Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to but why Real Talk on Messy Minds and Messier Systems, the podcast where two psychologists overanalyze everything so you don't have to. We're here to unpack the weird, the worrying and the wildly unjust with just enough existential dread to keep it interesting. I'm Dr. Kristen.
[00:00:15] Speaker B: And I'm Dr. Laura. And let's dive into the myths. So Today we're tackling 100 Men, One Gorilla and the Myth of Invulnerability with Dr. P. Olashoga.
[00:00:25] Speaker C: So.
[00:00:25] Speaker B: So Pete, I'll just give a little intro to you.
So Pete's a psychologist and senior lecturer in psychology at Sheffield Hallam University.
He completed his PhD in 2012 where he focused on stress and coping in elite sports coaching. And his current work focuses on burnout, wellbeing and creating sustainability in high performance environments. He's also an internationally recognized researcher in sports psychology and speaks at many events and festivals and international conferences where he talks around topics like self care, mindfulness, burnout, diversity and inclusion, which you guys know. We love talking about these topics here.
And you might recognize Pete because he regularly engages with media, so you might have heard him as a regular guest on BBC Radio 4's all in the Mind. And he's also the producer and host of the award winning podcast 80% mental where he explores psychology, underpinning performance, sport, health and well being with expert guests. So Pete, we're super excited to have you here. Like I say, a lot of the kind of topics that you really dig into are things that we love chatting about here. So we're excited to have you and thank you so much for joining us today.
[00:01:39] Speaker C: No, thank you for the invitation. I'm also super excited to be here.
All sounds quite grand that when you read out that bio there.
Hopefully I've got it is I have to live up to that now.
[00:01:51] Speaker B: No, I like it.
[00:01:51] Speaker A: No pressure.
[00:01:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I think as well like you know, obviously we're working in like the sports site kind of space as well and there's always such kind of positive words kind of from your work kind of around the, the scene. So yeah, we're excited to dig into maybe slightly random topic around I guess gorillas which I need to be introduced to myself.
[00:02:16] Speaker A: It is really fun from this point of view is like okay, we're all three sports psychs but discussing a broader culture cultural issue which I think is quite fun and maybe we'll have some interesting takes especially when it comes to like well being and burnout and stuff like that. So I guess should we jump right into, Right into it.
[00:02:37] Speaker C: Let's do it.
[00:02:38] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:02:38] Speaker A: So, guys.
Pete, Laura, who do you think will would win in a fight? 100 men or a silverback gorilla? And keep in mind the men are unarmed.
[00:02:51] Speaker C: Okay, shall I go first with this? Because I have some.
[00:02:54] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, go on.
[00:02:58] Speaker C: No, I mean, so, I mean, I guess my initial question, and maybe this is because I'm a psychologist. So why are 100 men trying to fight a gorilla? I mean, that's the first question.
But I mean, obviously the gorilla would immediately rip the first guy's head off, not even think twice about it, not break a sweat, and then the other 99 would collectively their pants and run away.
So it's, it's a no contest for me, I think.
[00:03:24] Speaker A: Yeah, because you're expecting just the rest of the 99 guys to look at their first friend being sacrificed and being like, I'm fine. Being the next person in line for that.
[00:03:34] Speaker C: This is bloodied, mutilated corpse just lying in front of him and going, right, my turn.
[00:03:41] Speaker A: Laura, what do you think?
[00:03:44] Speaker B: This makes sense, but also the first thing, the first thing I thought about, I don't know if you guys have seen this online where there's like the AI recreations of random groups of fictional creatures and characters fighting each other. So I always had that in my mind. I think there's some online where you have, I don't know, there's like a hundred Harry Potters versus like two Balrogs or something.
But I was thinking about this and how that would play out. But I suppose, I wonder if AI would say, put in the component of fear and people actually running away rather than the intention to fight and win.
[00:04:20] Speaker A: Okay, so a few of those simulations have actually been run, of course. And I wasn't. Okay, I wasn't. Actually there's an article on it that I wasn't going to bring in because it seemed maybe a bit tangential. But now that you've mentioned the AI, I think I might do that.
But first I want to read off some facts about gorillas.
Maybe, maybe, maybe some context for this. So obviously we're not talking about the smartest or toughest men. The thought was a hundred random men. So you go to the mall or you go to, you know, your closest like city center and gather 100 people. 100 men. Who's gonna win? Here's some gorilla facts. Silver silverback. A full grown silverback male can lift up to 2,000 pounds. Okay, so Laura, I know you're not. You do Kilos, don't you specifically, I'm going to do a thousand in general. I just don't do numbers. We're. We're qual people here.
So if a average silverback male can lift 2,000 pounds, the average human man can lift 135.
They have a huge muscular build, and their bite force is 1300 psi, which is higher than a lion.
They have really thick skin and dense muscles. So, like, injuring them in the first place. If you punch a gorilla, that's knock to do anything.
[00:05:43] Speaker C: So stupid.
[00:05:44] Speaker A: I know. It's ridiculous.
And so I'm trying to decide if I want to do, like, the quick chat GPT consensus on it first or show you the video of the men on barstool sports discussing it first. I think I'll show you the video of the men first because.
[00:06:02] Speaker B: Okay, yeah, that sounds great.
[00:06:04] Speaker A: It'll just make me sound better no matter what, so. So I'm going to share this. And it might look a little awkward.
[00:06:11] Speaker D: On Scre with people saying whether or not 100 people could or could not defeat one gorilla in a fight. Mm.
I am firmly of the belief that a hundred people could easily be.
Okay. All right. I think. I think especially this 10, guys that could really hold their own, that knew what they were doing, like 10 UFC fighters.
But the key part of this 10 is everyone's got to be about the. Yeah, that. You got to be about this, because the first guy who goes in is going to get his head ripped off by the gorilla. And everyone else has to be like, but hold on. We gotta. We gotta still do this. It's gonna be like the Nazi method. Well, if it's one by one. No. Well, no, I know, but, like, someone's getting there. Someone's dying. Like, the idea that we have as human beings is that we can do a battle plan, put that together. We're not gonna go after this guy. Like, go after Steven Seagal, where it's like, okay, I'm gonna run at him. Then he's gonna step to the side, touch me. Then I'll have a.
Then you go at him. No, you gotta just. If you're about this, you gotta. I think you could do with 10. If they're heavyweights, you just surround you grab limbs, and you just start breaking bones. Yeah, you just start breaking bones.
How does one break a bone? I just. I would honestly just grab his windpipe and snap it.
[00:07:26] Speaker A: It's totally doable.
[00:07:28] Speaker D: I think you get.
[00:07:28] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:07:31] Speaker D: Take the eyes out. If you get the eyes, then you can beat the out of anything. Also, do Gorillas have balls. I'd assume they do.
I was thinking that too.
[00:07:39] Speaker A: Of course you were.
[00:07:39] Speaker D: They got. They got balls. They got tiny dicks. The problem, though, is what happens when the gorilla gets a hold of one person and rips his head off and then everyone's like. Or just starts swinging him around like a Donkey Kong. Right, right. Just. Is everyone still about that? You have to stay about the shit.
[00:07:56] Speaker C: So magnificent.
[00:07:59] Speaker A: And that might have been the most coherent version of an argument I probably found.
[00:08:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:08] Speaker A: So initial. Initial thoughts, guys.
[00:08:12] Speaker C: I mean, I'm in agreement that, you know, if it's about. I mean, I don't even know why I'm seriously having this conversation.
[00:08:17] Speaker A: I know.
[00:08:20] Speaker C: But, you know, it's about that dedication, isn't it? And, like, it's just in a realistic situation. A realistic situation. Like, no one wants it anymore. As soon as the first guy gets clubbed to death.
No one wants this.
Everyone's suddenly very, very much regretting their life decisions that have brought them to this point where they're facing off against a silverback girl.
[00:08:44] Speaker A: I'm regretting my life decisions having to, like, do thought pieces about this in the first place.
[00:08:51] Speaker C: I mean, that too.
[00:08:53] Speaker A: There are a lot of good psychological.
[00:08:55] Speaker B: Elements in the discussion, though, I think. Really.
So if we're thinking about dedication, for sure. But I also think that I, like. Like you're saying at the beginning, this is literally if it's. They're unarmed, right? Like, I suppose. I don't know. Like, do you guys think that if they did. If, like, this One group of 100 men had the chance to go and make a battle plan, like, have all of the kit and arms that they needed, then.
[00:09:25] Speaker A: Oh, with weapons, like, if you have a tank, obviously that's going to be a bit different than you just. It's 100 random men. It has to be 100 random men.
[00:09:34] Speaker B: Just random. With no time to plan it out, to get resources, just dropping them in.
[00:09:39] Speaker C: Did you not pick them?
[00:09:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Ooh.
[00:09:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, that'd be just because there's.
[00:09:44] Speaker C: Yeah. I have some people in mind that.
[00:09:45] Speaker B: I'd quite like to see go up.
[00:09:47] Speaker C: Against the silverback gorilla.
[00:09:49] Speaker A: Yeah, you guys can totally win.
We believe in you, Laura. This is your first kind of real exposure to the man versus gorilla debate. I'll just quickly say what ChatGPT said. Okay. Just to explain how in depth some of these things went.
There were men saying, well, well, if all. I can't even get this out. If all 100 of us stood on each other's shoulders, then the sheer force of us would crush it.
That was one argument. Wow.
[00:10:22] Speaker B: But you probably missed, like, let's be honest.
[00:10:25] Speaker C: It was great. It was great though because, I mean, you had like, you know, Steve Irwin.
[00:10:31] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:31] Speaker C: Like, so his, his son was on, like, did a, a tick tock or whatever, like giving his sort of expert opinion. They're kind of guerrilla experts and anthropologists and scientists all weighing in on this like absolutely ridiculous debate. Brilliant.
[00:10:47] Speaker A: It brought together the like dude bros and the science bros into one. So chat GPT did say it could work if you had a swarm attack with sacrifice and in a very small room.
[00:11:03] Speaker C: So like the sacrifice is kind of a key word there. That's an important word that we don't want to just gloss over. Right, because you don't want to be, you don't want to be the first two guys in the room.
[00:11:14] Speaker A: You don't want to be the one who sacrificed. And I would argue I probably wouldn't really want to sacrifice anyone for this useless, unethical fight in the first place. The funniest thing is the fact that this was taken so far as a thought experiment is just like, yes, it's hilarious. And we have the fortune and misfortune as psychologists to see the funny, but also the.
Not so sure about that, about all these, like, online trends. So I guess we should maybe explore why this is almost culturally important at this point in time, this bizarre obsession with hypothetical dominance.
So Pete, I just wanted to get your opinions on this. So like, why do so many men feel that they need to prove their strength through these absurd contests, whether they're hypothetical or not?
[00:12:05] Speaker C: It's, it's funny, isn't it? It's weird. I think, like, you know, if we think about masculinity and femininity to, you know, the same degree we think about masculinity as a social construct. And, and I think a lot of people will roll their eyes at the phrase social construct, but if we think about what that actually means, then it gives us a lot of clues here. Right. So social construct is just the behaviors, the practices that exist in a specific culture, in a specific context at a specific time. Right. So if you think about masculinity as a social construct, these are just the behaviors that are typically associated with being male.
Notice there's nothing to do with biology in there.
It's all just about these kind of culturally accepted practices and they change over time and they change in context. So, you know, we were talking before about basketball, so the behaviors associated with being a man playing basketball are perhaps different to the behaviors and practices associated with, you know, me being a man.
I don't know. As a university lecturer, I do different things in those different contexts. So I think if we look at it overall, traditionally these behaviors are.
And practices associated with men are things like strength, they're things like dominance. We get socialized into this sort of idea that we have to be strong and dominant and brave and be able to fight animals, which is ridiculous.
But that's why I think we get stuck in this position where. All right, well, if this is what sort of culturally accepted in this time and context as what being a man is, then why need to live up to that? I need to show that I can take on a silverback gorilla. And I get upset when people suggest that I couldn't win a fight with a silverback gorilla. Right. Because that's, you know, undermining my, my dominance, I guess.
[00:14:05] Speaker A: And, and by extension of that, your masculinity, which is just an identity that you've really ascribed to.
[00:14:12] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:14:12] Speaker A: Probably out of, you know, just people aren't aware of this a lot of the time. Do you think this kind of takes away from the general humanity, like the general human experience? Because it just always makes me really sad when people have to fit in very like, enclosed whether they be binary roles or they're just like very boxed in roles.
[00:14:31] Speaker C: I think it is. I think it's tragically sad that, you know, we have generations of young men and young women, you know, who feel that they need to fit into these specific roles that again, are just culturally prescribed. There's nothing that says that we have to behave in this way. It's all about kind of culture and place and context. And this is why we see masculinity being very different in different cultures in different contexts. Right. To what it is perhaps in our very, very Western industrialized type of culture. So. But I think it's absolutely, tragically sad that there's a whole generation of young men who feel that they have to fit into this box and they, to, you know, they have to be jacked and go to the gym and eat creatine for breakfast and they also have to, you know, it just kind of fit into these sort of prescribed roles. I think it's. It's tragically sad. And I think the, the pushback against that gets a lot of.
A lot of flack, I think.
And again, it's a misunderstanding of, of what we mean when we say things like toxic masculinity.
So no one's saying that you can't go to the gym. No one's saying that you, you know, shouldn't be confident and make money and all of that sort of stuff. But we're saying that you don't have to do that in order to be, quote, unquote, a man.
[00:15:57] Speaker B: And. And it makes me think a lot about like, stories. Right. I've been, I've been deep diving into stories and narratives recently and for research, but it makes me think about the stories that are out there. Like the narratives that are out there for, say, young men to know about and to inform their behaviour. Like you say, kind of them being trapped in this box and actually the narratives that are being told or that, yeah, we need to be doing all of these quite toxically masculine behaviors. So is this then telling us something about the stories that are being shared? I guess the ones that are being shared around social media are perhaps these more toxic ones that are getting more kind of hit, like more clickbaity things rather than actually, I don't know what the right term is, but a normal masculinity, if you like, a healthy masculinity. What does that look like?
So something around how these stories are living, I guess, within our world at the moment and how some of them just aren't being heard or told.
[00:17:00] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it's really easy to look at social media and say, well, these are again, the stories that are being shared and the stories would be the ones with the most clicks and, you know, the tech bros and the dude bros. And. Right. I think it's really easy to look at social media and say that. But I think, you know, we also have to think about the fact that, well, this has always kind of been long before social media came around. Right. And still is, you know, the way that we are socialized from a very, very young age to fit into these prescribed gender roles, like that still exists.
So, you know, you walk into any supermarket or any, any clothes shop and in 2025 we still have the clothes section for boys where all of the T shirts have got like tanks and dinosaurs and spaceships on them and all of the girls, all the cool stuff. Yeah, but even that, right? You know, we're saying that like tanks are cool and like, you know, unicorns and fairies and stuff are uncool. Well, like, why, why is that? You know, unicorns can be cool, right?
[00:18:02] Speaker A: I love unicorns, personally.
[00:18:04] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:18:07] Speaker C: But it's 2025 and that, that we still have that, like that still exists.
So, you know, from that very young age we're taught that you know, well, boy stuff is about aggression and violence and fighting and you know, and girl stuff is about, you know, flowers and unicorns and fairies and all pink and like. So those messages still exist without social media being involved at all?
[00:18:33] Speaker A: Yes, it makes me think of, because we're aware, we're lucky enough to be in the space that generally accepts that gender is performative and you can take on that performance however you want. So that's masculinity, femininity, however you want to, you know, I guess capture gender as performative. And it's always been performative. So like the fact that, what was it like 150 years ago pink was a traditionally male color because it was like close to red and that meant blood. So it's still relating back to that violence thing, but now it's a, a girl color and it's, it's all bows and stuff like that. It's completely switched. And so you're, you know, men would wear pinks, perform their masculinity and now it's the opposite. And I think masculinity norms have, they've always been performative, but there's like this increased need with social media and with the way the world is right now because it's so, I guess ideologically just divided in a lot of places. Like for example, when you mentioned the grocery in the stores, I don't know if you guys have ever heard of the store Target in America, but they decided to just make a kids section, not gender, the kids section. And this was maybe eight years ago or something like that. When they did that, the, like the lash back they got from it was crazy. And it just shows you how deeply ingrained this performance is in people. And now you have this performance in the digital spaces. You have the trad wife, which I don't problematize, you know, traditional housewife. What I do problematize is when it comes to like a slippery slope into like right wing propaganda, that's what I struggle with. You have like the alpha and the sigma male, which we'll get into in a bit and they just fuel this like insecure identity performance online.
And I just wanted to ask you guys, what toll do you think this takes on us?
[00:20:30] Speaker C: I think it takes a huge toll on us.
I think the, you know, the pressure to live up to this idealized version that's presented to us, I think that takes a huge toll because again, you know, the world of social media is one of comparison. So we're constantly fed this, you know, this never ending stream of, well, this is what your life should be like. Right. This is what you should be doing in terms of your health.
This is what a perfect relationship should look like. This is how much money you should be making. Right. All of these things are just, like, fed to us constantly, Constantly, constantly. And like a psychologist, you know, we know about the problems with the difference between that idealized self and the actual self. Right. And that that's what we're faced with on a daily basis.
Right. This, well, I'm here. And all these people, and you know, make no mistake, all of these people online, that their lives are carefully curated. Like, this isn't real life, but we see it as that. And then there's this discrepancy between, okay, well, here's where I am and here's what my life looks like. This absolute car crash horror show of the life I've got going on, you know, versus this kind of idealized version. And that creates huge problems sometimes as well.
[00:21:47] Speaker B: Even if it's, say, like, even if our life isn't necessarily like a car crash, but we're just trying to do something different or do something that is more for us outside of that norm. That can be so difficult as well.
[00:22:02] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:22:03] Speaker B: And even it just might be simple things. This is things I think about quite a lot. Like, in terms of what clothes am I wearing? Like, what's acceptable for me to, like, wear on a, like, work call or go into work. Like, wearing. I know we've had conversations, conversations with Kristin before around getting tattoos. Getting tattoos and going to work. There's so many different assumptions around what we should or shouldn't be doing. Some of them very old and kind of not necessarily with us anymore in a more modern society. But I think these decisions that we're then making on a daily basis, whether it is from the food that we eat, the people we talk to, the way we present ourselves, so all kind of impacted by these topics that we're discussing.
[00:22:47] Speaker A: Totally. And I think it almost like when you see yourself having to make these decisions and overthinking everything, and then you see these people who are posing as invulnerable and say, maybe people that don't maybe have the same resources that we have.
And, you know, you see these invulnerable, amazing, you know, perceived as amazing people online, but you've got your own stuff going on in the background. Of course you're going to want to emulate that.
And, you know, and they know that, and they know that they're also not invulnerable but this kind of presentation of it is how they can capture an audience. So I think maybe if we kind of transition into a conversation about this invulnerability myth.
And I want to start by showing a video that Laura will definitely have never seen anything like this ever.
So this is called the Truth about what Women Want in Men. So, Laura, you and I are about to learn what we really want.
[00:23:51] Speaker E: Women are attracted to alpha males, period. I feel very sorry for the masses of men that have bought into the notion that being a beta male, being more in touch with your emotional side is actually what they find attractive. That's absolute.
Women want a confidence.
Confidence is very seductive. A confident man that knows exactly what he wants in his life, that is out fighting tooth and nail in the trenches.
Not a man that their cries about how in touching and beautiful things are. Well, that is good in some senses. They want alpha men, men that fight, that are confident, that are driven to achieving their music.
And if you are confident you can do those things, women will find you attractive.
Don't buy into the propaganda. And the. This has been the same since day one.
[00:24:52] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness.
I'd like to quickly say that Jack spent an hour trying to save a bee this morning.
And I know, so nice.
And I was like, you know what? Apparently, according to this video, I should be repulsed by that.
[00:25:08] Speaker B: So, yeah, apparently so. Yeah. Get rid of it.
[00:25:11] Speaker C: Disgraceful.
[00:25:11] Speaker B: Again to kill the bee. Kill the bee.
[00:25:18] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:25:19] Speaker A: I'll let you guys take it from there.
[00:25:20] Speaker C: Well, I mean, where do you even start?
Like, I guess that's.
No, but I mean, the question I've got with all of this stuff is we'll maybe touch on this a little bit later is like, does he really believe the things that he's saying? Like, does he actually believe this stuff?
Or does he have a link to a webpage where he can teach you how to be a real man for $800 a month?
Because that's the grift.
That's the entire grift.
But I think, like, I mean, I have so much to say about the whole concept of alpha males. Scientifically, there is no such thing as an alpha male, right? A guy in the 1970s who was a little bit too obsessed with wolves, right, Spent a lot, a lot of time with wolves, wrote a book, and he described the sort of the behaviors of this, this, this wolves. And he talked about the alpha wolf who was kind of the leader of the pack, dominant, etc. Etc. And then he published this book and very, very shortly afterwards admitted that Yeah, I was entirely wrong about all of that.
But it was too late. Right? So this idea of, like, alpha, alpha males stuck. And again, men with something to sell decided that, well, we need to be, like, dominant and we need to be this alpha and the beta males, these are sort of lesser males, and I need to be, like, dominant and strong and blah, blah, blah, blah. So it's not true. They don't exist. Right. It's not how people work. It's not even how wolves work.
[00:26:59] Speaker A: No. Wolves, they live in family units, don't they? Family units. There's not a dominance hierarchy like we think of and patriarchy or other white supremacy or the. All the other structures.
[00:27:10] Speaker C: Yeah, Alpha males, beta males, sigma males. Just. It's. It's all bollocks. It's all bollocks. And I have no, you know, I don't get anything for saying that. I'm not.
I have no, you know, stake in this. It's just. It's all bollocks.
But the other thing I'm curious about is, like, why do we have to fight all the time?
Like, is that attractive? Like, is that a thing?
I just go around fighting people and things.
[00:27:37] Speaker B: Oh, I'm just still thinking, like, why is this guy saying this stuff?
And I don't know, it's almost scary. Like, the things he was describing in that video. I was like, that makes me feel scared. I don't want to be near a person who is like, how he's describing. Yes, give me someone who's seeing the beautiful things in the world. So then it is interesting how almost like this false information, like Pete's saying has just stuck with us and for some reason, I guess, resonated with people as something that they are aspiring towards.
But why? Why is that something to aspire towards and something that seems important that we have obviously, I guess, as a society decided to keep and continue.
[00:28:27] Speaker A: I think, if you don't mind me just dropping in real quick, there's been some discourse on that recently which I found really interesting online.
I don't know if it's Ollie Merz. I think it's him. I don't know if you guys have seen this, posted that, that online. Like, the before and after of, like, this crazy. I don't know if it's like a CrossFit or like crazy diet he was doing as well. And he had his before, which he was just, like, in shape. He's been to the gym and then the after, which was just like, he's been cutting. He's been like, just Just like in Crazy CrossFit or whatever it is Shape, and they did a poll of who, you know, what do you find attractive before or after? And men overwhelmingly said after. And women overwhelmingly said before. And this guy was like, why are women always lying?
And so I think that a lot of this time, this performance isn't. It's not for women, it's for other men.
[00:29:20] Speaker C: I think this is really, this is really interesting because I was going to bring up that exact same thing about the Ollie Mers thing. And I think it comes back to this grift thing, right? And people having something to sell. So, you know, if people have a vested interest in saying, well, women are lying to you, right? Women are lying and you should listen to other men, because if you believe what women are saying, then there's no need for me to exist anymore. With my online PT coaching, I can get you shredded in six weeks, right? There's no need for me to exist anymore because that's not what people want.
But I think it's. It's really easy for men to fall into this trap of, like, when you're, I guess, feeling vulnerable, right? When you are having these messages reinforced that, okay, so toxic masculinity means that men are toxic. Like, it doesn't. But when you're told that, that being masculine and strong and, you know, fighting gorillas, like, that's a bad thing, right? And that's what the feminists want you to believe. They want you to believe that's a bad thing. It's all nonsense. But that's the message that's being reinforced, right? So we should be the alpha male and we should be tough and we should be strong, right? So when that message is really reinforced, it's really easy for people to say, well, I can solve this problem for you, right? Don't listen to, to women.
Don't listen to what they say they want in a. Like, listen to me, because I can sell you the solution, right? I can get you shredded in six weeks. I can teach you how to, you know, trick women into liking you with all of these pickup techniques, right? I can, I can teach you all of this stuff.
And, like, it's really easy for young men who are perhaps feeling a little bit disinfected. Disinfect, Disaffected, who are perhaps feeling like, okay, well, you know, I'm hearing this all the time that, you know, men are toxic. And, you know, this is a kind of constant message. It's really easy for them to latch onto this and think, okay, well, actually, maybe Maybe these guys are right. Maybe I shouldn't listen to women at all. Maybe I should listen to the person who's trying to sell me something so we can kind of criticize that. But I think it's also really easy to see how that happens.
[00:31:41] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it's almost like there's the.
Do we open up to the vulnerability, which is, I guess a really difficult thing to do a lot of the time. Right. Or do we move towards almost trying to actually, yes. Solve the problem, trying to find a solution, which almost maybe even seems more tangible to people.
So, yeah, okay, I'm going to get a PT and I'm going to go get shredded rather than I'm going to be vulnerable and turn into a. My kind of my emotions. Like you say the, the. Neither of them are necessarily like easy routes, but I suppose it's.
Yeah, they're taking you, I suppose, to very, very different outcomes.
[00:32:22] Speaker A: I think like taking the systemic approach in a system that values, values one side but not the other, that discourages that emotional intelligence. It's almost an easy decision.
And I think this is something that we talk about all the time on this podcast. We can problematize the individual behavior, but really the issue is the people and the algorithms and all the stuff like that are promoting this. I mean, it's easy when you're in this really kind of still developing. Especially most of this stuff is aimed at young boys and adolescents and young men all under the age of 30, who are still looking for their place in the world. They're still growing and developing and developing their identity. So it's like, like if you're looking at it from a logical capitalistic point of view, it's prime real estate.
And so it's trying to hit that balance of okay, where, where do we address? Which I think I, I do want to get into that specifically after one more video because I think I want to have a well rounded exploration of like, what are we actually going to do about it?
But, but first, last video and Laura, this is the suitcase guy. I couldn't find this. I couldn't find the suitcase video. Pete, you do stuff with this guy's videos all the time. And.
[00:33:48] Speaker C: Oh, this is Planet Mike.
[00:33:49] Speaker A: Yeah, Planet Mike.
[00:33:51] Speaker C: I love Planet Mike.
Planet Mike is the best.
[00:33:55] Speaker A: I think he's, he's deleted loads of his videos like this I couldn't find. And so the issue is, is my entire algorithm is all people problematizing or making fun of this kind of stuff. So I couldn't find any of the original videos. But his Instagram and TikTok describes him as gut, health and hormone specialist.
So, Laura, do you have any idea what to expect from this next video knowing that he has a gut and hormone specialist?
[00:34:25] Speaker B: I mean, yeah, I guess you'd like to think it was somewhat scientific.
[00:34:29] Speaker A: You would like to get ready.
[00:34:35] Speaker D: Stepping in and out of your car may ruin your first impression.
[00:34:39] Speaker C: Huh?
[00:34:40] Speaker D: Some of you would be leaning over, bound down to a car.
[00:34:45] Speaker B: I've actually seen this.
[00:34:47] Speaker A: I couldn't find any original videos of this.
[00:34:50] Speaker D: You don't have to look at the door handle.
[00:34:52] Speaker A: You know where it's at.
[00:34:53] Speaker C: Open it, keep it straight, take a.
[00:34:55] Speaker D: Step forward, grab the steering wheel, sit down, call yourself a real car.
Stop ruining your first impression.
[00:35:17] Speaker A: Great gut, health and hormone advice.
[00:35:20] Speaker B: I see all, all of that, all the science. It seems very legit. Got it.
[00:35:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:35:26] Speaker C: Look, this guy, Laura, he's got basically a whole range of videos on how to do things in a manly way.
So those things include taking a drink, standing up, sitting down, walking.
[00:35:41] Speaker A: Rolling a suitcase.
[00:35:43] Speaker C: Rolling suitcase. Just all of the mundane things that nobody really cares about.
He's got a whole series of videos on how to do them in a much more manly way.
[00:35:51] Speaker B: Crazy.
But people seem, People seem to. If he's getting this many, you know, views, it seems to be something that people watch.
[00:36:01] Speaker C: I think this, that I. Yeah, I mean, I think it is in the, you know, he's not alone by any means. There's a load of people who are kind of, you know, doing the same sort of thing. But I think the, the saving grace and the thing that kind of gives me, gives me some strength is the fact that a lot of the videos are people making fun of him.
[00:36:18] Speaker A: Okay, great.
[00:36:19] Speaker B: Yeah, thank goodness.
[00:36:21] Speaker A: I think that's why, because I went on his Instagram and his Tick tock and all of those are gone. It's all like, face.
Yeah. As of, as of this morning.
And so that's why I thought, before we get into kind of like, what are we going to do about this situation? It might be good to talk about. Obviously, you mentioned the alpha male branding as complete pseudoscience that we're probably not going to get away from for a while.
But these guys are trying to sell resilience, which is obviously a term that we work with a lot.
If you're listening to the podcast and not watching, I'm doing that in very heavy quotes because it's not the resilience, though, that we talk about, but it's a very rigid extreme, like one size fits all answer to this. So like hustle culture and ice baths and like gut health guys that teach you how to approach a car properly.
And so I think that because these guys are turning to these guys for like, okay, well, this is how I get my resilience. This is how I wake up at 4am to do this routine that takes two hours before I go to the gym. And then I'll be happy and then I'll be disciplined. Like one of the most common kind of things I'll get online comments wise is. Yeah, but people like Andrew Tate, they the majority of his content isn't this horrific kind of harassment and assault based stuff. It's mostly like teaching men discipline. Same with Jordan Peterson. It's teaching them xyz. And it's just this pipeline into the more harmful behaviors. So I think there's an entry point. So, you know, what, what are we doing? Because. Because I think if people are continuing constantly to engage in this content and try and emulate their lives after this, just like any kind of extreme behavior, like when we're saying toxic masculinity here, we're saying like you're taking a masculine trait and taking it to extreme levels. Just like you can do that with other, any other trait.
I feel like that's just gonna cause stress. I feel like that's just gonna make your burnout in this world worse. Because we don't have a lot of systems in place to support, you know, stress and mental health and well being. So, yeah, just this concept of burning out under this unattainable invulnerability. I just wanted to get your guys's thoughts on that.
[00:38:40] Speaker C: Yeah, well, I think you're absolutely right. And first of all, just to kind of say I wholeheartedly agree with what you were saying there about, you know, Andrew Tate, Jordan Peterson, like they'll say, you know, 12 things that seem reasonably sensible, like tidy a room. Right? Yeah, that's a sensible thing to say. Absolutely. Yeah. Great. Brilliant. And then the 13th thing is like something horrific. Right.
So there's, first of all, it's being aware of that. Right. Being aware of and kind of just noticing that that's happening. But yeah, the burnout stuff is real. And you know, a lot of my research is in burnout and sport. If you think about what burnout is, it's this sort of emotional and physical exhaustion.
Right. Just from the kind of grind of constantly trying to keep up with everything that's going on and that pressure. And again, we can see there are parallels here with the things that we're Talking about that sort of pressure to perform, there's something called a reduced sense of personal accomplishment, which is feeling like no matter how much you're doing, you're just kind of not getting anywhere. Again, parallels here. We talked about this kind of ideal to live up to and unachievable ideal, right? So that. That. That's where that comes in. And then there's a sort of development of kind of cynical attitude towards relationships, towards work, towards the kind of things that you're doing.
Again, huge parallels with all of the things that we've been talking about here. So burnout is absolutely real and a real response to all of this stuff, right? I always talk about burnout as being a perfectly rational response to an environment and to a system that's designed to, you know, cause us these kind of levels of. Of stress, rather than it being kind of an individual problem, something that's kind of wrong with you.
But I think, like, you know, part of it is this. This culture that just celebrates overwork, right? So regardless of the things we've talked about, it's this culture that just celebrates this, you know, stress and burnout is kind of like a badge of honor or something. And again, that's reinforced by all of these sales dudes, you know, like Andy Elliott's another one, right? You've got to be working, like, 25 hours a day. And if you're not doing that, you're letting your family down. And, you know, you should be getting up and doing all of these things like the ice baths, early morning routines, journaling, meditation, exercise, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And, you know, there's nothing wrong with those sort of individual elements, right? We know that practicing gratitude has a positive impact, right? We know that journaling can be helpful. We know that exercise is good for our mental health when we're trying to package all of this stuff together in terms of you have to do all of this stuff, all right? And if you're not doing it, then you're sort of some sort of failure as a. As a person, as a man.
Then of course, that's going to drive the stress and burnout. So I think, like, the first thing is just kind of seeing all of that stuff for what it really is. Like just seeing that kind of nonsense grind culture as being just unrealistic. And it's designed so people can sell you stuff.
[00:41:58] Speaker B: And I think in previous episodes, we've kind of spoken about how it almost like it takes away a choice. And I think that's what maybe, like, me personally kind of always find Difficult is like, well there's all of these things I'm going to be doing. Surely that means I've got to do all of them rather than actually sitting and choosing like which ones might actually work for me, like which ones do I enjoy, which ones do I find value in? It's like we're just taking everything at this almost quite face value and then trying to do it and trying to almost be like the best people we can be. And it is like when does that get to the point when it isn't sustainable, when it isn't helpful for us.
[00:42:37] Speaker A: We recorded an episode last week where we talked about over optimization and how in the current world, you know, with between capitalism and technology, we've got an app for everything. We feel like we need to optimize our gratitude, optimize our mindfulness, optimize every aspect of our lives.
And I just think that contributes so much to just like this broader sense of burnout that people can't put their finger on. And it's very non specific and very broad.
Is it possible for there to be that broader sense and then more specific aspects of burnout, say this maybe gendered aspect of burnout that might be more harmful to your well being and then like this kind of crazy combination of over optimization and gendered expectations and other expectations that can just really have an impact?
[00:43:31] Speaker C: Yeah, I think like because burnout essentially is just a response to chronic stress. Right. Ongoing unmanaged stress and burnout is kind of the almost inevitable consequence of that. There's a couple of other things that play into it as well. And one of them is like, and I think it's relevant here is commitment, how committed we are to things.
Right. And researcher from commodities from the USA or Canada, Tom Radicke talked about this idea of commitment in terms of being attracted to something.
So I'm committed to this endeavor. So maybe looking after my health, whatever health and well being, I'm committed to it because I'm attracted to, I want to do it, I'm interested in doing it. It's important to me and you know, I like doing it. There's the costs of doing it are pretty low, the benefits are pretty high. Great. But there's another form of commitment called entrapment.
And entrapment is where I have to do it. So if attraction is I want to do it, entrapment is I have to do it. And the benefits are sort of not that great. The costs of it are quite high.
There's a sort of lack of alternatives. I feel like I'M stuck in this. In this situation. And this is where some of the stuff we've been talking about comes in. Right. This feeling of being stuck in this. Well, I have to do this because this is what is expected of me. Right. Whether that's.
And again, you know, you asked if there's a sort of gendered component to that, and I think there is, because there are different expectations placed on men and women around this idea of health and fitness, for example. Right. And diet and nutrition.
So there's this kind of idea of being stuck and trapped in a sense of I have to do these things.
And if we're experiencing all of the stress and we're feeling entrapped, then that massively increases the likelihood that we're just going to end up burning out.
So I think, yes, that there is certainly a gendered component to it, but it comes in terms of the way that we're committed to things.
[00:45:35] Speaker B: I just thought it was funny, as you were describing, Pete, that, like, first type of commitment, I was almost thinking, like, that would be great, wouldn't it?
Wouldn't that be nice to kind of have. And I think, you know, we're probably looking that we have it in, like, some ways, but certainly there will be areas where we are feeling this, I guess, sense of being. Being trapped. And I think that that almost seems like the norm for me when I'm thinking about commitment. There is. So almost like, with commitment, it feels like there is something that you have to sacrifice alongside it, rather than actually it being something. Yeah, I'm committed to it because I love it and I really want to want to do it. And like you say, kind of there aren't that many risks, perhaps.
But I think, for me, which is maybe something I haven't noticed before, that alongside commitment, it feels like there's often sacrifice. And I don't know if that's coming from, like, a sporting kind of context. Perhaps that's the sort of vibe that lives within that space.
[00:46:39] Speaker C: Well, I think there is sacrifice. I tried to not use the word sacrifice. I tried to use the word compromise instead.
[00:46:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:46:47] Speaker C: Specifically in sports settings, because I think we get into dangerous territory where we say, well, you have to sacrifice your, you know, family because you have to be at training. You have to sacrifice this in order to do that.
[00:46:56] Speaker B: You're the guy fighting the gorilla first.
[00:46:58] Speaker A: Sacrifice.
[00:47:01] Speaker C: Yeah.
No, so rather than sacrifice, I guess, you know, I talk about it in terms of compromise, and that's understanding that.
Well, like, yeah, there's lots of things that I want to do. Here there's lots of things that are important to me and actually, like, I do have to compromise sometimes. Like, that's, that's a reasonable human expectation. And part of the pressure comes when we feel like we can't. We feel like we have to do everything. Like you were saying before, right, But I can, you know, I want to go to the gym like three times a week, right? And I want to get up and exercise in the morning. But actually, like last night I didn't get until midnight because I was out late and, you know, I'm not going to get up at 5 o' clock in the morning to go training today.
I'm compromised because of the thing that I was doing. The night before was also something that was important to me. So on this occasion that took precedence. I can't do everything all of the time.
Like, so compromise has to be sort of built into this system, otherwise we are doomed to fail. And that sort of pressure to do everything, which again is sort of reinforced through these social media messages, like, that's one of the things that I think is like a huge component of this trend towards burnout.
[00:48:12] Speaker B: Would you go as far to say that this idea of almost compromise is important, I guess, for us coping with this? Like, I'm kind of thinking more towards, like, if we're thinking about what is actually helpful, helping us to say, either mitigate or like, minimize, I suppose, experiences of burnout. Is this compromise something that's important or are there other things that you see as really important that people can do to kind of help themselves, or is that, again, putting it too much on the individual and should we avoid that?
[00:48:44] Speaker C: That's a really interesting question because I think, like, there absolutely are things that individuals can do, right, to mitigate burnout, to manage stress a little bit better, to deal with expectations. One of the things I talk a lot about is values like work, sort of heavily underpinned by acceptance, commitment, therapy and sort of thinking about values and like, what, you know, what's really important to us. And part of that is thinking about what our values really are, right, in terms of family, in terms of relationships, in terms of work, in terms of health, about values in all of these different areas, like, what's really important to me, how am I doing in terms of moving towards those values? But there's an understanding again that there's going to be compromise. So if I think about the world of elite sport, where we work, right?
Yeah, absolutely. There are going to be times when birthdays have to be missed because there's a, you know, it's the Olympics, right? There's going to be, what am I going to do, right? There's going to be times when holidays have to be canceled because this, that and like, that's good to happen, right? But that's okay because, like, I have values in sport that I'm, I'm moving towards by doing that, but I can't do that all the time. Sometimes I have to compromise. Sometimes my values in terms of my family are going to take precedence. Sometimes our values in terms of my health are going to take precedence. So it's about understanding that, that compromise and that, that sort of flex and sway, I suppose, other kind of individual things that, that people can do. Thinking about self care, right? And self care, again, gets a bad rap, particularly, you know, going back to where we started in the manosphere, right? But self care doesn't have to be about taking baths surrounded by scented candles, right? It doesn't have to be that.
It's about what's important for you, what's good for your self care, right? I play video games. I'm 46 and I play video games because I enjoy it, right? But I also get up early and train because I enjoy it, because it's good for my mental health. So it's thinking about, like, what are, you know, what are the things that bring you joy, right?
And making sure you're doing at least some of that in different aspects of your life. So it's about having multiple parts to your, to your identity, right?
So there are individual things that we can do, but there are also bigger systems, things that, that we need to do. And, and you know, one of those is again, looking behind the curtain and seeing this grind for what it is, right? What's this person trying to sell you? Why are they trying to give you these messages over and over again? Why are they trying to tell you that? You know, like the Ollie Mers example. All right, well, women are lying to you.
No, they're not.
So, yeah, so there are individual things that we can do, but there are much kind of bigger societal systems, wide type approaches.
They're important. The first one I would say is just listen to women.
[00:51:47] Speaker A: That'll be a nice little clip for all the people that like to yell at me online.
[00:51:54] Speaker C: No, but it's absolutely true. Just like, listen to it. Like, why Just listen to what women are saying. Like, it's not hard.
[00:52:00] Speaker A: I just, like, I can't wrap my head around just. Maybe it's because we are literally all trained and listening, but just not listening to people in general and taking what they say to you plus their actions at face value.
But that could be a whole other tangent that I will not go off on right now.
But one last question just on the, on that topic. Say you have. Whether it's somebody ingrained and you know, it could be a guy maybe ingrained in the dude bro science or you know, even a woman maybe ingrained in trad wife stuff. What do you say to somebody who might have a bit of ambivalence? So they're kind of stuck in this cycle. They have been for a while. They're getting a lot of their identity from this not outside identity work, but they're maybe starting to recognize awkwardly, maybe this isn't good for me, but I don't know what else to do and I don't really want to move forward. And they're quite stuck.
What are your thoughts about maybe one or two things that might be helpful in that situation for them to maybe move through that?
[00:53:09] Speaker C: Oh, man, that's a big question.
[00:53:11] Speaker A: Sorry, that's like really aggressive. But your two conversation made me keep building and building, building on the conversation on the question.
[00:53:20] Speaker C: It's, it's a, it's a big question and I don't, I don't know if there's like a single answer to it.
I think, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's really difficult to reason somebody out of an argument that they weren't reasoned into, right?
And lots of these, lots of, these types of, of arguments about, you know, masculinity and femininity are like, they appeal to people's emotions is what I was saying a little bit earlier on, right, about, you know, the, the, the, the guy who's feeling a little bit detached from society, lacking in confidence, right? It's really easy to appeal to that emotion and say, well, look, I've got the solution for you.
Right? So how do we kind of break that down?
One of the, one of the issues that I think we have is just like a fundamental misunderstanding of lots of these terms that are thrown around, right?
So toxic masculinity is one of them. And I saw a post literally about half an hour before I came on, you know, before I logged on, saying, like, oh, men are toxic.
You know, men are awful. Men do this. Like, no wonder, you know, the rate of male suicide is so high if we're constantly being told we're toxic. And it's like, well, you've misunderstood what toxic masculinity is. But I can See why that's easy to do because it's an emotional appeal to the situation that you are in at the moment. Right.
And you know, you guys know about cognitive biases and like we're bombarded with so much information that we just take shortcuts. Right. We don't think properly about things.
So if we just slowed down. Down, right. If we just slowed down the way that we think about things, then we can start to see that. All right, well, okay, what do people mean when they say toxic masculinity? I'm going to put the emotion of the phrase to the side and I'm actually going to take time because I'm interested in it, because I'm invested in it to find out a little bit more about this.
Right.
You know, we're told that feminism is bad and it's an attack on our masculinity. Okay, slow down. Right. It's an emotional argument, right?
Find out about it, look it up. Like properly do a Cursory Google search, 45 seconds, Internet connection.
That'll do you.
But you know, I think like if we can just slow down then we start to be able to see the sort of logical fallacies that are presented to us with people like Jordan Peterson and Charlie Kirk, who for some reason the algorithm has decided that I need to see like slowing down our thinking a little bit so we can start to pick apart some of this stuff. Like, okay, well why is these message. Why, why am I getting these messages? Like what are they actually saying? Like, you know, let's talk about the patriarchy. Like let's kind of again, if you slow down for five seconds, you'll be able to see that like that's bad for all of us.
Right? Yeah, that has an impact, a negative impact on men and men's mental health. Right.
So we just gotta slow down. Slow down.
[00:56:48] Speaker A: Yeah, because we've totally got the like our natural shortcuts in our brain plus the fast paced world that we're living in now that the combination is just, well, it's burnout, it's lack of, it's compromised well being, it's things like that. So I think it's important to, rather than over optimizing yourself, but take that personal responsibility to slow down, get a grip on your humanity question any cognitive dissonance you're feeling and things like that.
[00:57:16] Speaker C: I think just. Sorry, just one more thing I guess as well to mention is that I think like we also have a bit of a responsibility to not just assume that people are going to do this by the way themselves.
[00:57:26] Speaker B: Right.
[00:57:27] Speaker C: So, like, as a parent, for example, like, I will actively teach my child. My child, like, about this stuff. All right. And we should be telling our young men and young boys and encouraging them to have, like, an experience, the full range of emotions that are available to them.
All right.
Again, we go back to that socialization. Social socialization we talked about at the start. Right. Like, we have to have an active role in doing this. Right. Name these emotions. What are they? What does it feel like? Right. Well, that's fine. That's absolutely no problem.
You know, we should be encouraging them to do that, to explore different aspects of their identity. Right. You like unicorns. Go for it.
[00:58:17] Speaker B: Well, yeah.
[00:58:21] Speaker C: Like, we can't just kind of expect this to happen and expect people to get to the age of 14 and 15 and be able to think about it for themselves. Like, we've got to be active in dismantling this stuff. It's not going to just dismantle itself.
[00:58:33] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think it almost comes back to that. The vulnerability bit as well is like, actually, if we notice these emotions are coming up, like, that can be quite scary in itself. Right. So, like, you're saying, if actually we can help young people to kind of see these emotions and notice that they're perhaps not as scary as, like, we first thought that they might be, kind of unpack and understand them and feel them and allow them, then that can be really powerful. But, yeah, really tough to do on your own.
[00:59:04] Speaker A: Yeah. I think it's no secret amongst, like, our kind that emotional intelligence saves lives. It saves the lives of the person. It saves the lives of others. It's related to kind of, like, less. Less committing of crime and everything like that. And so I think that's a great way to. I guess, and this aspect of. Is a little bit of personal responsibility, but overall, just engaging in that emotional intelligence and vulnerability and. And. And that side of things. So to end, we've never done this before, but you inspired us when we were on your podcast to play a little game.
Oh, God.
[00:59:47] Speaker C: My own fault.
[00:59:48] Speaker A: Yeah, it's all. It's all your fault. You got yourself into it. And it's called guerrilla strength or human insight.
And essentially it's. Is this a real quote or is it made up by an alpha bro influencer or a meme?
So I'm gonna go through a few quotes, and you're gonna have to tell me, is it an alpha bro, a meme, or an actual psychologist? And I'm gonna do my best to read. I'm gonna Try and read all of them in the same voice so I don't give any clues away. I just haven't really been able to figure out if I'm gonna read them all as an alpha bro or all as an. As a psychologist.
[01:00:29] Speaker C: Okay.
I'm legit nervous now.
[01:00:36] Speaker A: Okay. Number one. Discipline is the shortcut. Emotions are the detour.
[01:00:42] Speaker C: What are my options again?
[01:00:44] Speaker A: Alpha bro meme or psychologist?
[01:00:47] Speaker C: I feel like that's an alpha bro.
[01:00:49] Speaker A: It totally is. So popular. Red Pill YouTuber.
So this one might be easy. You can either cry in the gym or cry in therapy. Either way, you're crying.
[01:01:04] Speaker C: That's got to be a meme.
[01:01:05] Speaker A: Yep. Wow. You're. You're nailing this.
Yeah.
Every man has a.
Yeah. Yeah.
Every man has a war inside of him, and no one's winning.
[01:01:21] Speaker C: I mean, I genuinely feel like that could be any of the three.
[01:01:27] Speaker A: I know.
[01:01:28] Speaker B: That's what's hard about it.
[01:01:31] Speaker C: I'm.
I'm gonna.
I'm gonna go with meme.
[01:01:36] Speaker A: I think that's totally. It's a meme from a parody masculinity account.
[01:01:42] Speaker B: Nice.
[01:01:43] Speaker C: Thank God.
[01:01:45] Speaker A: Anger is often just sadness that doesn't feel safe.
[01:01:49] Speaker C: What was that? Sorry.
[01:01:50] Speaker A: Anger is often just sadness that doesn't feel safe.
[01:01:56] Speaker C: That feels like a psychologist.
[01:01:57] Speaker A: Yes. Oh, my gosh, you're so good at this game.
Just a couple more.
Three more. Three more. Real men don't get offended. They get better.
[01:02:13] Speaker C: That's a dude bro.
[01:02:14] Speaker A: Yep.
[01:02:15] Speaker C: Yeah.
[01:02:16] Speaker A: Yeah.
Okay.
The nervous system is always tells the truth, even when you won't.
[01:02:26] Speaker C: That's a psychologist, surely.
[01:02:28] Speaker A: Yep. Deb. Dana. Never heard of that name before, but Deb Dana. I hadn't heard of her before.
And then last but not least, pressure. Not last. Last one. There is no such thing as a good man. There are only men who haven't failed yet.
This is a bit of a trick question.
[01:02:47] Speaker C: I'm trying to figure out what that actually means one more time.
[01:02:51] Speaker A: That should be the clue.
There is no such thing.
There is no such thing as a good man. There are only men who haven't failed yet.
[01:03:00] Speaker C: That's a dude, bro.
[01:03:01] Speaker A: It is our favorite. Jordan Peterson.
[01:03:05] Speaker C: Oh, wow. Wow.
So, yeah, this is an actual psychiatrist as well.
Well, I say actual heavy quote. Ah. Jordan Peterson. Good grief.
[01:03:18] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, we.
Laura. I mean, Laura. I will. I can't even send you stuff on him because you just would never get back online ever again. And I need you to repost our podcast stuff.
[01:03:30] Speaker B: Trying not to scare me off even more.
[01:03:35] Speaker A: Oh, man. So that was. That was our Game. I.
[01:03:38] Speaker B: You.
[01:03:38] Speaker A: You've nailed every single one. So I'm kind of jealous because I don't think I would have. Yeah.
Especially like the mean one.
[01:03:47] Speaker C: Yeah, well, no, I mean, that's my competitive, masculine side that's come out and absolutely dominated that competition.
[01:03:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
I should have had you compete against Laura and then you could have just completely dominated as the man in the situation.
[01:04:02] Speaker B: Thank goodness that didn't happen.
With my lack of, like, online knowledge. It would have been terrible.
[01:04:08] Speaker A: No, it's purely your gender, Laura. It's because you're a woman.
[01:04:11] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, sorry. Gender. Yeah.
[01:04:15] Speaker A: Oh, man.
[01:04:16] Speaker B: Well, on that.
On that, we always like to kind of close with, I guess, some final reflections from the conversation we've had. And I think something for me that that's kind of stood out was this idea of commitment that you were talking about before and understanding if that is. Yeah. A commitment that is something you're doing because it's something you care about and you're passionate about versus something that we feel like we're forced into sometimes. We can't change those things, but I think that they can be useful things to reflect on within our own lives, whatever gender we may be and to see how that influences our well being, our levels of burnout and so on. I don't know if. Pete, do you have any kind of reflections that you think might be useful to close on?
[01:05:10] Speaker C: No, I mean, it would just be reiterating kind of the things that we've said, really. So, I mean, first of all, thank you so much for having me on the podcast. I really enjoyed it. Thanks for coming on the conversation.
But I think, yeah, it's just about a little bit of self awareness and a little bit of introspection and reflection. Right. And, like, we've all got the capacity to do that.
And I think just spending a little bit of time thinking about, like, are the things that I'm doing, are the things that I'm listening to, are the things that I'm engaging with, are they ultimately helping, like, or are they just making me feel crappy?
[01:05:47] Speaker B: Yes.
[01:05:48] Speaker C: And if they're making you feel crappy, like, do less of it.
My psychologist tip. Right. Do.
Do things that make you feel better and do less of the stuff that makes you feel crappy.
So I think just. Just taking that little bit of time and reflection to just stop and think and slow down, I think. And like I was saying before is probably what I would.
[01:06:12] Speaker B: What would summarize, Kristen, Anything from you before we close?
[01:06:15] Speaker A: No. Other than just saying thank you so Much, Pete, for coming on. It was awesome to have you on and. And chat. Oh, my God. Sorry. My dog just farted so bad and it smells so bad.
I couldn't even get. I couldn't even get through that. I was like. I couldn't even get through it.
[01:06:32] Speaker B: I.
Oh my goodness.
[01:06:35] Speaker A: That was so bad. Oh, my God. This is going to smoke me out in a minute. That's so bad.
Oh, my God. Hold on, let me.
[01:06:44] Speaker C: What. What a way to end.
[01:06:46] Speaker A: Let me regroup. Let me regroup for a second. Oh, my God. That was horrific.
Okay, hot tip. Don't bring your lab in with you when you're doing a podcast in a tiny enclosed room.
Anyway, Pete, thank you so much for coming on. It was awesome to have you on and. And chat about everything and it was really interesting to get your takes and your expertise around burnout and your tips and your reflective tips and everything like that. So thank you so, so much for coming on and taking the time. I sure. I'm sure our audience really appreciates it as well.
I will put all of your social links in the show notes and then any anytime like I'm posting the videos online, I'll tag you in it as well. But you can find Pete on Instagram and tick tock and his 80% mental.com website. So thanks everyone so much for listening. As always, we probably left you with more questions than answers, but that's kind of the point. We love exploring the messy undercurrents of 100 men, one gorilla, and the myth of invulnerability.
Try and say that three times. If you guys have any thoughts, questions rage. We want to hear it. Drop a comment, message us, or shout into the void. But tagging us is much more effective. If there's any topics you'd like us to dig into next, get in touch. We're always up for new rabbit holes. And if you like this episode, please don't forget to follow. Like, rate whatever your platform allows and tell your friends you can find all of our links on the but why Instagram page. Please head to the bio for everything. And remember, the first step to understanding is asking but why?
[01:08:17] Speaker B: Yay.
