Netflix's Adolescence: A Psychological Perspective

[00:00:16] Speaker A: Welcome to the but why Podcast, where we explore the human experience through a psychological lens by asking, but why? I'm Dr. Kristen. [00:00:25] Speaker B: And I'm Dr. Laura. [00:00:27] Speaker A: Did you forget your name? [00:00:28] Speaker B: Yeah. I was like, who am I? Do I say my full name? Do I just say. Anyway, but today we are exploring adolescence. So the TV show and I suppose within that maybe more specifically the idea of kind of incel culture and toxic masculinity. I suppose, yes. So much fun. [00:00:50] Speaker A: So much fun. [00:00:51] Speaker B: Always fun. [00:00:52] Speaker A: It's obvious. Always fun. But I mean, it is interesting because this is kind of a lot of Laura and I's work anyway, so it was interesting to see it. We've got a lot of expertise on the topic. I experience a lot of this online, which has made this week interesting. But before we get into like the deep dive, how are you doing, Laura? How you doing on this Friday afternoon? [00:01:16] Speaker B: I am experiencing, I don't know what the word is. I'm in the. The wake, I don't know, but of my previous hyper fixation on my house. And now there's still so many things that are happening and I'm like, why? Why did I do this too? [00:01:31] Speaker A: I promise you. We have a clip from this podcast of me saying exactly this would happen and you're like, no, it won't happen. [00:01:40] Speaker B: It's getting closer. Got my loft done yesterday. [00:01:44] Speaker A: That was. [00:01:45] Speaker B: Got excited. Oh, but then I had my teeth thing. So basically I was trying to do loads of things with my house. I'm nearly, nearly. That's nearly done. But then in, I have. Have this like spur of motivation when I'm like, I need to do everything. I need to now find a dentist. I hadn't been to the dentist in like two years, so I was like, I need to go to the dentist. And then I was also talking to my mum and we were like, let's do, you know those like, food intolerance tests. Let's do that. [00:02:13] Speaker A: So it's like the spring, spring vibes coming out quite overtly. [00:02:18] Speaker B: My, like health mot. So I got home yesterday after finding out that I should get all of my wisdom teeth taken out. I can't even see any of my wisdom teeth. Anyways, so they did like this X ray, which of course cost like an extra 70 pound on top of the normal thing. And then one of my teeth was just like horizontal. [00:02:41] Speaker A: Oh, lovely. [00:02:42] Speaker B: You can get that one out. And I was like, but the others are fine, right? They're like, no, you really should just get all of them out. [00:02:47] Speaker A: Oh, my God. [00:02:48] Speaker B: Thank you that's like, if you're already. [00:02:50] Speaker A: In there, you may as well take them out. [00:02:52] Speaker B: Yeah, just do all of them. So there was that and then I got home and my intolerance test came through the door and I was like, oh, God, now I've got to do that as well. [00:03:00] Speaker A: Have you looked at it yet? [00:03:02] Speaker B: I opened it because I was procrastinating because I'm meant to be doing loads of marking at the moment. I was like, you know what, I'll just open it and see what I need to do. And it was. It was a bit too confusing for me to take in in that moment, so I just left it there. [00:03:16] Speaker A: You're like, this could provide good distraction. Nope, that's way too much for me right now. I need an easy distraction. [00:03:24] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:03:25] Speaker A: Yeah. Apart from that, mail is never a good distraction, I feel, because most mail we get is, like, just depressing. [00:03:32] Speaker B: So, like, exactly. [00:03:33] Speaker A: Usually I just avoid my mail. [00:03:35] Speaker B: Yeah. It's like bills or something. Also, I always get the BPS of the British Psychological Society, like, magazine through the door and every time I see it, I just think, you know what, I'm just not going to read that. [00:03:47] Speaker A: I just. [00:03:48] Speaker B: I'm just going to throw it in the bin and it makes me feel really guilty. I probably should be reading this. [00:03:54] Speaker A: Yeah. I was looking online to see if there was a way to opt out because I never read it. I'd never read it and I couldn't see one. Like, well, you're just wasting. With paper sending this to me every month I get. I bet, like 10% of BPS members probably read it. No one has. If you're a member of the bps, you don't have time to read a magazine. [00:04:15] Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. [00:04:16] Speaker A: Oh, gosh. [00:04:17] Speaker B: At least do it, like online. Like an online version would be nice. [00:04:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:04:21] Speaker B: And then I wouldn't feel. So I still wouldn't read it, but I wouldn't feel the guilt. [00:04:26] Speaker A: Yeah. You wouldn't feel like you were wasting precious trees every month. [00:04:30] Speaker B: Yes, that is the thing. [00:04:32] Speaker A: It is nice, though, like, because basies. So British association of Sport and Exercise Science does the online ones, they move to online, which is really nice. But then when you write something for the magazine, you're like, oh, I kind of want to have like a hard copy. You know what? Yeah. But that one instance doesn't really justify. Yeah, yeah. Oh, gosh. [00:04:56] Speaker B: How have things been with you? [00:04:58] Speaker A: This week has been like, a little crazy. I think. I'm currently experiencing a phase of nihilism where I just feel like nothing matters I'm just like, too much matters and nothing matters. Because everything matters. Nothing matters. [00:05:13] Speaker B: Yes. [00:05:14] Speaker A: And I like, a lot of it has to do with what's going on in the States, how it gets worse and worse every day. The show that we're going to talk about, about toxic masculinity and misogyny and stuff like that is kind of our bread and butter. But seeing some of the conversations online emerge about it. My TikTok has been weirdly banned. Every single bit of my content is under review. And it's because I think, and the social media person thinks a lot of women are. This is happening to them. Women who discuss misogyny. Men are mass reporting their accounts, like spam reporting against them to get them taken down. So there's loads of women going through that. And so it's just been one of those weeks where nothing like intense is happening, but we're living in an existential crisis in itself right now. So it's just been one of those weeks. Weeks where I've just felt very burnt out. Like on what's today? Friday. On Wednesday night I got five hours of sleep and on Wednesday I was working. I went on a walk with the dogs. I did a really good workout. I was exhausted by the end of the day and still didn't sleep. And so yesterday I was so tired. So. Yeah, but I mean, it's open up a conversation, I guess the show which I'll address at some point later on. But yeah, I'm looking. I am looking forward to the weekend. [00:06:43] Speaker B: Yes, me too. Me too. It's like sometimes it's. It's funny, isn't it, how you can always feel like, you say the week maybe hasn't been like that intense, but there's so much stuff like just going on, on in the world that this kind of has that. Yeah, I guess just impact on us. And I think again, this idea of like. Like, it's that purpose, isn't it? It's like you say, like everything's important, but then nothing matters. It's like, what are we doing? Why are we even bothering? And I think I. I get like that, like quite a lot. Yeah, yeah. [00:07:21] Speaker A: It's not like a nice experience because you want to feel like what you're doing is making a difference. But yeah, just excited for the weekend. And it's like, it's. You probably get this a lot is like, you tell your clients one thing but you find it hard to apply it to yourself. So as I've mentioned before, I tell most of my clients if they're coming into me with like anxiety or depression symptomology. And like, that is normal in the society that we're living in. We're not evolved to live in this society with this technology, with this amount of pressure and working this much, with this much like potential for harassment and all that kind of stuff. So that stuff's happening around you 247 and just because you're not consciously aware of it, your brain still knows what's going on and it's trying to process it. So your anxiety might be caused in part by that, but it's coming out in a different way because it has to get rid of that kind of like crazy energy somewhere. So it might come out in performance anxiety in sport or like post injury anxiety or just really low mood. And then I'm like, why I need to apply that to myself. Of course, I'm now from full circle on the Friday after I took the really relaxing night last night. Played Harry Potter. [00:08:38] Speaker B: Oh, nice. [00:08:39] Speaker A: Like three hours that I read. And now I'm like, no self compassion. It's okay. It's normal. Yeah. [00:08:48] Speaker B: Well done. It's like, I wish I would just shut up. Like, why do I say these things? [00:08:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:56] Speaker B: Sometimes though, I. I don't know, I. Sometimes I think it can feel nice to like wallow. You know what I mean? Sometimes I think you need that like wallowing period where you're just allowing yourself to feel crappy and then, you know, I suppose bringing acceptance to it when you feel like you're a bit more open to it otherwise. It's almost like when someone's just telling you to like feel better about something and it's like, no, like maybe I'm not ready to like feel better right now, you know? [00:09:23] Speaker A: Yeah, definite. I feel like I go in cycles where I'm like, so motivated like now, like, let's make a difference. And then loads of shit happens. And then I'm mad, like rage. And then even more motivated. And then I hit like a burnout period and I'm like, more mad because I don't have energy to do anything about it. I'm like, I shouldn't be letting these idiots get me down. And then I'm just like, like. I would just describe it as like, just can't like very much like shut down. And then it comes back again after I give myself a little break. [00:09:55] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. At least we're aware of the cycles. [00:09:59] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. The first step is awareness. [00:10:03] Speaker B: Yay. [00:10:06] Speaker A: Oh, gosh. All right. Should we just jump straight in? [00:10:10] Speaker B: Yay. [00:10:10] Speaker A: I mean after 10 minutes. I guess jumping straight in after 10 minutes is pretty efficient for us. [00:10:15] Speaker B: That is good, actually. Yeah, we'll take that. [00:10:18] Speaker A: Yeah, we'll take that as a win. [00:10:21] Speaker B: So I suppose maybe as a warning, if you haven't watched the show Adolescence on Netflix, we may be spoiling it for you. So maybe like go watch it if you have Netflix. If you don't, then just listen to us talking about it. [00:10:38] Speaker A: Listen to us. And also trigger warning discussions of violence on multiple levels. Not much discussion of the actual violence, just implied most of the time. But it's just kind of the nature. [00:10:52] Speaker B: Of the show that's maybe more important than the spoilers. Yes. [00:10:56] Speaker A: I mean, we mentioned both of them. They're both important. [00:10:59] Speaker B: We got both. Yes. Spoilers suck. So I guess as just a little bit of a summary in terms of what this show is, so what Adolescence is. So it probably came out a few weeks ago and since then it's had quite a lot of attention, like online. But ultimately it's focused on this story of a 13 year old boy called Jamie Miller and he was accused of murdering his classmate. So Katie Leonard. So a girl from his school. And I think. How many episodes is it? Like four episodes. So it's kind of, it's a limited series and it kind of takes you through the process of, you know, him, I suppose, speaking with the police and kind of finding out about like what happened. But then also a lot of background to like his family life and things like that. One of the key focuses is how. So I'll put this out there. So this is not a whodunit. So it's not, we're not like thinking, ooh, did Jamie do it? Did he not do it? We spoiler. We know he did it at the beginning, from episode one, questioning it a little bit. And that's what I was thinking because I love like who done it? Let's go to trial. And I was thinking, I was thinking like third, fourth episode, we are going to go to a courtroom and it's going to be great. But we didn't. And I was a little bit disappointed. But then I also, I was also kind of like, you know what, I respect that. I get that you're trying to do. They're trying to do something different. Because the focus wasn't on whether he did it or not. The focus was more on like, what? [00:12:44] Speaker A: Why? [00:12:45] Speaker B: I said, yeah, why? What kind of time to do the. But why did he do this? And so the focus of this why was really around like incel culture and like online radicalization and how Jamie kind of ultimately was. Yeah. Within this incel culture and led him to then murder his classmate. So to define this, I will provide a definition which Kristen will then tear apart. No, not tear apart, but give us some more detail on. And also, I think for a little bit of context, I feel like I know so little about this stuff. I feel like I only really heard about incels, probably on one of our first episodes, I think when you were asking me if I knew who, like, Andrew Tate was, and I was like, no, Kristen, who is this? And then you told me. So I'm, I suppose, quite naive when it comes to this. This stuff. But we're gonna. Yeah. Still have a conversation around it and sort of see where we get. So as the definition, then. So this is something that you pulled from online so we can term. So the term incel. So it's associated with mostly an online subculture of people who define themselves as unable to find a romantic or sexual partner despite desiring one, and who may blame, objectify, and denigrate women and girls as a result. And so this, I suppose, is what we see kind of from Jamie and almost his motivations for killing Katie. But I guess before we go into that, Kristin, do you want to tell us. Give us a little bit more nuance to this incel culture. [00:14:33] Speaker A: So the incel culture probably started early 2000s, and you're right, it is a subculture, but it's not a small subculture anymore. It's massive. And it's like every culture. It's super nuanced and has its own rules and social norms and things like that. The manosphere, I think if you put an umbrella out, incel culture is in the manosphere. But the manosphere is the broader culture that they're examining in the show as well. Like the red pill movement. So the red pill movement, if you take the. It's like they take it from the Matrix. Despite the Matrix being developed by two transgender people. [00:15:13] Speaker B: I'm really upset that they've taken that from the Matrix. I'm like, leave the matrix alone. [00:15:17] Speaker A: Leave it out of it. This isn't for. For you. Like, in the red pill is like, if you take the red pill, then feminism never happened or whatever. Some. Something like that. [00:15:28] Speaker B: Okay. [00:15:29] Speaker A: And it's just this idea that there's this massive ownership of women. They mentioned it in the show that 80% of women will go for the top 20% of men, which is just complete. But, like, everyone else is going to be an incel. So there's that. So there's this like, goal to be that top 20% of men. That's who Andrew Tate is. It's like they think they're these big balls, colors and they can do whatever they want with women. It's just like this entitlement to women kind of vibe. And there's a lot of nuance to the culture. If you are interested in it, we could do like an episode on it. But equally, there's a really good episode on Incels in one of the podcasts I listen to called Sad Girls against the Patriarchy. And they do like a full deep dive, deep dive into incel culture. And it's really interesting, see how it developed. So, and, and this has developed, you know, as women gain more agency in their lives. Incels believe that women can only derive pleasure through pain. They believe that women are subordinate. Yeah, there's like this whole, there's this whole belief that like Joan of Arc, when she was burnt at the stake, was literally gaining sexual pleasure. [00:16:47] Speaker B: I'm sorry, they actually believe that. They believe this? Yeah, interesting. [00:16:52] Speaker A: They believe they're all entitled to a woman. They believe, like it's, it's this whole, it's, it's crazy. To provide enough context, we would have to do a whole episode. But essentially men like Andrew Tate, Jordan Peterson, who's a psychologist, by the way, have recognized that this insecurity that men and boys are feeling because they're just a little like, questioning about where they belong in society now, rather than stepping up and teaching them how to be positive influences, they take advantage of the psychological vulnerability because they know they can capitalize on it and make a shit ton of money. So they target men in their, like late teens, early 20s through to late 20s and have them pay thousands of dollars for these classes about how to be a man. I think I mentioned this before, but that has to start in childhood, right? So they target young boys with these messages. They on purpose make boys insecure, saying if you're not in this top 20%, you don't, you're not going to get a woman. But that's not our fault. It's women's fault. It's because women are shallow and they suck and all that. They. All they want is your money. And the term is a top tier man. And so they make these boys, they make these boys insecure. So they need to seek validation from either really toxically masculine men or from women. But they also teach these boys that when they don't get this validation that they so deserve from women that they're entitled to a reaction rather than being like, oh, okay, it's. They're entitled to be angry or violent. So that's bike. That's just like a brief little introduction. [00:18:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I was gonna. Well, I was gonna ask a question, but if it's too, if it needs too much depth, just say. But how do they, like, how do they go about doing that? Is it all just through like online messaging and things like that or. [00:18:51] Speaker A: So there's slippery slopes. So it can start out like your. Because your algorithm shows you more of what you watch, right? [00:18:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:57] Speaker A: Or interact with. So it'll start out with young boys. It's pretty easy. You just show them stuff like, oh, I've got a hot woman by my side. Or like, I've got these cool cars. I'm attractive, I'm. Because in the show, Jamie talks about how he's not attractive and that's like a big point of contention for him. He's like a 13 year old boy. And. And so just like the small things. And then the algorithm sends you more and more and more of similar stuff and it gets, you get deeper and deeper and deeper into the movement. Similar kind of, kind of alter. Right. It's very alt right kind of stuff. And similar stuff is starting to happen to women with the tradwife movement. So it's easy to start with like normal things that we could all have an interest in, like homemaking, like wanting to bake and make great meals. But then you can do slippery slope into trad wife where like, feminism did nothing for us and we should only be at home with the kids. Whereas, like feminine feminism made it so that you, you can choose to do that and that you can choose to say stupid shit like that online. Right. So. Yeah, that's like the easiest, less nuanced explanation. [00:20:08] Speaker B: Yeah. It's just crazy, isn't it? And it always makes me wonder like, like, what's in it for these, these older men who are doing. The people who are actually doing this and manipulating these young boys. What's in it for them? [00:20:24] Speaker A: Money and power. [00:20:26] Speaker B: But how are they getting money out of it? [00:20:28] Speaker A: They're charging, they're charging these young men thousands of dollars for these pre recorded online classes. Oh, classes and heavy quotes. [00:20:38] Speaker B: How do you pick up a bag like a man? [00:20:40] Speaker A: Yep. I showed you that. Yeah. [00:20:43] Speaker B: That's so silly. [00:20:44] Speaker A: Oh, and then. And like they get power too. Andrew Tate was in the White House a couple weeks ago. [00:20:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:50] Speaker A: Mm. And it's just like, comes out of what they're terming that Crisis of lonely men. The. The, like, lonely man epidemic. And in this. This crisis of lonely men, they just feel like they're so entitled to partners and being. They're being denied what's owed to them. When women aren't settling for assholes, right? And they. They don't. Real women all the time have, like, been stepping up. Let's develop ourselves as people. Let's, you know, we have that patriarchal need to look, all right, and all that kind of stuff, but we don't necessarily need, like. We don't, like, feel that if we're. We don't have a man that we're losing on some massive entitlement that we have. Right? So, like, I saw a good thing the other day that said, like, I noticed in this crisis of lonely men, nobody is suggesting. Nobody's suggesting dudes change their attitudes, values, behavior, and lower standards or else they'll die alone with only their cats and diplomas to keep them. Like, basically, like the other direction of the argument that they use for women, like, if you don't do this, fit into this box, then you're going to die alone with your cats. Doesn't sound too bad, honestly. But yeah, no one's suggesting to men that they should step up their game. They're telling women that we need to be nicer to them. We need to progress less. We need to do xyz. [00:22:17] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think this is often something that. Not that. Not that I struggle with, but I think that it's like a hard conversation sometimes when people, you know, almost throw at you, like, oh, there's so much focus on, like, women nowadays. What about the men? Like, what about, like, they're really lonely. Like, we need to support them. We need to focus more on that. And I think it's like, it's not like we're trying to ignore the men, and it's not that we don't want to support them. It's almost that there's just, like, more nuance around it. But I think sometimes I find it hard to have that conversation in a way that is. That feels right. You know what I mean? And maybe because I feel bad if I'm, like, saying no almost to that. That narrative of, like, but what about the. The men? [00:23:15] Speaker A: I used to feel exactly the same and kind of feel bad about it. Number one, men aren't taking up less space in society whatsoever. Women are taking up more than they used to. It's not like a pie. You know what I mean? [00:23:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:30] Speaker A: Yeah. And what was the other thing I was Gonna say. What was the last thing you said? Is that we need. Oh, yeah. The other thing I want to say is then, well, do it. Women are known for. If we have a problem, we solve it as a group. Women seek out community with their friends if they're feeling lonely. Women actively engage in the. Most of the time. Right. Not everyone's perfect, but as a whole, as a gender, there's a reason why women have never had a loneliness epidemic besides never being able to rely on their husbands for emotional labor until very recently. It's because they build community on purpose. Why is it our job to build your community for you? Men need to step up and develop themselves emotionally, psychologically, and like, you know. We wanted to discuss the concept of toxic masculinity. Masculinity in itself isn't toxic, but there are toxic aspects of masculinity, and that's one of them, is this need to, like, do it all on your own and being scared that male friendships will make you seem gay, which is just like, so patriarchal, because that's initially. That's like inherently fear of women or being perceived as feminine. Right. A lot of homophobia is rooted in that and a lot of other problematic stuff. Right. But this patriarchal fear that teaches them to avoid connection, which we are psychologically developed and wired to have. But they refuse to take responsibility to do it because historically, women have done it for them. And so I am done, you know, with that argument, like, as a gender. Pick up, pick it up, pick up your pace, figure out how to do it. Take some responsibility on this. Because the issue is it still gets put on women, though, because we're the ones who face the negative consequences of the epidemic through violence and harassment and stuff. [00:25:33] Speaker B: Yeah. What about for Jamie? Right. So for the adults. Yeah, we gotta. Adolescent. No, no. I'm just thinking, like, I suppose for him, how is it 13 West. Where does the responsibility lie then? Do you know what I mean? That's so hard at that age. You're so easily manipulated. You are vulnerable. I'm not saying that he shouldn't take some responsibility for those actions or anything, but maybe not even. Where does the responsibility lie? Because I guess in the series, you see, you've watched all of it now, right? [00:26:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:17] Speaker B: So especially that last episode, you see how almost like, dumbfounded, in a sense, his parents are. I know there was toxic masculinity, in a sense, perhaps with his dad. [00:26:30] Speaker A: Oh, my God. [00:26:31] Speaker B: Yeah. So you can perhaps see how it's come from there. But then, I don't know, it's I don't know. I think it's difficult because you almost see them being so shocked and so questioning, like, what. What have we done wrong? Yeah. So I don't know. Where does that. I guess where. Where does the responsibility lie for someone who is 13 and being manipulated or. Or stuck in this loneliness epidemic and then turning to kind of incel. Culture. Mm. Like, it feels really hard to try and change. Change that. [00:27:14] Speaker A: So, unsurprisingly, I have a lot of thoughts on this. [00:27:17] Speaker B: Good. That's what I wanted. That's what I was hoping for, because I'm confused. [00:27:20] Speaker A: The responsibility can't be from really women in their lives a little bit, but not. And certainly not women in society, because we're already doing a lot. But equally, they already won't respect what we have to say. Right. It's like kind of talking to a brick wall. There's a reason that when he was in his psychology session, he could say so many things about his dad that he knew about him as a person. He couldn't really say anything about his mom or his sister other than what they could do as objects. So, like, she's a good father. [00:27:53] Speaker B: Oh, I didn't notice that. [00:27:54] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So, like, from a psychology point of view, he obviously idolized his dad, knew everything about him when it came to his mom and sister, his grandma, like, not much. Right. [00:28:06] Speaker B: And I think also, like, the relationship that he was building with the psychologist herself, it was like, very much, like, jokey, almost like they're quite good friends, like, they're on a good level. But there was this. There was such a strong desire just for him to be liked and, yeah. Seen in a positive light by her. But then any inkling that that wasn't. He wasn't ultimately getting what he wanted, it turned into violence. [00:28:37] Speaker A: And so there's a very clear. From, like, the point of view of a psychologist, very clear lack of teaching from parental figures, in this case, probably his dad, about that. And so I do have a lot of thoughts about the dad in that episode, because when I just felt really. [00:28:56] Speaker B: Bad, I felt really sorry. [00:28:58] Speaker A: You know what? I felt bad for them. But at the same time, you can see all the problems. Like, you know, you can. You can see why he was extra vulnerable to this kind of stuff. And the. I would also say responsibilities are much more on schools because there was the episode in the school, and it was so chaotic, and it made me, like, ugh, like, too much. Like, it was so chaotic. So there needs to be stuff done at the more structural level. To sort this problem out. Right. But parents, like, we know this psychologically. Kids learn almost everything from their parents until they're of schooling age, that they're there with their friends and their, like, peers the majority of the time. But they're still, like, learning what their parents are modeling. And usually what they'll do is take the gender of the parent that they are and model most of their behavior. And both parents were what you would describe as. Describe as, like, quite traditional. Right. The mom stayed home, did the domestic labor, and the dad worked outside the home. Had very traditional, like, outlooks on their kids. Like, the mom was more mothering, the dad was a bit more tough. And the thing that was almost so terrifying about this is that they looked so normal as a family. They were some. They are so normal as they were just like, typical women. [00:30:21] Speaker B: Like, if you went, like, had a drink with them or something, then. Yeah. [00:30:25] Speaker A: Which is probably, like, bad for me being so hyper aware is because I just can't be around people like that anymore because the problematic shit they say without even realizing that it's problematic. Yeah. So I think out of the whole series, other than, you know, Jamie, the actual murderer, I'm probably most fucking annoyed at the dad. [00:30:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:48] Speaker A: Yeah. So, yeah, you can see, like. So he has typical weaponized incompetence, right? Yeah. So, like, what do you mean by that? Sorry, where's the sponge? Like, his mom. The mom is up there trying to comfort her daughter, and you hear this man downstairs, where's the sponge? Come down and find it for me. [00:31:09] Speaker B: But it's always in exactly the place that you say. [00:31:12] Speaker A: Exactly. If you look for five extra seconds, you'll see it. Just put in the effort. And he also does. What I noticed is. What he does is the. You can see where Jamie learned. You could see in his psychology session where you can yell and show aggression and use space rather than necessarily words to demonstrate that aggression. So there's a big thing where if you're not yelling at a woman, but you get up really close, that's like, showing aggression, but still with, like, an out because you haven't done anything in heavy quotes. So you can see where Jamie used to learn that, like, learns to use that. Sorry. And then he also learned that it's okay to do that and then apologize afterwards and everything's fine. No responsibility needs to be taken. Like, oh, I'm sorry, we're good now. Right. Because the dad did that multiple times in the episode. [00:32:08] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It was always. Yeah. Kind of straight into, you know, let's Just ignore it. Let's get over the fact that you were just, like, wildly aggressive. And I thought, this is kind of making me think a little bit about who Jamie picked to go in with him, you know, when he was in the police place. His safe. [00:32:33] Speaker A: His, like, safe person or whatever it is. [00:32:35] Speaker B: Yeah, his safe person. And when, like, the mum and the dad were having the conversation, the mum was kind of like, oh, but why is picked you? She was like, sure. I think. I don't know if she even said something to the like, of, you know, like, he's closer with me or I don't know, something like that. Like, they were surprised that. That he picked the dad. And I wonder if that's something to do with, you know, when they, like, showed the video of, like, what happened and actually the mum never actually got to see the video. I wonder if there was something around Jamie feeling like his dad would almost be more accepting or understanding of kind of what happened rather than his mum. I don't know. What were your thoughts about that? [00:33:14] Speaker A: I think they were trying to portray that and just that, like, he respected his dad more. Like, because they admit at the end in the last episode that the mom knew him much better and probably would have been less surprised and affected by that video because. [00:33:29] Speaker B: Oh, do you think. [00:33:29] Speaker A: Yeah, well, if they. That's what they were said in the last. Yeah. And then also. What was I gonna say? I forget. But, yeah, I think they were trying to portray. Maybe the dad would be less judgmental, but also, you know, I don't know, easier to deal with, but. Oh, and I just think that they respected him more. Jamie respected his dad more and just thought, like, well, he's a man. But also, like you said that maybe he could relate to it better because he was denied it. And I doubt any of this was conscious. Right. It's not like Jamie at 13 was doing this analysis in their head. That's why it's so important to have those role models that make you behave a conscious unconsciously in a positive way. [00:34:14] Speaker B: Totally. [00:34:15] Speaker A: And there was a lot of casual sexism from the dad, like, throughout in this episode that I noticed. Like, when they got to the home improvement store and he says something around the lines of, like, what was it? Like, oh, you two go spend some money, you're good at it. That kind of thing. [00:34:35] Speaker B: Oh, okay. [00:34:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:36] Speaker B: See, I didn't even pick up on things like that. Do you think that the writers were putting that stuff in on purpose? [00:34:44] Speaker A: I think so. [00:34:44] Speaker B: Kind of. [00:34:45] Speaker A: I would assume so, because. But they are the Things that would slip by because they're, like, very normalized comments to make. But so. But when you're taking what's already patriarchal standards, that women are objects, which isn't like, no man that's a good person, that's not involved in this manosphere thing. No man would outwardly say that that's what they believe, and they wouldn't even consciously, necessarily believe that. But they do at a subconscious level, because we've been taught that. And it's not necessarily anyone's fault, but it's there. So I think they were trying to. So. [00:35:22] Speaker B: But. [00:35:22] Speaker A: But. Sorry, I have so many thoughts going around. But essentially, if you've already got that base, that patriarchal base where the women go spend money, casual sexism, you have this right to the space in your house. And you can use that to show aggression when people just make you feel uncomfortable. Not even, like, piss you off, but make you feel uncomfortable. You have this right to intimidate your family if you're already kind of in that base, but you're a good person because you don't hit your wife. Right. Jamie kept saying that in his psychology session. Then how much is it really gonna take to push you over that edge into violence? Not much. [00:36:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:36:03] Speaker A: So I think that's where it is. [00:36:05] Speaker B: And I guess you see that with the dad, like, with the kids on the bikes as well. Like, when they come out of the shop, like, that could so easily tip. I mean, arguably that was violence, but that could, you know, tip even further. And you also see it, I suppose, when they're in that. The kind of shop, and there is someone who seems to be perhaps within, like, the incel culture itself, who's kind of saying, like, we're behind you and things. And that's almost that. I don't know, like you say, because maybe it is quite subconscious. You can see the dad having quite a negative reaction and feeling quite uncomfortable with that. But actually, he's almost allowing that to be as part of the household. [00:36:48] Speaker A: And he won't know why. Like, there you can see the cognitive dissonance. You can see the confusion of why. Because, like, they've had a good life. They do fun stuff. They, like, do. They talked about how they provided everything he wanted. You know what I mean? And so I think it's just. Oh, and you know what? I have it as a. I wrote it down as a quote because this really stuck out to me. Remember in the psychology session, Jamie talked about his experience playing football or soccer. If you're in the States and his dad being there. And he was so happy that he was proud of him. But then you could see the shame. And his reaction to the psychologist when she tried to kind of get him to expand on that was really negative. And then seeing it from the dad's point of view, the quote was, I took him to the footy because I thought it would toughen him up. Problem number one, stood there as the other dads were laughing at him. Problem number two, he was looking, he was looking at me. So Jamie was looking at the dad and I couldn't look at my own boy. Problem number three. So here you have. Firstly, you're not good enough as my son as you are, you need to be tough to fit into these patriarchal standards, toxic masculinity standards, because toughness comes in so many different forms. You can be mentally tough, you can be, you know, you can have courage, you can do a lot of things right. So stood there as other dads were laughing at him. So he's clearly ingrained in this like hyper masculine environment. There's a group of grown adults laughing at him for not possessing these qualities. And then he, when his dad, his son looked at him for encouragement, he couldn't even look at his own son because of the shame he was feeling, because his own son wasn't fitting into these patriarchal standards. That made me really upset to hear. And I was just like. And then you're sitting there crying because you're confused about why this happened. Like you can't draw a direct link. Right? We're talking about nuance here and we're talking about how there's the clear issues surrounding role modeling and then there's the real villains, which are the social media algorithm and the Andrew Tates and the Elon Musks who design these algorithms and these platforms like Twitter now X that are that on purpose feed people this kind of stuff. So it's a lot of nuance, but it starts in the home. [00:39:06] Speaker B: Yeah, it's almost like given me a new light. Like as you were speaking then to the work that we do with parents. So especially when I was working in tennis academy, I did a lot of work with the parents in terms of their kind of off court behavior or kind of the behavior whilst they're watching their kids, like playing. But then this almost like puts a whole nother like light on why that is so important. It's not just about how is this like supporting their performance, but it's even, especially for like the boys, like linked to this sort of stuff. Like, I know, like, I remember once, you know, you'd have players who would talk to you and be like, oh, yeah, if I start losing, Then I noticed that, like, my parents, they just. They leave and it's like, oh, it. [00:40:01] Speaker A: Just breaks my heart. [00:40:03] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's like things like that when I guess I hadn't really thought about it in terms of potential implications in terms of this and how that perpetuates, I guess, these ideas around toxic masculinity or that need to be, I don't know if you want to call it top tier or whatever. [00:40:28] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I think that's something we're massively missing out on in sport and broadly as well, is, like, focusing on good masculinity. Because big, like, part of masculinity and femininity are concepts that have, like, some core values, right? And you can be a masculine woman, you can be a feminine man. So we're not saying that they come with being a man or woman. They just have been, and they usually are, because that's what we're socialized with and all that kind of stuff. But there are really positive aspects of masculinity, like being a protector, providing, having courage. And not to say some of those things aren't part of femininity, but, like, they're like the big, like, being somebody that somebody can lean on, that kind of thing. And they're all really positive, lovely aspects of masculinity. And, like, I can. I can trust you and I know that you got my back. Like, that kind of stuff. Like, there's some really lovely aspects of it that have just been twisted into this toxic thing that because of the way our brains are wired and how we've been socialized by these shit shows of systems that we've got in place, they're just more attractive. And the algorithm feeds what gains more reaction out of people. So, yeah, want to check in there, get your thoughts on this? So, having been kind of ingrained in the online discourse a little bit about it this week, I was looking at some of the kind of manosphere type guys who had been really into this content when they were younger, but then when they got into their later 20s, early 30s, they changed and realized that it was kind of all bullshit, right? So when they were reflecting, I was listening to one of them who was saying, like, a lot of it did start when girls were mean in school because, you know, high school, I mean, middle schoolers suck like, like teenage girl. But you know, what is, they use their words because they can't use their fists. They've developed, like, really hard hitting, like, cutting stuff, because they're not getting in physical fights necessarily. So he said, you know, I was bullied at school by a girl, and it was terrible. And the teachers didn't do anything about it because I just, like, feel like teachers are so overwhelmed. We need a lot of fixing in our educational systems and a lot of stems from that. But because he wasn't physically allowed to hurt her or harm her anymore because of the changes in regulations, he then started to turn to Andrew Tate and Jordan Peterson because he didn't. Because he felt so entitled to harm her because of what he was experiencing negatively from her, like, physically harm her, he turned to the misogyny. Does that make sense? [00:43:22] Speaker B: Yeah. So it was almost, I guess, as a way to almost like, validate his experience or his. His beliefs that he should be able to do this. And actually, it's almost like that system that's. That's broken, rather than him and his wants or desires or whatever. [00:43:42] Speaker A: Definitely, like you said, the system's broken. Every aspect of this scenario, breaking it down into contextual bits is the girl being mean is terrible. There's likely reasons for this to do with schooling and having to develop this kind of bullying behavior. There's a reason middle school girls are notoriously mean. It's because you have to develop that as a survival mechanism. And boys, when they have issues, are allowed to fight it out. And so it can come across as much harsher when girls are bullying in heavy quotes because you're not allowed to do physical fights so much in school anymore. So. And boys haven't necessarily developed or had to develop that kind of, like, cutting, like, verbal bullying, which is good. We don't want anyone bullying. Right. But it's just like. It's just like looking at the nuance of why all this is happening. And then he felt, because of everything, so entitled to physical violence as his only way of solving a problem that he turned to them. [00:44:45] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think what's tough is this. This kind of. Is that, like, victim blame and stuff. Right. And it's the. I guess, kind of in this case of, like, adolescents and like, Jamie, it's like, but he was bullied, you know, almost like. Yeah, but he was bullied. So you know that that's why it happened. And it's then putting the blame on. On the girl. Right. For this. I'm not saying that, like you say, it's not. Not saying that bullying is a good thing, but it's like, why does that focus then get thrown or shifted so easily onto the victim? [00:45:23] Speaker A: You know, and it happens all the time. I mean, even in episode two, the. The woman cop says, no one's going to remember Katie's name. They're going to all remember Jamie. They're going to remember us. They're not going to remember the victim. They never do. And there's a reason in the news, in the media, there's a term the perfect victim. You know, oh, she went to all of her classes, she never drank. She was the nicest person ever. Like, if somebody like, murdered me, they probably would not call me the perfect victim. You know what I mean? She had it, everyone. She had it coming. I had it coming. But again, looking at this context, Katie was literally sexually assaulted by an entire school. She sends a picture to a boy because he asked for it. And then he went on and shared this to the entire school. And they made fun of her physically, psychologically. Jamie tried to take advantage of her, saying, okay, well now she is weak. Literally. Literally the term he used. And so I might have a chance. And he didn't even really say he found her attractive. Activist, just because that was my moment. Right? And she responds by being quite rude to him, like, and turning him down and saying, like, at the, at the carnival and say, like, rudely turning him down. Right. And then doing some like, red pill emojis. Like, she was literally sexually assaulted I. On social media because this happened. Women are doing the same thing in terms of saying they internalize. Misogyny is crazy. They're saying she deserved it or like she led to it. Somebody comments. I don't usually do comments on my social media because I don't want to get in these fights. But this woman said people should also talk about Jade. So, like, the friend, the best friend, she acted as though her friend was angelic when actually she was the enabler of it all. So she's calling Katie the enabler. And I said, wait, you think having an emotional and defensive reaction towards a boy after being sexually harassed by her entire school makes her the enabler of her own murder? And then I said, check your internalized misogyny. But like, this idea, this idea that, like, by having a legitimate reaction to being sexually harassed by an entire school, you have enabled your own murder is crazy. [00:47:46] Speaker B: It's like when you hear about, you know, like, girls, like, wearing like, promiscuous clothing or whatever, and actually they're the ones that enabled the rape, you know? [00:47:57] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like there's this online account I Think it's in person too. That basically says like it uses the term what were you wearing? Because that's so consistently asked by the media and in courts. And the idea is what were you wearing when you were assaulted? And it's literally clothes ranging from like wedding dresses to full like jeans and a top. Like it doesn't matter. It would have happened no matter what because these people suck. [00:48:28] Speaker B: And I think coming. Yeah, I suppose kind of in line with this. I think I was talking to my sister about this, but how like I'll see online like, you know, parents who are like teaching their like daughters to set boundaries. So, you know, saying if they like don't want to hug, like making sure that it's like their decision or whatever and like building these boundaries of consent and things and getting their daughters to be able to. Yeah. Put this into place. Right. Just in, in the real world. And it's almost like, it's almost like, okay, we can get girls to do that, which is amazing. But actually if then like the, the boys and the men don't know how to respond or receive that, then that's where there's almost this, like, this stuff, you know, potentially happens in worst case scenario where a woman is kind of in an acceptable way, say setting her boundaries. But then from people say from like these incel cultures, they don't accept that as an answer. So then that's the key, that's the. [00:49:37] Speaker A: Key word is they don't accept it because if they're so entitled, they're entitled to everything. And I think that's why probably every woman who watches this show. Not every, because I just discussed like the internalized misogyny that happens. But actually no, even these women with internalized misogyny are probably not surprised by the outcome. We have disagreeing versions as to why it happened. But I don't think any woman was necessarily surprised or like taken aback. Right. Because rejection to men always comes with a risk. You know, the. It's always saying no to a man, even if the no is a boundary, as in like space time. Just like, I don't want to date you. Not interested in that. That always comes with a risk. And so some women might think that we. It's our duty to appease that to minimize the risk. And some women might go, it's not my job. I don't care about like trying to be safe all the time. I need to establish this boundary. But then imagine being a young girl with your parents teaching you how to set these boundaries and then going like, well, when the hell am I supposed to use these boundaries? Because that means I could be sexually harassed in my school or I could be punched or I could be literally murdered, you know? [00:50:55] Speaker B: Yeah. And this, I guess, is where we, like, when we are talking about, like, sexism in sport and things we're so often reinforcing. Like, you know, it's great to do these things, but we also need to think about our own safety in that situation. Yeah. [00:51:13] Speaker A: That makes me kind of think about the episode three with a psychologist. What did you think of that episode? [00:51:20] Speaker B: I loved it. [00:51:21] Speaker A: Yeah, me too. [00:51:22] Speaker B: So it's Was not scary, but you could sense the discomfort. Right. And you could. It's like. And I was thinking how it's like, such a different way to, like, how we would practice. Right. She's having to be a lot more direct and trying to be. I suppose she was like. You can tell she's trying to give him space for him to lead, but actually the danger of allowing him to lead is so high that sometimes she was having to really kind of be more direct and kind of take that controlling space as the psychologist, which is something, I guess, that is not necessarily what we see in, like, a traditional counseling and, like, therapy session. [00:52:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:52:08] Speaker B: I was also so angry when he knocked over his hot chocolate and then. [00:52:14] Speaker A: Immediately asked for another one. I know. [00:52:16] Speaker B: And I was so glad that she, I guess, forgot. I was like, he does not deserve another hot chocolate again. [00:52:22] Speaker A: Entitlement. Entitlement. I'm sorry. You're the one who knocked it off in your fit of anger. [00:52:27] Speaker B: And she brings him a sandwich and he doesn't. He doesn't want the pickles in it. It's like, Jesus. Like, come on. Like, I'm a picky eater, but. [00:52:35] Speaker A: But if I was, like, in jail, I'd probably, like, be less picky. [00:52:38] Speaker B: Probably. [00:52:39] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And then when he, like, took a bite and at the end when she tried to wrap it up and just, like, physically couldn't because she was so disgusted by the whole experience. Experience. I found it so interesting. So I watched this with Jack, which was really, like, fun because it's always good to get somebody else's kind of perspective on it. And he's all giddy. The episode because it's. I don't know, it's kind of our bread and butter stuff as psychologists, isn't it? Like, she does it in a different way. But it was quite interesting to see because when she walks in, she's quite like, before she starts the session, she's quite. Oh, Thorin's Literally pushing me thoroughly. He's pushing my rolly chair. [00:53:16] Speaker B: Dude. I need to be in the middle. [00:53:20] Speaker A: Where am I now? She, like, when she goes into the security guard, she's like, tough. She's laser focused. She's super clever. [00:53:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:53:28] Speaker A: And then her demeanor changes so much when she goes into the room with him. It's crazy. [00:53:33] Speaker B: And like, before she. Yeah, before she goes in, it's like she almost seems. I don't really like using this word, but she. Oh, I don't know, she seems kind of nervous. She seems very like, shy and a bit almost like on edge, I think, before she went in as well. But then she gets in there and it's almost like it felt like she became more confident, I think, in front of him. [00:53:58] Speaker A: What I thought was, I think she was just annoyed with the damn security guard because he was annoying. [00:54:02] Speaker B: Do you think? [00:54:03] Speaker A: I think she was just. I don't think she was shy. I think she just didn't want to. [00:54:07] Speaker B: Talk to him and she was focused, like, on edge. I. I sense like an on edgeness. [00:54:12] Speaker A: Really? That's so interesting. [00:54:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:54:14] Speaker A: I mean, the security guard was so annoying. And it's like the. He also felt very entitled to her space and her time. [00:54:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:54:22] Speaker A: The note here to discuss it with you. The experience. [00:54:25] Speaker B: Gosh. Yeah. [00:54:26] Speaker A: It's so typical. No, I know. It's so difficult to. Our experience, isn't it? Like, she went in, he wouldn't stop talk. She's staring in the cameras, trying to focus. And he's just like entitled to her time. [00:54:40] Speaker B: And he. And he's like. He says something like, oh, I've been on like an a behavioral analysis, like, course or something. Almost like, this is. Yeah, I can do like, what are you looking for? [00:54:51] Speaker A: And it's like, oh, my goodness, I'm. [00:54:54] Speaker B: Trying to do my job. [00:54:56] Speaker A: Yeah. Literally when she goes back in, look at the cameras and observe him and he says that. And then he keeps talking and like, ask, what are you looking at? What are you looking at? What are you looking at? And like making it all about him instead of what she's trying to do. And then at the end, he starts basically giving her all this. This happens to me all the time jacket. Like, oh, just kind of laughs, but also tries to save me. But it usually happens when he's not there is like, they start telling you their own traumas and like this getting. Trying to get like some free psychology session. She's like, I'm literally. [00:55:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:55:28] Speaker A: To work. That's so typical. I feel like, of our experience and like, the woman psychology experience, especially in non one to one sessions. Just like the shit show. Leave me alone. [00:55:40] Speaker B: Definitely don't tell anyone you're a psychologist because you'll just get all that stuff. [00:55:46] Speaker A: Jack has that rule now because when he tells people I'm a psychologist, then they just want to ask like even just like the guy at our gym that kind of like does the scanning things. Jack was like, oh, I told him you're a psychologist. I was like, why did you do that? And then the next time I go to the gym, which is like my safe zone, he comes in, he's like, so I have a, like a mental trainer or whatever and I'd love to get your idea. I'm like, no, no you are not. [00:56:16] Speaker B: Sorry. No, you are not. [00:56:18] Speaker A: I am sorry. No. Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, it's like slight tangent but that. [00:56:27] Speaker B: Episode, I was excited for that episode and it's just. And as well like just the way it's filmed is just so good in like the one shot like takes. It's so like engrossing. Like you say some bits are kind of uncomfortable, especially like the school bits. But I thought especially like that fourth episode, like when they're in the car and it's like that I thought was quite. Yeah. Engrossing almost to see those conversations seeming like so natural and then the building almost of the emotions and trying to like shift to a more positive like happy place in the past and then, and then basically just being triggered, you know, when he was like going into the shop. [00:57:09] Speaker A: Yeah. Being fairly triggered. You know what that just made me think of as well, we're talking about like gender roles and the importance of parents. I want to flip it onto the daughter. So if you notice when, like towards the end of the episode when you know, he's changed to potentially go back out to the movies and he's changed into that blue top. And the mom comes in and straight away goes, oh, is that the top I got you? He says, yeah. The first thing the daughter does when she comes up like 20 minutes later, oh, is that the top mom got you? It just shows you how ingrained the kind of cycles and normalized kind of like questions and movements and dynamics are for each person. It just made me think like that for some reason made so many bells go off in my head. And I just like wonder how on purpose, like sometimes I just think they had a psychologist involved in making the show because you'll see like. And then she goes downstairs to do breakfast with her mom and. But none of it's super obvious it's there. [00:58:10] Speaker B: No, because I didn't even pick up on. I didn't pick up on that. So it's not. Yeah. It's the kind of impact, I guess, of the role modeling and how easily we pick up behaviors and so on from. Yeah, from our parents. [00:58:24] Speaker A: Yeah. It was a really interesting show to watch as a psychologist and an infuriating show to watch as a woman and kind of person that works in misogyny. [00:58:37] Speaker B: 100%. Yes. [00:58:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:58:41] Speaker B: And I suppose. I don't know. Is it useful if we go on to thinking about impact of this stuff? [00:58:47] Speaker A: Let's do it. [00:58:48] Speaker B: Societal kind of implications? [00:58:51] Speaker A: Definitely. [00:58:52] Speaker B: I think something we wanted to, like, touch on. I mean, obviously it has brought a lot of attention to, like, these incel kind of cultures and, like, what happens online. And I think you hear more people talking about, you know, if, like, my son just goes up to his room in the evening, like, what a. I don't know what they're doing and that stuff that, like, I think when we were kids, like, you would do that, but there wasn't this same worry. I think now there is a lot of concern about what are they actually engaging with when they are on their own. And I guess this has kind of spurred some stuff, like in the UK around, like the Prime Minister, like, feeling the need to. What's the quote? Tackle the emerging and growing problem raised by this TV drama. So saying that the issues raised in adolescence were a matter of culture and that it's important across the whole house that we tackle this problem. And so I think it has been taken into Parliament to discuss. But, Kristen, I know you have intense thoughts. [01:00:03] Speaker A: So, guys, we have, like, just a brief outline of topics we might want to talk about. And I wrote on this, Kristen has intense thoughts about this. Because I do. In capital letters. Because I do. Because even just like, I started conceptualizing my thoughts about this watching the last episode because I. Jack mentioned to me the same thing, and I was like, okay. And it just, like, drove, like, a. Like a physical reaction out of me because on one hand, you know what? That's amazing. I'm gonna go on a little rant. [01:00:40] Speaker B: I've. [01:00:40] Speaker A: I've got some stuff to say. So this is probably one of the most frustrating things about this whole thing, this whole situation. I am glad that the show is making such an impact. I am thrilled that it's making an impact. The positive impacts that it's making you seem super thrilled. I'm glad that it. It resonated. It Hit such a chord with people. Right. I'm so glad that something might be done about it finally. So I'll just start there. Okay? [01:01:11] Speaker B: Okay. [01:01:12] Speaker A: But you seem scared. Downhill from here. Yes, but. But it makes me so upset and so mad to the point that like when Jack and I were talking about it the other day, I almost wanted to cry. And you know me, I'm not a crier. But it's like a cry of rage. It's probably a big part of that rage that lies beneath. Like we discussed that feminine rage. Girls and women have been saying for years, for decades, for centuries that we are the victims of male entitlement and male violence. It's been in the news, it's been on social media, it's out there. It's not covered enough as it should be. Right. And it's not covered as often as it happens. But we've been shouting from the rooftops. A woman is killed in the UK every three days on average. Violence against women and girls has become so normalized that perpetrators assault. Perpetrators of assault who are men are given lesser sentences because they don't want to ruin these guys futures. Like we've seen it in the news countless times. Like oh, but he has such a good future ahead of him. We wouldn't want to ruin it because of one mistake if he like assaulted a woman. Right. There are currently suggestions floating around that we should use in quotes, brain dead women to grow and deliver babies. Yes. Yep, it's floating around. There is so much entitlement to our bodies that literal corpses have more rights than living women. You need to agree to donate organs after you pass away. Right. Women's don't. Women don't have that right in most of America at this point. And that to make a choice about. [01:03:02] Speaker B: Whether they donate their organs. [01:03:04] Speaker A: No, it's about if they're going to have a child or not. [01:03:06] Speaker B: Oh, right, okay. [01:03:08] Speaker A: And this entitlement extends to do to what we do with our time, to where we work. Women have always worked, it's just not been paid labor. Our entrance into the workforce that allows us to gain capital has become so threatening to men that they see this as an actual reason for men's resentment for their harassment and making actual laws that make it more difficult to enact our own agencies as human beings rather than objects to be consumed one way or another. Okay. And this is so sorry, I'm getting really heated. This is so common that we have several movements trying to fight against it and fighting back or not fitting into the mold expected, expected of Us, even though there's no real way to win, taking up any space, just existing in personhood entitles men to violence in this system. And all of this happens. Women have been shouting from the rooftop for ages. Like I said, decades. Centuries. People didn't care before it was sensationalized until it was from the perspective of the boy, the dad, the man cop. And this is why we're so damn pissed off. This is why I'm pissed off. So not only is every single thing we do monitored and judged, not only are we excited, expected to be objects that provide children pleasure, unpaid labor purely because we're women, we're pissed off because when we speak out about how horrible this is and the violence, no one listens. So this is not an emerging and growing problem, Keir Starmer. It is there. It's been there, and it's been there to address. So that's just, like, pissed me off. I'm glad I got that off my chest, because I feel like it's. [01:04:52] Speaker B: I'm glad you. [01:04:53] Speaker A: I feel. [01:04:53] Speaker B: I feel I've taken some of that rage away from you. [01:04:56] Speaker A: I'm so sor. Sorry, Laura. We watched this two days ago, and it's just build. Been building, like, in my head, like, trying to understand, like, where the. Why did I feel this way? This is an important thing to do, guys. If you're having a visceral emotional reaction to something, especially because on the surface, it seems like such a positive, but, like, if you're having such a visceral. You need to explore why that's happening. And I've. So I think I've been able to conceptualize why. And I feel better now. I feel, like, good. [01:05:26] Speaker B: I'm glad. [01:05:27] Speaker A: I don't feel great, but I feel better. [01:05:29] Speaker B: No, and I think it is, again, it's like this thing around. Yeah. Women don't get listened to unless it's reiterated by a man or, like, in this case, from a man's perspective. Right. And I think it almost feels to me like when they say they're bringing this up, it's not like they're bringing this up in. I don't know. From my initial hearing, it doesn't feel like they're bringing it up in order to support women. They're bringing it up in order to support men. You know, they're bringing it up in order to support. To try and make sure that they're not, like, getting into trouble and making sure that they're being raised, like, Right. I suppose. Which is lovely. That's fantastic. But it doesn't feel like the focus is on protecting girls and women. [01:06:18] Speaker A: It's such a good point. [01:06:19] Speaker B: Protecting men and boys. [01:06:22] Speaker A: Oh, the rage is back. [01:06:24] Speaker B: No, no, sorry, gave it back. [01:06:28] Speaker A: We're just transferring rage to each other. Oh my God, that is such a good point and like a really good critique to keep in mind as they continue with this. And I think it's something that, you know, four constituents should definitely tell them like that, yes, this is important. But also let's think about what the focus is as well. Yeah, yeah, definitely. So I guess that's kind of like where we are now. [01:06:57] Speaker B: This is where we are. Shall we give a reflective question? [01:07:02] Speaker A: Yes, go for it. We'll hear a nice calming voice. [01:07:05] Speaker B: Let's say I'll try and be calm and not rageful. So. So I think it's really again, and I think like often we kind of suggest is just engaging in these conversations, listening, I suppose to what people are saying online, but listening with a bit of a critical eye, I suppose, looking I suppose to see if there are any kind of things online that are trying to combat like online misogyny and kind of promote healthy masculinity. So again, we're not just saying all masculinity is bad, but actually looking at healthy masculinity promoting that. Especially if there are any people kind of listening who might have kind of sons who are like around this sort of age thinking about how do you promote that healthy masculinity and how can we become a bit more aware, I suppose about how we might be acting as role models for young people. [01:08:10] Speaker A: Totally. Yeah. I think it's. Most of our reflections are about just awareness. But if you can pivot that awareness to this issue, that would be great in whatever capacity that you do have, whether it's yelling at Keir Starmer or you know, password protected protections on your kids phones, just being a little more aware of what they're doing, seeing what the schools are doing. Just anything really, just any step forward is positive. So I guess on that note, we're gonna leave you with that. I will take our rage into our day. [01:08:52] Speaker B: It's like after you do a meditation, it's like, you know, take this feeling into your day, throughout your day. But now it's like, no, take your rage through your. [01:08:59] Speaker A: Take your rage. I'm going to go teach about communication development in 20 minutes. So thank you all for listening. As usually as, oh God, I'm done now after that rant, as usual, we probably have more questions than answers. But we enjoyed exploring the show Adolescence didn't leave you with any questions, make sure to comment and let us know. We'd also love to know if you have any topics you'd like us to explore, so get in touch. Be sure to like, follow or engage however your platform allows and tell your friends and you can find us on all the social medias. The link is in our Instagram and in the show notes. So remember, the first step to understanding is asking but why? Yay.