Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
Welcome to the but why podcast, where we explore the human experience through a psychological.
[00:00:21] Speaker B: Psychological.
[00:00:24] Speaker A: As I was talking, I was thinking how in our rebranding, we're probably going to change this a little bit. And then I stopped focusing on what I was reading, so I was literally.
[00:00:33] Speaker B: Thinking the exact same thing.
That's fun.
[00:00:37] Speaker A: All right, let's try this one more time. And if I fail, this is just what the intro is gonna be.
Welcome to the but why podcast, where we explore the human experience through a psychological lens by asking but why? Nailed it. I'm Dr. Kristen.
[00:00:53] Speaker B: And I'm Dr. Laura. And today we're exploring why is it big basic when women love it. So this is around to the psychological psychology. The psychological.
[00:01:04] Speaker A: Neither of us can say psychology.
[00:01:06] Speaker B: I'm gonna start again. Okay. Today we're exploring why is it basic when women love it? So the psychology of gendered taste and cultural legitimacy. They are a lot of words.
[00:01:19] Speaker A: They are a lot of words. And Laura and I have learned to today that we cannot speak. So good luck to everyone trying to understand what we're saying.
[00:01:29] Speaker B: Hopefully it will become clear what we mean by this as we continue with.
[00:01:34] Speaker A: The as we attempt to continue this Friday for us guys, there's a lot of marking and writing and stuff going on in the background. There's a lot of trouble.
[00:01:43] Speaker B: Talk to me about marking. Yes. Did the marking and trauma go hand in hand?
[00:01:49] Speaker A: I feel like sometimes the marking is. Distracts me enough from what's going on in the world. Like by the end of a long day of marking, say like 10 hours, I don't. I'm just tired, so I don't have the capacity to speak to anyone or look at the Internet. Aside from like my initial check in in the morning to see what changed overnight.
And then that's it from me.
[00:02:13] Speaker B: Unless, like, you're marking an assessment which has something to do with like gender or sexism, and then you just start to get more annoyed because it's like, what are you writing about? This is such a taught you. Have I not taught you better than this?
[00:02:27] Speaker A: Like, literally, I taught you the exact opposite of this. What are you talking about? You know who's marking your paper.
I get it a lot as well. I get it. I've graded less. That had to do with like, gender. But I get a lot of people covering autism and ADHD because I do some clinical well being masters. And in my teaching, I say if you're writing in a deficit based way or like a really problematic way, I will pick up on this. Don't do that. Obviously you have to, to note like the pros and cons and not just say, oh, you can only be fully one way or the other. But if I'm seeing kind of like that really deficit based language that I'm like, I will pay attention to this. And so sometimes I'm reading things and I'm like, so you think autistic people are dumb? Do you not realize I literally had a student say to me like, so can I use this type of therapy with autistic people? Because they just don't comprehend anything. And I'm like twitching, oh my goodness, like whenever I introduce myself to a class I say that I'm autistic and I'm like, either you just don't remember or you really just truly don't believe that you've just said something really harmful.
So I just in my really soft and like nice way that I like to deliver things, just go, well I'm autistic and I think I'm comprehending quite a bit.
[00:03:58] Speaker B: Yeah, she seems to understand what you're saying.
[00:04:01] Speaker A: Yeah. What are you saying? Yeah, and like there's also such a misunderstanding that even if an autistic person is non verbal or non communicative or they choose not to communicate in that moment in one way or another that they're not comprehending and that's such a harmful idea as well. I think I'm on a bit of a autism rage like situation at the moment with everything going on in the U.S. it's so dangerous.
[00:04:28] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I don't blame you too.
[00:04:31] Speaker A: Have you seen much about it?
[00:04:33] Speaker B: I've seen, yeah, some posts online about, well, I might get this wrong but around like them trying to like basically access people's medical records. Right. If they're autistic. And to me it almost sounds like trying to segregate autistic people, but I'm not really, I don't know. Tell me why, why exactly are they wanting to do this?
[00:04:56] Speaker A: So it goes back to Project 2025. It was all written out, you know, pretty explicitly. RFK has been like anti vax and weird about neurodivergence for a long time. And firstly he believes that autism is inherently bad. And then he also believes that it's caused by environmental factors like vaccine or maternal consumption. So let's bring the blame the pregnant woman so we can control their bodies more. And so firstly it's this idea that, that autism is inherently bad and that's literally what led to. I don't know if you know, do you know anything about Action T4 in Germany?
So essentially Action T4 was the Nazis trial runs for kind of their broader extermination of Jewish people. And anyone that didn't fit that eugenics vibe.
[00:05:51] Speaker B: Is this where it comes in with the Asperger's stuff as well? Is that what. So they, when they were doing that research and almost trying to prove that there were some people who were autistic who were like able to like, what's the word? Give to society.
[00:06:09] Speaker A: Yes, essentially. And RFK parroted that idea like, well, autistic people, they will never pay taxes. Like, oh, is that, that's just what you want from us is our taxes. You don't actually care about. If you cared about the well being of people, you would do universal basic health care. You wouldn't start tracking people's personal health data.
So it's just really, it's really problematic. It's just like he's firstly, he's framing it as like this public health crisis that like autistic people are to be feared, to be fixed, to kind of like be erased. And he's just really not protecting anyone. He's feeling the stigma. It's literally the basis of eugenics thinking.
And the problem is to some people which I've seen and engaged with online, it sounds like concern. So let's fix a problem because obviously there isn't enough support for autistic people or people with autistic children or autism in the family. And that's very true.
But it's. So some people are like, you're being a bit alarmist about it, but they don't really see the big picture. I think to a lot of autistic people it's a bit of a dog whistle that calls back to that Action T4 thing. Yes. And Action T4 wasn't just about autistic people, it was about euthanasia of disabled people. And so that's why they were able to justify like the Aspergers. Aspergers don't know how the right way to say it thing. But I always say essentially if you are Asperger's, which isn't a thing anymore, it's, it's like autism, then you're, you deserve to be alive because you can contribute to society. And that's where we get our current dsm. So Diagnostic Statistical Manual criteria from is basically the wealthy white boys that survived that through an Asperger's diagnosis where anyone that was more marginalized, so anyone who wasn't white women and girls with autism, they were all euthanized in these cases, camps. And so that basically set the stage for the rest of the camps. And so it's just really harmful to see this kind of rhetoric being spewed by somebody who is literally the head of our country's Health and Human Services.
[00:08:26] Speaker B: And I think this is something that bothers me as well, is like he just doesn't know. Like, he just obviously has no, like, deep understanding of autism, you know, and it's like, how dangerous to be in that position and like you say, to be sharing this rhetoric around it. Like, if, you know, I think autism is so misunderstood anyway. Like, it's only something I've really started to learn more about in the last, like, couple of years. So it's like, yeah, it's just going to be continuing to amplify these really dangerous narratives and misunderstanding around it.
[00:09:08] Speaker A: He's a lawyer. He's not. He doesn't have anything to do with health. He's a lawyer. So, like, I mean, he sucks as a person, but if you're really gonna like, try and use him for what his expertise is, then put him somewhere that a lawyer would be useful. Not the head of Health and Human Services.
But yeah, anyway, that I have a little rant. I've. I've been told multiple times in the last 24 hours that I have ruined my family because I'm autistic. I've been also told that I'm not autistic because I can write on type online.
I've been, yeah, it's been a. It's been a wild ride. And also spoken through kind of on TikTok and Instagram to a few people who are on path to get their assessment. And now they're really nervous to do so. And so it's like really, really shitty that people are now having to choose, okay, between appropriate support through diagnosis. Not to say that if you're diagnosed and not also not to say that diagnosis is the only way to kind of identify as autistic. Because self diagnoses can be really, really useful.
But some people really want that diagnosis so they can actually get the support. But then they have to choose between that and like physical safety. Because to answer your initial question, the idea is you've heard of his ADHD and autism or his neurodivergent farms. That was floated a few months ago, right?
[00:10:40] Speaker B: No.
[00:10:41] Speaker A: Yes. Oh my God. There were so many jokes about it on our side. Like, yes, put all the neurodivergent people on a farm together. Like, yeah, because he sees problems.
[00:10:51] Speaker B: We Might prefer it to be.
[00:10:52] Speaker A: I know that's what, that's what all the jokes were like. Just put a bunch of unmedicated ADHD and autistic people all together. Everyone has like a special interest in like probably some kind of craft that would be super useful or like swords or like something like that. How long do you think that's gonna last for? But that's been floated. Like it's just like it's a really terrible time to be somebody with great pattern recognition and a love for history and a knowledge of psychology.
[00:11:25] Speaker B: Oh yeah, yeah.
[00:11:28] Speaker A: But people are getting a little nervous to be diagnosed at the moment, which is upsetting.
[00:11:33] Speaker B: Yeah, no, definitely. And I was reading something online about it and I think it was literally just on Reddit. So this is not like, you know, like very well sourced paper.
[00:11:44] Speaker A: You're floating around Reddit.
[00:11:46] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do look at Reddit for things. I quite like Reddit.
[00:11:51] Speaker A: Reddit's fun.
[00:11:53] Speaker B: So. And again, I think someone was talking about kind of this fear around kind of what's going to happen with their information. And there was a, I don't know, there must have been a psychologist or some sort of health practitioner who diagnoses like autism and things. And they were saying, you know, I would never be giving up that, that information. Like that is so unethical for me to give that up.
But I guess it's there. It's like, well, where does the power lie? So, you know, I guess people who are psychologists and they are kind of diagnosing, they're going to be understanding why this shouldn't be shared. And from their perspective it's probably not. But then it's where does that power come from and who actually has the rights to take that information? You know, where is, where is it, where is it and who has access to it anyway?
[00:12:45] Speaker A: Well, some states, I learned yesterday, have mandatory reporting and right now it's more so that they can coordinate support. I have a real issue with mandatory reporting of like any disability or like anything like that. But it's mandatory for health providers to report that information to the state, but other people don't. But what they're going to be using is information from prescription pickup. So like that's going to extend to adhd. They're going to, you know, like health, like a fitness watch or whatever data, which you kind of consent to having your data shared when you agree to a lot of this stuff.
So yeah, they're going to use basically everything.
[00:13:28] Speaker B: So I've been going through the autism diagnosis process recently. Like, literally in like the last few weeks.
[00:13:36] Speaker A: It's a great time for it. Great time.
[00:13:38] Speaker B: Well, exactly. And that's what you said to me in a message, like, wow, like, what a time to like, be going through this, where everything is, like, happening in terms of, of, well, in America. I was like, oh, my God, like, I didn't even think about that.
But I think it does kind of put it in, into my mind of like, oh, my God, why am I. Why am I doing this? Like, am I just going to be like, stabbing myself in the back? And I did mention it to the woman who was doing my diagnosis because obviously she was like, oh, we can get you like a GP letter or like a letter for work. And I'm thinking, who do I want to actually have this information? Because I think one of my reasons for doing it was more like to help myself, to try and support myself and prioritize my own preferences and needs and so on. Not necessarily for other people to change, like, their interactions with me. Do you know what I mean? So I think it's then just that balance of, well, I guess, like you were saying, it's almost like stopping me from, like, getting support from other areas in life. I wouldn't say I'm particularly high support needs or anything, but, yeah, I can imagine for a lot of people it's something that's hard to make a decision on, especially when we're almost in this limbo phase where it's like, what does this actually mean? How is this actually going to be affecting people? We just don't know yet and we don't know how far that's going to go. Is that going to stay in America? Is it going to come more over here to UK and Europe? We just don't know.
[00:15:15] Speaker A: I am absolutely terrified about stuff moving over this way. Like, I'm already stressed for everyone back home, but I'm terrified because you can see some of the stuff coming over here, like the misogyny stuff, you can see some of the attack on, like, trans rights and things like that. I would say the. The UK has always been a bit more.
A bit less progressive, I would almost say, in terms of gender ideology.
So it's not surprising that that's kind of like a bit of an issue here. But it does stress me out. And it is also, like, back to your point, it depends on how much you want to use your diagnosis for support, say, at work.
I think we're very lucky and I think we both did this naturally because of our autism. Leaving the full time Sport environment. Because it is so hard.
I'm writing a paper on it right now and we're lucky working kind of mostly within academia because I would imagine so many more people are autistic in academia than we even know. And there's a num. There's a level of flexibility to work from home. You can hyper focus, you can deal with your special interests. It's about stuff we love. And so it's almost like I don't even need to ask for supports half the time because the environment is very conducive to my needs and my boss knows because I'm obviously very vocal about it because I feel that I have a duty to do so. Yeah, because. And I don't think everyone has the duty but because I have the capacity and some kind of internal rage just fueling me. I feel like I just like, like I was talking to Jack last night, I was like I really don't know my boundaries. Like I don't know when to stop, like how to decide when, what to. What to do and what not to do, how to look after myself. And he was like, well yeah, it's hard because you have to, this is. Equity is your special interest, you can't not do that. But then it obviously impacts my well being so much when I'm getting all these attacks online and like, and I feel all this injustice so intensely and so like that balance and I just think it's going to just be a cyclical situation. But anyway, that was a bit of a tangent.
[00:17:42] Speaker B: No, I think it's so interesting because one of the things I think we always get told, if there is something that is in the news that is very challenging, people often say just try and switch off from it for a while, just don't look at it. And I think especially from your perspective that's can't just ignore it, that's just not an option. Do you know what I mean?
I think for me it is somewhat of an option. I feel like it's less of an option than it used to be because I think it's for me I don't want the ignorance of not knowing. But I think especially for you, that's a no go zone. You're not going to just switch off from it. And so I think that does then make it really challenging like you say, to almost find that balance.
[00:18:31] Speaker A: I have no idea what that balance is and I feel lucky to have the privilege and capacity to be able to do some helpful stuff. But at the same time sometimes I'm like, I Wish this wasn't like, why can't my brain only be focused on, I don't know, something way more fun? Why can't I just. I love Sailor Moon. Why can't I love that more than. Yeah, just, just, just.
[00:18:56] Speaker B: Yeah, just go watch Lord of the Rings instead and get annoyed about their politics and stuff.
[00:19:02] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And then. But every time I'm watching Lord of the Rings, I'm like, this is the exact. Like, if you want to look at positive, this is what I'm talking about. We were watching Wheel. Jack was like, let's get something on to distract you. And then we were watching Wheel of Time. Then I was like, but this is like. Exactly. And then he was like, all right, we're going to watch a comedy. I was like, maybe we should do that.
[00:19:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, this is the problem, I think. Well, not the problem, but, like, obviously a lot of, like, sci fi, a lot of fantasy has so much political narrative within it. Yeah, yeah, I can. I can imagine.
[00:19:38] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Any who got a laugh? Yeah, we got off topic a little bit. It's obviously, you guys know, it's our first podcast recording for a while, so I guess we had to catch up a little bit with you guys because there's a lot going on in the world. There's a lot going on in our lives. Not so much my life, it's just the continual frustration, but Laura's life.
But I suppose we should maybe focus.
[00:20:06] Speaker B: Let us focus and continue our rage in another topic. Okay, so like we said, if we forgot over the course of the last 20 minutes what we were talking about, so we're wanting to kind of talk around this idea. So the psychology of gendered taste and kind of how this sits within cultures. So what is really interesting around this is, I guess this idea that kind of women's interests almost seem very much like guilty pleasures or can feel like guilty pleasures, whereas men's tend to be kind of thought as more of a passion or something that's perhaps kind of cooler or so on. So if we take a bit of an example. So pop culture example, if we take Taylor Swift, so her fandom is often dismissed as being really obsessive and being something that is, yeah, kind of not cool. And I say this because I used to be one of these people.
[00:21:12] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:21:13] Speaker B: I used to be one of these people.
So as opposed to this, if we look at, like, a man's, like, passion for a certain sport or like Star wars, for example, then that can be seen as quite cool, like intellectual or really smart thing. Though I do have some contradictions to this because I think sometimes Star wars people can think it's, like, a bit geeky and a bit, like, uncool, but it maybe depends where you're sitting.
But I'll go into a bit more on, I guess, some of my views on this in a moment. But I just. Before doing that, I wanted to shout out to Erin. So Erin is another sport and exercise psychologist, and she sent me a kind of post on Instagram around this sort of topic. And it just. I think it's so in line with some of the things that we talk about in terms of how women are valued, how femininity is valued and compared to, like, more masculine traits or, like, hobbies and things. And I think it's also somewhere that I get stuck quite a lot. So I think that naturally for me, maybe not naturally, maybe I've just been influenced by society, but I've always had more like, I suppose, like, masculine kind of hobbies.
So I've always been more into, like, Star wars, for example. I would literally read Star wars encyclopedias when I was younger and, like, learn everything. But then again, like, thinking back to these examples, my sister. My sister absolutely loves Taylor Swift. My sister is like, Taylor Swift's, like, number one fan. And when we were younger, I would always be like, oh, my God, like, why are you listening to Taylor Swift? I don't want to listen to Taylor Swift, but I would secretly, absolutely love her. And now I'm kind of getting there with being able to be more explicit in the fact that I do love Taylor Swift.
But it is that guilty pleasure piece. Right? I feel like it doesn't almost fit in with me or almost like my identity to be like, that's something that I like or something that I love. So I think that there is this guilt that can sit around being into these interests or these hobbies which are seen as very feminine or almost a bit, like, silly.
So I think the big question, I suppose, is around, what does this kind of cost us? What does this cost just people in the world? I suppose, not just women, but like, men as well in terms of what their likes and their interests are when kind of joy around certain hobbies which are minimized or seen as not as worthy as others. Right.
So, yeah, what does that cost us kind of culturally, emotionally, psychologically?
[00:24:00] Speaker A: Can I ask you some questions and share some thoughts?
[00:24:03] Speaker B: I would love you to ask me some questions.
[00:24:06] Speaker A: So I actually had a conversation similar to this with a client yesterday.
Why do we need to be guilty about pleasurable joyful things?
Why do we frame things as guilty pleasures?
And if you're specifically looking at it from the point of view of what we're talking about today, because that's a whole other discussion we can get into like, well being that's related to like pleasure and joy and well being that's related to like psychological purpose and meaning. That's a whole other thing. But I just think it's something to ponder. Why do we, why are we made. What systems and interpersonal interactions are making us feel guilty for things that make us feel happy and good? So that's one thing and it links to what I'm going to say it. And then like, where do you think this shame, this guilt that you're discussing for liking things that are perceived as Ben's hobbies, which I'll get into in a minute. What do you think that is?
[00:25:13] Speaker B: What do I think that is?
I think for me, and I don't know if this is probably different for like different people, but I think for me it's around like I have almost like created like an identity that is a certain way and that actually liking things that might seem outside of that doesn't seem coherent.
So I think for me it's maybe like a coherency sort of thing.
But I remember like, I remember talking to one of my therapists around this sort of thing and it would be like, like I don't like to almost talk about, for example, that I might like to watch, I don't know, certain, like rom coms, I suppose so like to all the boys I've loved before. Have you watched that?
[00:26:04] Speaker A: No, I haven't, but I've meant to.
[00:26:06] Speaker B: It's fantastic, it's great. But that's like one of the things that I probably wouldn't talk about because I don't see that as being cool or consistent with my performative identity, I suppose.
So I don't know if that kind of feels like that's slightly different from, I don't know, perhaps an other explanation which is around how society would view those likes and interests. But maybe it is linked in somewhat with that not being valued or it being dismissed and people not being as interested in that as other things that I might talk about.
[00:26:48] Speaker A: So I, I look at it all as linked as most things are and obviously it's going to be super nuanced and you want identity coherence and. But when you mention like the performance of, of your identity as well. So from my point of view, a lot of this because we all have it to a certain extent, is a bit of internalized misogyny. And that internalized misogyny is because we know what's safe and isn't safe. So your perceived identity. And I would link it to any kind of marginalized identity whatsoever. So especially if you've found an identity that is safe as a neurodivergent woman or something like that, it could feel really uncomfortable. You could almost go into that panic zone to admit that like, you're slightly different than what the, the identity perception management that you're engaging in constantly.
And so it feels safe to stay within that because you don't. The last thing you want is, oh, what an idiot. You like, you know that rom com, because that is like horrifying. Or it can lead to, oh, I'm not cool enough in sport. We work, you know, a lot where like, you have to be part of this boys club or you're not going to be able to do your job and then you're going to get fired. You know what I mean? So it can just link so many things. That's just kind of what I was kind of thinking what, what came into my head when you were talking, definitely.
So I guess we'll move into like actually like dissecting this a little bit. So like this core idea that dismissing women's interests is really a form of microaggression that causes internalized shame. That's exactly what you were talking about.
Before I go into that, I think it's really important to point out that interests shouldn't necessarily be gendered, but they are. And it's a systemic tool that is relatively new. And it links to these binary gender roles that are so problematic, just not very human. And it's the kind of like Mossern, modern Western, the most gender binary. Yeah, we get one every episode. Episode.
The modern Western gender binary. So that. That rigid division into, in heavy quotes, man and woman based off of their biological sex. So really? Yeah, male is man, female is woman, and nothing else exists in this kind of ideology. And so this idea really took hold during like the 17, 18th century when enlightenment happened. And it like we started, not we personally, but our ancestors really especially like Europe and stuff like that, started their colonial era era. So this was as science, philosophy and empire building expanded mostly by men because of the oppression in the witch trials in like the 16th century, as we've discussed, this need to kind of classify and control human differences kind of started.
So these Enlightenment thinkers really emphasized binaries. So they're looking at reason versus emotion, culture versus nature, man versus woman, and then like coding them into, you know, things that match each other. So reason is woman. I mean reason, I mean that's naturally what I think. Reason, reason is man, emotion is woman, that kind of thing. And so a lot of this, you know, we can have a different argument about how conscious and unconscious this cultural change happens to be. But essentially it was meant to uphold this white male, European, European superiority. So it was almost also this binary of if you're wearing these fashionable clothing, you're you know, intelligent and cultured. Whereas if when they started collapse, like oh my God, can't speak today, colonizing and coming to more indigenous areas, if they weren't wearing what obviously these amazing God fearing people were wearing, then they were uncultured and needed to be fixed in heavy quotes, right? So this was later institutionalized in medicine, in law and religion and it just kind of spread globally and erased a lot of indigenous kind of non binary gender fluid gender systems, which is kind of the natural human way of being. So I just think it's really important to note that this gender binary isn't super timeless. It's pretty recent, you know, the last 300 years or so. And so that's why there is, there's kind of an issue like there's number one the issue with the binary and number two, the need to control your interests through the binary as a way of kind of enforcing power. So just wanted to get that in there. But what are your thoughts on that?
[00:31:45] Speaker B: I always think it's so interesting to like, like you say, almost remember that this is not the way it's like always been because I think we are just so, I guess like institutionalized into this is the way we see the world.
This is how we view things, this is how we make sense of things is through this gendered view.
And I think it is, yeah, I think it's quite like a powerful thing to remember in that this is not the way that things have always been.
And it's quite sad because it's so difficult to undo all of those assumptions that we then have. Right?
[00:32:27] Speaker A: And you're so right. I mean a lot of people feel quite triggered when we bring this kind of stuff up because they're like, well this is just what I've been taught. Like I'm not a bad person. And firstly, I don't think our job as psychologists is to make people comfortable. It's to help people grow. And so I, I really think that there's a, there's a sense of, well, no, we all have these internalized beliefs because we grew up in a specific time, in a specific. Yeah. In a specific era.
That kind of the systems give us. Like, this is how the brain learns. So there is a lot of personal responsibility to unlearn a lot of stuff. But it's also not your fault what you learn. The emphasis is on you to then change. But I just have. I. It makes me really sad a lot of the time that people are suppressing their preferences so much to fit into a binary, and it changes. So pink used to be a masculine color about 150 years ago because it was related to red, which was the color of blood. Heels were invented for men. Like, it's. It's so. It's just so change. Changeable. And so I don't really see masculine and feminine interests anymore. I just like. But right now we do have this binary of more men and women's interests. So, like, downplaying, like, it's just a chick flick. That's so basic. Oh, you're one of those girls who likes Taylor Swift. And this really relates to, on a smaller level, I would say, than the microaggressions that like, black people have to go through on a daily basis. But it is some microinvalidations and these are some subtle signs that the signal. That signal, sorry, a person, their group, their value is diminished in comparison to the other group. So in a binary system, when there's only two groups, if one group is diminished, then the other one has the power. And so this is constantly happening with women's interests. In the witch trials, women's interests were framed as dangerous. Now we devalue them through shame.
And this links. Oh, go for it.
[00:34:42] Speaker B: Oh, no, I was just thinking about Taylor Swift.
[00:34:45] Speaker A: Oh, I was thinking.
[00:34:46] Speaker B: I was just thinking about, like, I can't remember. I don't remember the stats or anything, but I think not long ago she kind of like surpassed the, you know, highest amount of something happening. I don't know if it was listens or, like, album sales or something. Right. Like, more than anybody ever. Like, and I remember it being compared to, like the Beatles, for example, but people almost like, don't give her the credit for what she's actually managed to do and will still look at her very, very negatively. Whereas people look at the Beatles and be like, oh, my God, like, they're amazing. Like, oh, my God. Whereas, like, Taylor Swift, it's like, well, you know, it's just all really crap music. It's just like loads of girls, you know, just like fangirling it's just they give absolutely no meaning to more artistry, to, like, what she's actually doing. And if you look at, like, what she does in, like, more detail and like, the lyrics to her songs and like, how she has developed and grown her, like, image, like, over the years, it's absolutely incredible. But it's for some reason just always seen through a very negative and minimized lens in comparison to some of these other, like, you know, male artists, female from the past, which you. Yeah, it's.
[00:36:03] Speaker A: And we've seen her be devalued constantly in the music industry, so. Constantly.
[00:36:09] Speaker B: So much hate. So much hate for her.
[00:36:11] Speaker A: Yeah, it makes me really sad. Like, imagine how pissed off she is, like, doing. I mean, she's really. She's really rich and, you know, you can only feel so bad for somebody. But at the same time, if I accomplished that, I. And I would probably, would probably expect it, but still be quite upset that you would never get the recognition that you deserve. I don't know if you've seen on, like, reels or something, but there's these videos of people watching the Taylor Swift eras tour.
The. The girls and women, like, just all at the bottom of the movie theater, like doing like a circle and like dancing and stuff like that. And everyone's just like, super happy. And then the same version, but it's the Marvel movie. And everyone in the theater, mostly men, which is silly because it's not like Marvel's not really like that, but that's another story. But mostly men just cheering and chatting together about and basically having a really, I don't know, brotherly companionship experience, which is also super positive. They're both positive things. People are enjoying what they want to enjoy.
And the. One of the Taylor Swift ones, they're like, wow, they look like witches. Oh my God, they're crazy. Are they on something? And then for the Marvel one, it's like, oh, look at them. The camaraderie. They're so into it. And this is why, though it relates to something called self objectification theory. And I actually know this really good creator, Roxanne Nyah. She does research into this about how we're all objectified. Women are objectified even through our own lenses. And that's. So that's this idea. And we do it for safety, to make progress in the world, things like that. And it's basically women constantly monitoring themselves through the lens of how they're going to be perceived. And this also includes their own interests. So whether that's. It's safer To, I don't know, fit into that benevolent sexism box that we've talked about. So you're safer if you don't step out of the norms and you want to be like that clean girl aesthetic that's quite popular right now, which is a whole other thing that we've kind of talked about.
[00:38:21] Speaker B: Clean clean or clean?
[00:38:22] Speaker A: Yeah, clean clean. I would love to be in a queen aesthetic. That would be fantastic.
Yeah. Either the artist or just the general vibe. I could do either, but shoo. I forgot what I was saying. Oh, yeah. So whether they're fitting into the box of this performing femininity because that's safer, or fitting into this cool girl box who's not like other girls, they're still doing it because of likely. And it's a lot of the time obviously unconscious. They're monitoring themselves through the lens of how they're gonna be perceived. And it reminds me of, you know, I love Margaret Atwood. It reminds me of a quote she has from her book the Robber Bride. So I'm just going to read it. Male fantasies. Male fantasies is everything run by male fantasies. Up on a pedestal or down on your knees. It's all male fantasy that you're strong enough to take what they dish out or too weak to do anything about it. Even pretending you aren't catering to male fantasies is a male fantasy. Pretending you're unseen, pretending you have a life of your own. You can wash your feet and comb your hair. Unconscious of the ever present watcher peering through the keyhole. Peering through the keyhole in your own head if nowhere else, you are a woman with a man inside. Watching a woman, you're your own voyeur. And I read that quote a few years ago and it just really stuck with me and made me realize, like, even not just men, but like broad, more broadly, how much perception management I was doing for safety from whatever system.
So this kind of viewing your own life through the lens of patriarchy is essentially what it is. And it's this internal massage, internalized misogyny that probably no one will ever fully get rid of. It creates this, like, anticipatory shame. So you preemptively downplay or mock what you love. So like you with Taylor Swift, it's like, I know it's silly, but. Or it's a guilty pleasure, as you said.
[00:40:22] Speaker B: Yeah, you kind of dismiss it as that, like, oh, it's just a guilty pleasure, but that means that I actually really like it. But I'm just saying it's a good whereas. I wouldn't say that, like, Lord of the Rings was, like, a guilty pleasure because. And you see this online as well, like, on Instagram, and things you will see, like, posts which are, I don't know, basically, like, saying, you know, if you have a girlfriend and she's gonna watch, like, Lord of the Rings with you, like, isn't this, like, so amazing? And it's like, well, why can't we just like, Lord of the Rings? Like, why does this have to be, like, I don't know, like, revelation or some kind of something that's almost special? Like, it makes it almost seem like it's really, like, special if, like, a woman likes, like, Lord of the Rings or, like, Star wars or something. But actually, it's like, there's probably a lot more common than you think.
And that always kind of frustrates me.
[00:41:16] Speaker A: I was actually going to say that earlier. When women like things that are kind of coded as. As men's things, like Star wars, it's like, cool. And it's like, oh, you're so cool because you like this. We've kind of talked about it before, things that. When we felt embarrassed to love something typically feminine. I don't remember it, like, something very specific like that, but I do remember being told a few times in my early to mid-20s, like, oh, you're not like other girls. You could. You actually have a sense of humor, or you like Lord of the Rings or you like, blah, blah. And I would always, like, feel like, oh, that's. That's great. This, like, this is what I was aiming for. And now I look back and I'm like, ew, that's so gross. But that's because it's safe. Oh, great. Okay. Well, that can help me progress or make friends or whatever. And so I. I look back on that now with, like, shame, because that's what this whole situation does, is it pits us against each other to be in that safe box rather than kind of work with each other. This kind of, like, cultural dismissal is really an assault on our psychology as women. And it's something that we don't. Wouldn't necessarily recognize how much we have to think about it.
[00:42:38] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. And I think this links into almost just how the feminine is really, again, like, devalued. Right. And how we might equate the more masculine things. So I guess here, like, maybe. Maybe it is Lord of the Rings, like, maybe that's seen more as kind of serious, like, intellectual or whatever, whereas your, like, crochet or, like, your knitting is seen as kind of frivolous or kind of silly, like, pointless almost, which just seems a bit ridiculous. Right.
And I'm kind of. And I'm saying that as well almost from, like, I can see it in my mind, like, when I would have thought those things as well. I would say more recently, I've started picking up a lot more, like, crafty things and placing a lot more value on that. But in previous years, I would have very much felt that way too. Like, well, I can't do that because, like, what's the point in doing that? Whereas, actually I can read a full encyclopedia about Star wars and, like, have all this. But I could do that about crochet. I could read so much about and have such a deep understanding and deep passion for it. So I think that it's. Yeah. So it's basically just this idea, I guess, around how we legitimize or we value these kind of perceived masculine versus feminine, like, hobbies. And we can link this into gender schema theory. Right.
So from when we're very young, we kind of learn to associate masculinity with strength, with logic, even with things like having good spatial awareness, you know, like stuff like that.
Whereas that feminine side, it's your emotion, it's the indulgence, it's kind of an excess of something. So that obsessiveness or. Yeah. Almost a feeling of, like, being crazy about something. Right. And I think this is interesting when we link it back to then, you know, how we socially construct, like, gender. Right. So if there's a. There's a video that I always show to the students about when I'm talking to them about. About gender. And it's basically kind of highlighting how parents or adults will give, you know, a more feminine toy, like a doll, for example, to a. To a baby that they. Or a toddler that they think is a girl, and they'll give kind of more of the, you know, the trucks or the more the toys that might build this kind of spatial awareness, for example, like, more to the boys.
And what they kind of do in this, like, mini experiment is they basically swap the clothes of the boy and the girl toddler and kind of see how. See what happens. But based on even just the perception of that's a boy and that's a girl, that impacts then the toys that we choose to give them. And therefore that kind of goes on to impact the hobbies and the likes and the interests that they build.
So I always think that that is really interesting in how even from such a young age, we are starting to kind of code by gender and almost place these seeds of. This is the stuff that you should like, this is the stuff that you shouldn't like.
And again, it's this kind of coding, this feminine coding, and how that's more likely to be trivialized, I suppose.
And this, like, I suppose when we're more adult, this might be seen in things like the books we read. So, like, romance novels, skincare routines, journaling, things like that. And I think quite a. I think one I've been thinking about a lot more recently because you said this to me, Kristen, when we were at the football the other day about how.
Because I would say I prefer high fantasy, right? Whereas you were saying, well, why is it called high fantasy? Like, why is it that high fantasy in the first place? What I did notice, and then I would love kind of your kind of view on this. But one of the things that I do notice that I find kind of frustrating is I was talking to someone about. I think I was suggesting books. So I was suggesting Robin Hobb books because she is my favorite author.
She is technically high fantasy.
But when I was suggesting this to this person, they were like, oh, it's not like one of those Romantasy things, is it? Because I'm not gonna read that. And I was a bit like, what? Like, why are you so, like, dismissive of, like, romantasy? And I was kind. I was quite quick just to be like, oh, no, no, no. Like, it's not like that. But then I was. I think it's interesting in relation to what we're talking about here. It's like, well, why is that being dismissed? They probably have never even read anything like that before. How do they know that that's not something that they like? And it's because I would say that it's something that is coded as very feminine rather than something that is more masculine and say, like, how high fantasy might be viewed.
[00:47:49] Speaker A: And that's where these classification systems become issues and ways to put us against each other instead of the system. And because a lot of what might be labeled as Romantasy for two reasons. Because it's written by a woman and there is some romance in the book is very, very, very similar in terms of world development and storyline politics. Whether you want to look at, like, dystopia or more fantasy kind of stuff. It's very similar to what you might class as high fantasy. Not all of it. Like, there's some very romantic things, but, like. So, for example, Throne of Glass is very much classed as a Romantasy there's, there is like a really strong relationship between the characters, like the two main kind of romantic characters, but it is not at all the focus.
The focus is on the world building and the adventure and like the pro. The overarching problem that they have to solve is like the group and it's, it's just. And the fact that it gets grouped as Romantasy always makes me laugh. And I'm like, it's literally just because it's been written by somebody who. And she wrote the first book when she was 16, but she's just like the queen of, you know, Romantasy just. And she's, she's written what, like 16 books at this point? More than that. And like Sarah J. Maas isn't perfect. She's, you know, like. But no one, but no one is. I mean we look back at, you know, like Tolkien, stuff like that.
[00:49:22] Speaker B: They're awesome.
[00:49:25] Speaker A: Yeah, there, there are some issues, but then like, but if you, when you look at things like, like what you call it Game of Thrones and there's way more kind of like sex, there's sexual violence and things like that.
[00:49:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:49:41] Speaker A: If you would have done the exact same thing and maybe give it a woman off author, it might be classed as Romantasy. And they use it in the news to dismiss romantasy, which is the highest selling genre of books and it is the majority women reading it. And firstly, that's a fear of women reading books. There's a fear of women having higher standards for their partners because that's been a thing on the Internet. But it also the. The reason there that like the. They have this fear, not the reason they have this fear. After they have this fear. The tool they use is to code it as feminine and devalue it.
[00:50:21] Speaker B: Yes. And I think it's almost interesting that my, my like assumption is oh, but it feels very ya like, it feels very like young adult. That's I guess is my like minimization of it almost. But I, I mean I say this and I absolutely love like young adult books. But I suppose that is still. That is still, I suppose something that I'm doing to like minimize that. Whereas I'm putting on a pedestal the books that I think are more high fantasy. So whether that is like, yeah, you're like Robin Hobb and things, but Robin Hobb is a woman. I will say people will often think that she's a man because of her name, but she is a woman.
[00:51:07] Speaker A: Yeah, I need to get into her books. But I think we'll probably get into this a little bit. But, like, what ends up happening a lot in these situations is if it's done by a woman, it gets infantilized. And so that's part of that benevolent sexism thing that we cover. It's like that condescension, that infantilization. And. And look, there is a lot of romantic. See, that does feel very. Ya. I would argue that probably the first half of Acotar does feel that way to me a little bit. Even though there's a lot of beautiful themes, stuff like that.
[00:51:38] Speaker B: Yeah, ya is not bad.
[00:51:41] Speaker A: Like, I. Yeah, exactly.
[00:51:42] Speaker B: I love it.
[00:51:43] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. But then there's like. And then there's new adult, which is like romance versions of high fantasy. There's like, There's. There's all sorts out there. And I think the. The issue for me is when people feel that one is worse or better than the other, people are reading. That's awesome. Let people read and enjoy what they want to enjoy. And if they want to be obsessed with Acotar versus, like, Lord of the Rings, whatever. I like both. I've literally got a Gandalf riding off into the sunset right there. And then I've got Sailor Mars right next to. To him. And that's a children's show, you know what I mean?
[00:52:25] Speaker B: Yes, totally. It's like, why does it have to contain multiple.
Yeah. Why does it have to be like, one thing or the other? And I think this is something that I've always not found. Yeah. Probably found, like, somewhat difficult. Is. Again, it goes back to what I was talking about in terms of that coherence. Like, well, actually, if I like this stuff, then I. Maybe I can only like this stuff or. I always used to find this difficult with, like, working in sport. Right. It's like, okay, in sport, we're almost meant to come across a certain way or be really into like, football or have a team that you follow. And I'm like, I don't really have a team that. I really feel like I don't mind football, but I don't really follow anyone. And then that seems like counter to other hobbies, which might be like sci fi and fantasy. That might be like rock and metal music. To me, those hobbies seem to really clash. And I think that's what was quite challenging about working in a sports space, was it almost felt like it didn't fit. But that is just not true because you can be all of those things and there's nobody saying that we can't be all of these things. We can't have feminine and masculine kind of hobbies that we like and that we engage in. And I think it ends up, just ends up becoming such a narrow view of what we should or should not like. So why can't we, you know, like young adult books and you know, other books which are perhaps more written for like adults as well. You know, it's like who's putting, who's putting these categories into place? Like, can't we just like what we like and just, you know what I mean?
[00:54:02] Speaker A: If the human brain was designed for binaries, we wouldn't experience so much cognitive dissonance when we were trying to make sense of them. Like for you, when you were saying like but I like Taylor Swift but doesn't fit with kind of this identity eyed construction. You wouldn't feel that cognitive dissonance if the human brain was meant for binaries. The system wouldn't have to do so much, so much work to enforce them. And so it's just like being forced into this little box when humans have so much more potential. And that just, that's what just drives me nuts. We could be doing so much more and we could be so much happier. Did you have anything else for your little.
[00:54:43] Speaker B: I think it's probably just kind of reinforcing, you know, this idea around women then internalizing the so emotional depth to something as being embarrassing like rather than powerful.
So I suppose again this view that yeah, if we feel emotional, if we feel feelings about something, then that again is seen as something that's bad rather than something that is actually like a good thing or part of like a human experience.
[00:55:17] Speaker A: And how, how harmful is that towards men and women that men are allowed to feel their emotions?
It's gross.
[00:55:26] Speaker B: And I was, I was kind of thinking about that as, as we've been talking as well in terms of how does this impact men as well. So in terms of men perhaps feeling like they can't say that they like something, there's a certain band or certain music that they feel like they can't even listen to because they don't want to be seen as like that person. And actually how powerful it is just to be able to like what you like and to be open to liking different things.
And I think that is one of the things that this does, is it does, it narrows people's perspectives, it shuts people off from things that they might actually enjoy, they might actually learn something new from. And we just end up going down this very kind of narrow path. And that is, I think ultimately as well, like dangerous for then what we believe and the knowledge that we consume, you know, it's like we're stuck. We're like stuck in our own algorithm, you know?
[00:56:24] Speaker A: Yes. Well, I think it makes me just make me think of like, psychological flexibility. We know children who learn multiple languages when they're young. They have much greater psychological flexibility as they grow and perform much better cognitively. But think about like the binary we're forced ourselves into by this kind of like, system and how actually we could have much better cognitive and psychological experiences if we were allowed to think outside that box. And it goes probably so much further than we're even real. Like it's harmful on that social level obviously of the, like the oppression, forcing, say like trans people into binary that they don't belong in really harmful legislation. Then also on that psychological and emotional level, we could be doing better. We could be happier, we could be performing better cognitively. But we don't have those neural pathways. When you're forced into a di. A binary because of you don't use it, you lose it.
So I just think understanding that these cultural tastes are shaped by power and because we live in a patriarchy, that these kind of classified as men's tastes are that. That default. So yeah, this, this cultural taste shaped by power is super evident kind of when women's domains and heavy quotes. Okay, if you can't. If you're not watching the YouTube, I'm heavy quoting women's domains.
Oh, I didn't get any like balloons or anything this time.
No, I didn't like thumbs up. Oh, that sounds.
[00:58:02] Speaker B: Oh, well, we need to fix that.
[00:58:04] Speaker A: Wow, what a terrible day. Now it's ruined my day.
But these kind of women's domains are respected a lot more when men start to dominate them. So thinking about like, yeah, think about like nursing and like elementary school. What do you guys call elementary school?
[00:58:24] Speaker B: Primary school.
[00:58:25] Speaker A: Primary school teachers, like a kindergarten teacher. So like men are just really passionate about caring for people. And that's amazing, but it's like the default for women. Or like if you're talking about like girl math and like women's fiction, even the fact that you have to say like female led movie or that performative ass. All women trip to outer split outer space.
[00:58:52] Speaker B: Good.
[00:58:52] Speaker A: Oh my God, that was so bad. That was so performative. I just like, you just destroyed how much of the environment to do basically early 2000s white girl feminism. Come on.
[00:59:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:59:05] Speaker A: Anyway, that's like the epitome of this is like girls in space. That's so cool. That's different. Even though there have been all women missions anyway.
[00:59:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:59:15] Speaker A: But like the overall implication is womanhood is like this niche, this outside thing that could be bad, could be good. But it's not the human default, which is like just so crazy because they want to. It's not the human default, but they still want to convince us that there's a binary default. So it's just that double standards we talk about a lot and kind of like we talked about this builds a lot of cognitive dissonance. So a feeling of tension between what we love and how we think we're allowed to love it. And I think that's kind of the main takeaway from this, is I say this to people a lot, is if you're feeling that cognitive dissonance. So this uncomfortability when, whether it's like your own hobby or when you're taking on new information that kind of challenges what you believe about something, sit with it and explore it. Because they're like the not like other girls kind of thing. Or I'll use another example. When I started, I used to dress quite feminine because it was really safe. When I started working in sport, no longer safe. So do I. I remember I was at a football game and told to like, dress nicely. And I wore. This was my favorite top at the time. So I wore like a. Because it was like a big game and I would be like with the managers and everyone was going to be wearing like a suit and stuff like that.
I wore this like pink pastel top which. With sleeves that go like this and then like flare out at the bottom, which I've always loved sleeves like that because they remind me of being a witch or a medieval princess, which are like my two favorite things that I would want to be.
So I was like, I love this top. And probably every single person there assumed that I wasn't working, that I was the partner of somebody else. And one person said, one man said to me, oh, I bet you love.
I bet you love.
What was it? Oh, being a football wife. Because all you have to do is shop, go shopping. I was like, I am the sports psychologist of this. Excuse me, what the hell? And so I then felt like a lot of cognitive dissonance then between like, what I liked is not what is accepted. Completely changed to only wearing dark colors. I mean, I love dark colors as well. I love to wear dark colors and really just like kind of defeminized myself in those situations. And then as I started to think about it more when I was Kind of unmasking my autism a lot. I experienced a lot of cognitive dissonance when I started. I was wearing like tops like this that are super girly, and I felt like a lot of uncomfortability. And I was like, why? Why am I feeling like this? I don't understand why I'm so avoidant towards this, like, frilly top. And then. So that was a moment I really remember kind of exploring that cognitive dissonance. And that made me remember that memory of what happened, because I hadn't consciously done that. It was like just kind of like a survival thing. So very long story short is when you're like, why has this happened? Explore that so much further. Because human emotions arise for a reason and to tell us that something is happening. And when I felt really uncomfortable, the simple thing of reaching for like a pink shirt, I was like, this is why. Why is this happening? This feels a bit aggressive for, like, just reason for sure.
That's interesting. But obviously we have the benefit of being psychologists and noticing sometimes when that stuff pops up. So.
[01:02:48] Speaker B: Yeah. And I have that sometimes for like certain tops, even like tops like this that I might wear. But I think it's more of a thought of like, oh, if I wear this in like a work meeting, is that going to be appropriate? Or like, not appropriate? Maybe more than like the gendered kind of side of it. I don't know. But I think that that is. We've talked about that before over analysis of what we're choosing and like why we're choosing it and what that says almost like about us as well. And I think also when you were speaking and you were kind of saying how, you know, when you're wearing kind of, I guess, more feminine clothes within that very masculine, like, work environment, ultimately is that I think it then puts so much more pressure on us to feel like we have to prove ourselves, you know?
[01:03:34] Speaker A: Yes.
[01:03:35] Speaker B: It's like I'd be like, okay, now I really need to prove to them that I actually know what I'm talking about or that I, for some reason, like, actually deserve to be here. I think there's also that which like, stacks on top of how we are. Yeah. Making sense of these environments on how we are trying to like, prove our own worth, show that we have value. And that is absolutely exhausting.
[01:03:59] Speaker A: That was. That's so true. And then also, I think it also gives off a performative energy to other people and they're like, oh, she's trying too hard. And it's just like this.
[01:04:09] Speaker B: Yes.
[01:04:10] Speaker A: Like, you're just thinking yourself. Yeah, you can't win. And I guess that's unfortunately the way most things are.
[01:04:20] Speaker B: Indeed.
[01:04:20] Speaker A: So, yeah, I guess just people just explore that a little bit. What systems, what internalized beliefs are causing this?
[01:04:30] Speaker B: And I. And I think then maybe to kind of wrap up with some of our, like, reflections at the end or things for you guys to kind of listen or listen to, to kind of have a think about. I think there is. And I think maybe. I think for me, there is something quite prominent around this idea of, like, guilty pleasures. Right. So perhaps kind of have a think if there is something that you would call a guilty pleasure and maybe have a think about, like, why. And like, is that actually joy? Is that actually joy that you are suppressing or for some reason feel discomfort in sharing with others and perhaps just like, unpack that a little bit and kind of see what you notice.
And something as well that I actually wrote down, Kristen, that.
That you said just a moment ago was almost like, challenging ourselves around. So you said how we think we're allowed to, like, love something. And I think that is so interesting. So I think almost reflecting on, you know, is there something that maybe is that guilty pleasure? Like, is there a way that you feel like you're being told you have to love it?
How would you love that thing if actually there was no pressure, there was no expectations, there was no one there to, like, judge you? How would that look? What would be different about that?
So I think they're, like, my main reflections from today.
[01:05:59] Speaker A: Is it bad? The first thing that popped into my head is that I would eat a lot more Mac and cheese. And I don't know why I was like, I get judged how much I love Mac and cheese, but I would eat all the Mac and cheese in the world.
[01:06:12] Speaker B: That is so interesting. That's not something we've already spoken about. But even in terms of then what should we be eating? Right? Like, what should women be eating? Oh, maybe we should be eating a salad and not having this steak. Even something like that, I think, you know, builds into what we've been talking about.
[01:06:30] Speaker A: Oh, my. This. This is gonna be such a tangent at the end of the episode.
Have I ever told you about that guy I went on a date with? And he ordered for me and he ordered a salad. This is before I met Jack, obviously. And I was, like, so, like.
[01:06:45] Speaker B: Like cliche, almost. Like some things that would, like, only happen in a film.
[01:06:50] Speaker A: It also feels like something that would. Wouldn't have happened that long ago. Like. Like when I was like, what, 18 or something like that? Because there was like a little. It wasn't as bad, but like, all the red pill stuff out there now I feel like people might be trying that kind of shit again. But I was like, guys don't do that. And I was just, like, so confused. I just left. And, like, if it were me today, I would say something rude and leave, but, like, I just left and never responded to the person again. And so from that point forward, which I think it was only like two dates, because then I met Jack. But then, like, every single date I went on, I ordered, like the largest meal on the menu. Just as a test. Okay. And then when I. I went to Jack, went to. On my first date with Jack at Outback Steakhouse and ordered the largest. Because if it was like putting the man off to do that, I was like, I don't wanna be around you order the largest steak and massive potato and everything. And he was like, this is awesome.
[01:07:49] Speaker B: Yes.
[01:07:50] Speaker A: I was like, great. This is. This is fantastic. Anyway, another tangent. If you ever want a really fun test, that's. That's a useful one. And you might get a fun meal out of it, even if the person sucks.
Anyway, thank you all for listening. As usual, we probably have more questions than answers, but we enjoyed exploring the system. Oh, no. I almost had it. Systemic Evaluation of Feminine and Heavy Quotes Interests. Did this leave you with any questions? Please be sure to comment and let us know. We'd also love to know if you have any topics you'd like us to explore. So please do get in touch and make sure to, like, follow, engage, however your platform allows. And tell your friends you can find us on all the social medias. The link is in the bio of our but why Instagram and the show notes. And remember, the first step to understanding is asking but why?
[01:08:44] Speaker B: Yay.
