're literally just working to get a paycheck and support themselves. I just kicked my trash can. That's probably.
But yeah.
[01:05:53] Speaker A: And I think as well they're like, if. If anyone's thinking, you know, maybe you are in like a job or something that you don't get these needs fulfilled by, but perhaps it's fulfilling, you know, like you need to get paid, like you need to live and survive, then I suppose it's thinking outside of that. How can you look at how your needs are met? So where are the times where you. Maybe there are little pockets or certain spaces or environments where you do feel like your needs are met. And how can you use that kind of to your advantage to almost balance out the times or the spaces where you don't feel like your needs are being met?
[01:06:32] Speaker B: I agree. There are some people that really don't care what they're doing for a living. They just want to make their money so that they can enjoy their off time. But I think that's. That's also quite privileged because that's a choice that they're making. I just want to focus on this, make money and enjoy myself in my off time. And then there's people that just literally doesn't have that autonomy, that choice because of the way society is structured. Like in the States, even your health care is tied to your work. You. So if you don't have a job, this is how it all ties.
[01:07:02] Speaker A: This is.
[01:07:02] Speaker B: Capitalism literally is in direct conflict with SDT and basic psychological needs. Literally. If you don't have a job, then you don't have health insurance. Right. So you can't survive unless somebody else is telling you what to do. It's just like crazy.
[01:07:20] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:07:20] Speaker B: Kind of switching, I guess to like a little bit more positive. Look at this is. Do you ever do much on.
What's it called?
Oh, autonomy supportive leadership. I find it so important and interesting.
[01:07:37] Speaker A: Yeah, not loads. I've looked more into like autonomy supportive coaching, but not like leadership specific coaching's leadership isn't it?
[01:07:45] Speaker B: I think it's probably quite similar.
[01:07:46] Speaker A: I think so.
[01:07:47] Speaker B: I just, I just think for whatever reason that I. Probably because of. In my hierarchy autonomy is like the biggest thing. But like whenever I'm seeing bosses or coaches do stuff that just gives so much autonomy and it helps I. From my point of view, autonomy supportive leadership actually filters in and out the right people in like an organization. Because if you're giving all this autonomy to people and your leadership style and they're not making, you know, the, the marks that they need to. For the company, then they're. They're either fired or they leave. Right.
[01:08:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:08:23] Speaker B: So I think, I think broadly like an SDT informed work or school or sport organization environment filters in people that are. Right fits.
[01:08:35] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. And I suppose off the back of that, I suppose like some things which might link from like an autonomy support coaching viewpoint, it's like the coaches might be like moving decision making power, say like to the players for example, but importantly opting to use their ideas instead. So it's not just asking for what other people think but actually acting on it as well.
And then it can also be things like empathising with them. So empathising with negative experiences or emotions they might be feeling or kind of role modeling it and letting them know. I felt that way too. So recognizing emotions in that sense can help to build this kind of relatedness, I suppose.
And then also kind of rationalizing decisions. So that's something that's quite easy to do, but sometimes we don't. But it's like saying why is something a certain way it is giving the reason behind it, not just saying this is how it is or how it's always been, but rationalising the decision making.
And I wonder on that, should we go into some reflections?
[01:09:48] Speaker B: Yeah, let's do it.
[01:09:49] Speaker A: Does that work? Okay.
[01:09:50] Speaker B: Yeah. So as long as you, you're happy with. You know, I feel like you could talk about SDT for eight years, so. And I feel like we barely scratched.
[01:09:58] Speaker A: The surface, we can come back to it.
[01:10:02] Speaker B: That's true. Yeah.
[01:10:03] Speaker A: Yeah. Maybe some reflect because I think that like we've been saying it might be different in kind of different environments, you might feel more strongly towards one of the needs than another and so on. So I suppose some reflections that might be useful is thinking firstly, what areas in your life do you think you're experiencing? High quality motivation, so that more intrinsic motivation and perhaps why do you think that's there?
And then the thinking about what activities do you think you engage with out of extrinsic motivation and how does this impact you? Do you think it negatively impacts your wellbeing? And I suppose thinking, is there anything that can shift or change there for you? Or is that something that just has to get done? But perhaps recognising how can you maybe turn up some of these activities that are higher quality motivation and is there anything you can turn down that is a lower quality that might be negatively impacting you?
[01:11:00] Speaker B: I like that picturing it as dials because it also allows you to conceptualize that it can, you can just turn it a little bit. Like you can engage in this thing that you like a little bit more. Or if, you know, if it's not feasible to completely get rid of a job that you hate, you can maybe take on tasks a little bit less. Stuff like that. So I really, I really like it.
But thanks guys for listening. As usual, we probably have more questions than answers, but we really enjoyed exploring motivation. I enjoyed having Laura educate all of us on motivation. Did this leave you with any questions? Make sure to comment and let us know. We'd also love to hear if you have any topics you'd like us to explore. So please get in touch. If you do, please be sure to like follow, engage however your platform allows. And tell your friends. All of this really helps us kind of reach more people who might want to learn. But why? You can find us on various social media platforms. The link is in the bio of our Instagram page and in the show notes too. And remember, the first step to understanding is asking, but why?
[01:12:08] Speaker A: Yay.
