Identity and Sense of Self

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the but why podcast in Exercise and Authenticity, where we question the why behind various topics through our lens as psychologists and human beings. I'm Dr. Kristen McGinty, Minister. [00:00:13] Speaker B: And I'm Dr. Laura Swetnam. [00:00:15] Speaker A: And today we are questioning sense of self and identity. So theme song time. [00:00:23] Speaker B: Yay. Well, I guess maybe first thing to say is, well, one, welcome to our first podcast. Two, please be warned, we might be a little bit awkward today, but we're going to see how things go. I guess kind of to kick off, it might be useful just to talk about why we wanted to start this podcast. So like me and Kristen, we often have a lot of conversations, I suppose, around, like different topics, quite a lot around kind of sexism, sports, social justice sort of things. And so we thought it might be interesting to bring those conversations into a podcast and also just kind of to give us some space to talk through these things and a space to be authentic and yeah, talk about things that we care about but are also quite angry about probably at the same time. [00:01:29] Speaker A: There's always that underlying rage, especially from me sometimes. Exactly. [00:01:35] Speaker B: Kristin really needs an outlet for that sort of stuff. [00:01:37] Speaker A: So that's exactly what my sister said. She said, I think this will be a good outlet for you, Kristen. Yeah, yeah. And it's an interesting one because were quite involved in the sport world. I guess that's something we haven't touched on is we're both sport and exercise psychologists in the uk. When we thought about starting this podcast quite a few months ago, we were thinking about just doing sport. So, you know, stories about sport, hot takes and sport and things like that. But that didn't feel super authentic to us. And because this is an exercise in authenticity, we really didn't want to kind of perform that sporting side of us. We wanted to just talk about things that we want to talk about when we want to talk about them. And most of them are kind of that socio psychological thing. We've got, you know, systems in place in society. We've got, you know, things that impact us as individuals, current events, things like that. So that's the general vibe. And also I think we probably ask for some patience because we're learning what we're doing and we basically have no clue, but we're trying our best. This is just us filming our normal meetings where we go off topic for about an hour. [00:02:53] Speaker B: Sounds about right, for sure. And I remember though, like, the first time, I think we were messaging on WhatsApp and it was like, it felt so freeing to feel like we were not just going to stick to sport and to just look at things that we thought were interesting that we wanted to discuss. I think because we've been training or you know, have been working in sport for, for a long time but like over maybe like 10 years, ish when we like started, started training, I think you get so consumed in that world that it's nice to sort of step outside of it. But hopefully we can put yeah, a sports like lens on some of the stuff that we talk about. [00:03:32] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean I'm sure we won't be able to resist doing some sport topics because we do love sport but this is going to be quite cool to do. You know, we mentioned the topic being about sense of self and identity, identity and along the lines of what you were talking about, that sport side is very specific part of yourself that is your identity. And that's why we almost, it was freeing to say, oh, we're not going to just do sport, we can explore other aspects of our identities. And I think that's why we want to touch on that today because it's not a super well known concept. I mean as sports psychs we talk about it constantly obviously, but it's not necessarily something that most people think about on a daily basis. [00:04:12] Speaker B: Yes, I think this is totally ye like a natural progression into it and I think also it's like, you know, for kind of you guys like listening. Hopefully it's a bit of an insight into us and who we are. So we'll share some bits about our identity and hopefully let you kind of reflect on parts of yours as well. So yeah. Kristen, kick us off. What is, what's identity? [00:04:33] Speaker A: Well, here's another warning. We love reflection, so be prepared to hear a lot about, you should reflect on this, we should reflect on this, etc. Etc. You'll probably get sick of the word. So yeah, let's, let's get started. So identity is kind of a term that gets quite confusing and it can be conflated with a lot of other terms quite a bit. And so I think the important thing is distinguishing between sense of self and identity. So it's easy to think that they're the same things unless you really dig into it. So we look at sense of self more broadly. Obviously I'm not going to just be citing literature here, something like that, but broadly, sense of self is your idea internally about who you are as a person, what makes you you. Whereas identity is more socially constructed. It's kind of like your external reality. It's my identity as A woman, you know, gender being constructed. It's my identity as a sports psychologist. It's my identity as an American, things like that. And both sense of self and identity are both internally so, like, individually and socially constructed. It's just that identity is. Is a social construction. So does that make sense? [00:05:50] Speaker B: Yeah, so. And I guess as well, they can kind of. They kind of blur lines sometimes, right? Because I think I often think about. I think I probably just think about identity. I probably don't think more deeply about this idea of sense. Sense of self and this idea of, like, what makes you you. I think I often feel like the things that make up my identity make me me. And I think that's why sometimes I struggle, like, splitting it off. [00:06:19] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, that's the thing is they're interrelated as well. I mean, you have both are kind of built alongside each other throughout your life and change as you go, and even your awareness of them changes over time. And that has a big impact about how you experience, you know, your relative identities and things like that. If we're looking at identity, obviously that's super influenced by your sense of self. Because if you are, at your heart, somebody who is motivated by certain things, somebody who has genuine interest, that will inform your identity and so will the world around you and how you're interacting with that. The thing that made me really start digging into these topics, because I'm pretty much the same as you. Up until a couple of years ago, identity was just who you are. And do you remember at the university always correcting language, basically saying, identity is performed. Identity is performed. And I was like, I don't understand. What does that mean? Like, what do you mean? Identity is who you are. And I finally figured it out when basically after I was diagnosed as autistic just over a year and a half ago, but really started exploring this sense of identity and sense of self about two years ago when I was just getting really confused and realizing that I had probably suppressed parts of myself. And so it's not just autistic people that will go through this. I'm sure everyone goes through this to a certain extent. But something that's really frequently talked about in the autistic community is this sense that, okay, well, you grow up, say you're a toddler, and you have very specific needs and communication ways and things like that, but they're super different from the people around you, and you're going, okay, well, that's fine. But, you know, communication differences are completely fine. But especially, you know, I'm talking 30 years ago now. When your communication and needs and things like that are different, you almost get punished in a roundabout way for it by a society because it's a neurotypical society. But you don't recognize that this is necessarily happening. You just go, that's a part of myself, my true self, that I really need to suppress. And okay, well, that's probably just what everyone's doing. I just need to get rid of that, you know, like, minimize that, et cetera, et cetera. And you listen to society and other people about what you're supposed to be putting out. And so that's where you start, that identity performance and maybe suppressing aspects of yourself. For me, like, as you know, I love a solid fantasy book. I love, you know, Sailor Moon. I love. Yeah, right. Yeah, we definitely have that in common. And yeah, we. We have our very specific interests that, you know, society doesn't necessarily think is normal. I mean, it's so much better nowadays. I mean, look at the Olympics with all, you know, the athletes doing, you know, the. The anime movements and, like, talking about their Digimon cards and all that kind of stuff that made me so happy doing the Kamehameha, all that. And. But, like, I. I suppressed that side of myself because I got made fun of to the point where I didn't even read a fantasy book for, like, near years. I literally did. How sad is that? And I was just performing this identity of, like, I'm an athlete, I'm cool. Even though, like, everyone always thought I was a bit odd from their perspective. But I thought I was doing a great job until I realized that I was presenting all these. There was just, like, a disruption between how I felt and what I was portraying, I suppose, to the world. [00:10:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:02] Speaker A: And that kind of misalignment in sense of self and identity led to, like, compromised, well, being, basically. And that's what led me to that. So that's, like, a really roundabout way of explaining, like, my experience with identity and sense of self. The last couple years has just, like, been really fun because it's been an exercise in becoming myself again. [00:10:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:28] Speaker A: So it's been exciting. But yeah. [00:10:31] Speaker B: Yeah. And as you were speaking, like, I was thinking about how, I guess kind of my identity and I guess the way I express or perform that identity has, like, shifted a lot over time from, like, probably when I was like, I don't maybe, like, 12 or something and like, just starting high school. Then I think I really, like, altered the things I wore because I always used to get made fun of because I dressed like a tomboy or, like, wore brown. And it was like, girls don't wear brown. And I was like, well, I'm wearing brown. [00:11:01] Speaker A: Girls can't wear brown. What's gender colors? Even more, like, even, like, the more. [00:11:06] Speaker B: Basic ones that's, like, stuck in my memory so much. Like, I can still see that. That brown top. But then I think I got to a point where I was almost just. Just like, could not be bothered anymore to, like, think about how I was performing for other people because it was never enough. So I would say, like, later on in high school, maybe when I was like, 14, 15, I almost, like, went the complete opposite. So I was like, I would only do things that like, nobody else was doing because I didn't want to conform. And I remember at the time, like, teachers, like, at school would just always be saying, lori, you just need to conform a bit so you can, like, make some friends. And I'm like, that's not what I want to do. Like, it's literally like the opposite of what I want. So I think at that time I, like, even though it was quite, like, isolating, I was probably more myself then than I, maybe than I am now. I don't really know. But I think then when I moved into sport that I think then I started moving away from being more, like, authentic and starting to put more, like, masks up and starting to perform more because it was like a professional environment rather than actually back at high school, I couldn't care less what people thought. [00:12:18] Speaker A: Lucky, that sounds amazing. [00:12:24] Speaker B: I wish I was more like that now. I keep thinking, how could I be more like myself when I was in high school and I just said what I wanted to say and like, now I just overthink it all the time. [00:12:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I think. Well, I think there's a reason for that, and that is that there are more obvious punishments if you're not fitting properly. So, you know, in high school it can be in, as. You know, those punishments can come as social isolation and bullying. But if you do not care if you're in social isolation, then it's not really like a real punishment. And then. Sorry, go. [00:13:00] Speaker B: I was going to say I never got put in detention once. I think I got taken to the teacher's office one time, but I think it was because it was like an old girl school, so there was no risk of physical getting beaten up or anything. I mean, maybe, maybe that's again, like a generalization, but it felt, I don't know, kind of felt safe for you to challenge People and that I didn't think I was gonna get. I don't know. Yeah, anything serious happened to me as a consequence of that. [00:13:35] Speaker A: So that's a really interesting one because obviously gender is a construct, but it is a construct that does impact people and how they act. And we're still kind of trying to figure out the difference in sex and between like brain composition and hormones and how that affects behavior. But there was that study, was it like 10, 15 years ago, I don't know if you've seen it, where they put a group of, you know, 10ish boys in a house on their own for a week unsupervised. And they did the same thing with a group of girls and it immediately in the boy's house became like a Lord of the Flies situation. They like formed groups, they were physically bullying each other, they only ate, you know, sugary foods, they like just basically destroyed everything. So there is, was like more of a physical threat. But in the girls side, the first day they all got together on a whiteboard, you know, determined who had what chores, they were cooking together. There was and you know, there was no physical bullying the whole time. However, towards the end, the last few days, the relationship started to break down a little bit and they started forming groups and arguing that way, using more like words and emotional ways of like manipulating and bullying. You know, it's, it just kind of was expressed very differently based off of their gender. And so I think that's a really interesting one to consider. So maybe you didn't have that threat of physical violence, but was there like any pressure from girls in school? Because I know I certainly experienced that and I didn't go to an all girls school or anything like that. But there was that sense of like, you need that safety, that like psychological safety, I suppose. Oh, that would be a good topic. Psychological safety. That's a, that'd be a good one for us to do. Note that down. [00:15:28] Speaker B: But yeah, but that's, that's studio. It sounds like, I guess kind of a lot like my experience. So from yeah, initially kind of getting along to maybe one little sort of chink happening and then suddenly you're screaming at each other across the classroom and it's more of a who can use like the biggest words rather than anything else. But I don't know, I think, I don't know, I just kind of felt comfortable to take myself away and like I'd just go sit in the library and then that again, that sort of built parts of my identity then. That was my Performance was. And maybe that was like not damaging, but like maybe that was its own challenge in itself in that then I felt like I couldn't sit with people or I couldn't get myself involved because I'd created this identity, I was performing this identity where actually I was the person who would sit there and not talk to anybody and read my book and sit in the library. So I guess there's challenges that come along with also, like not conforming in a sense. [00:16:34] Speaker A: Well, yeah, that is such a good point because I felt like that too. So I went into school and was super awkward. I had a couple amazing friends that made life very enjoyable, but also like bearable in what I would describe as a hell hole. And we still describe it that way to this day. But I didn't feel comfy, had that identity. So I had that athletic identity as an athlete. I was playing volleyball, but I was also like the nerd or whatever. And you know, I didn't feel comfortable trying out new identities where it was like, let's try talking to these people or get it, like talk to this kind of group that, you know, are trying different things, that all that kind of stuff. And I really didn't feel confident performing that because I was like, well, I've. I'm this person. They all perceive me as this person. Even though inside my sense of self could be doing, going along these routes, I didn't feel safe enough to explore that. And then when I went off to university, I remember a moment like I was literally 18 walking into the first day and I was like, well, the last one didn't work. So that the key factor here is I went to university like across the country. It was a four hour flight, so nobody knew me. There was not a single person that knew me. And I looked at as like a fresh start. And you know what? A lot of people look at, you know, starting new things as like a fresh beginning and new starts and et cetera, et cetera. But I had also been like constructing, practicing, etc. Identities at a really conscious and unconscious level my entire life. So I remember the moment I walked in and I was like, okay, well, no one knows how awkward I am inside. So like my sense of self. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to construct my identity surrounding, you know, being that athlete, that blonde athlete, like having fun, partying, doing all these like cool kid things. Now, you know, I ask my partner Jack about it sometimes and he's like, well, everyone knew that you were like. [00:18:45] Speaker B: You were doing that good of a job at it. [00:18:47] Speaker A: And I thought I was doing great, but, like, I remember having, like, that moment in my head, like, okay, well, now no one knows me, so I feel comfortable performing that. Does that make sense? [00:18:58] Speaker B: Yes, totally. And I think I'm probably or can be the same, but it's. Yeah, the awkwardness and probably, like, anxiety is maybe more. Would that be my sense of self? Just like, anxiety is one sense of self. But then, yeah. And I. I would often have like, people saying to me, even, like. Like now, like, oh, Lori, you seem, like, so calm and relaxed, and I'm actually like, I'm like, panicking inside. But yeah, if you think that, that's fine. So, yeah, that's always fun. [00:19:31] Speaker A: I think from our conversations before, like, I don't know if sense of self can be anxiety, but I think that would probably. Maybe in our world, I mean, just anxiety is just like a normal function of life. I feel like, in our society. But I feel like anxiety can come from a misalignment of your sense of self and being able to express that over time. And that's what can lead to, like, burnout. And that's why I got my, like. One of the many reasons I had autistic burnout, which led me to my diagnosis really was that misalignment over time, along with not having, like, the correct support needs and stuff like that. [00:20:09] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay, so how would you say you almost like. Or working towards, like, rectifying that kind of difference or that performance? [00:20:23] Speaker A: Well, first, I think, like, identity performance is not always a bad thing. I think that's the important thing to know. It's. It's part of human nature. It's part of existing in a society that's just going to happen. And it's kind of how humans separate different aspects of themselves. Themselves, which is important, but it's also not to keep them completely separated from your sense of self. So I think it's taken some time and I'm only just kind of figuring it out. I think it is trying. About a year ago, I think I remember talking to you about it, like last August or something like that. Making a real effort to, like, engage in the stuff I enjoy without a focus on the performance of enjoying it. So, like, for example, being in sports, like, there's this, like. And I'm sure you've experienced the same. This need inside to feel like, well, I'm working with a professional football club. I'm doing this. And that's how everyone else knows that I'm good at what I do and literally spent years doing that. And firstly, these environments can be so problematic for women for any marginalized identity literally. And so that really contributed to issues. But my main thing was just getting hit. And then I realized, okay, well I'm going to be looking at process oriented things, not outcome oriented. I can't control if other people think I'm good or successful or whatever. I'm going to do the things I actually want to do. I was offered a job at a, you know what professional women's soccer club as their sports psych. And I said absolutely, not in the nicest way possible because I just wasn't ready and maybe I will in the future. But I couldn't do it. And then I started to lean more into research and our sexism work and things like that. And that kind of started a complete like, I've forgotten the word that I was going to use but it just like renewal. Renewal. No. Domino effect. That's the one. [00:22:36] Speaker B: Oh, okay. Yes, yes. [00:22:38] Speaker A: Of going like, oh shit, I've been doing so much stuff that I didn't actually enjoy doing for such a long time. [00:22:46] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, and I think that. And maybe like kind of similar, similar to you. I think kind of during that training to be a sports like time. Like I think what I found really confusing was like like how uncomfortable is this meant to feel? Right. Because it's a, it's a new thing. So therefore there is going to be a degree of discomfort and there's got to be a degree of. We kind of need to push through that as we learn and get more like competent and comfortable in these environments. But I just found that it like never stopped. And I was like, when is this going to get better? So similar to you. Like, so I was probably working in football for like maybe like three or four years. Ish. Until I was just like, you know, I just can't do this anymore and having to kind of shift environments and I think that's really difficult because to me it felt like I was failing. Like I hadn't figured out how to do this yet and it was like I've been doing this for X amount of years, why haven't I figured it out yet? And I think it was, I don't know, I kind of put it down to like less that it was something that I needed to figure out but actually just an environment and a space that I just didn't quite fit into and that was okay. And kind of trying to instead lean into spaces that I felt more valued and I guess, I guess More comfortable. I don't really like using word comfortable. I don't know why, but just more like at ease. But I think it's hard to sometimes say to yourself, like, you know what? Like, this isn't gonna get better. I think it's really, I don't know, easy to sort of stay and just keep pushing and hoping that it will get better. [00:24:33] Speaker A: Yeah. I think you realize you realized a lot sooner than I did that it's not about you, it's about the environment. Like, that's what was causing the issues. It wasn't you, it's the culture that you're in. Going back to what you said about, you know, the word comfortable, I think we're like, we're not against using it, but we struggle to use it. Because every the world, but also sport, the idea of comfort is, like, taboo. Like, how are you supposed to push yourself? Like, how are you supposed to push yourself and become the best version if you experience any comfort? [00:25:05] Speaker B: Isn't that bizarre? Like, I don't think I've ever really, like, thought about it that much before, but I definitely have, like an adverse reaction when it's like, comfortable. I'm like, oh, you shouldn't be comfortable. We need to get. What does everyone say? You need to get comfortable feeling uncomfortable. I'm like, can I not just sit home with a blanket and the TV on? But that's. Yeah, that's interesting. [00:25:27] Speaker A: You know what that's called? Hypervigilance. [00:25:31] Speaker B: That's the state we're just constantly in. [00:25:33] Speaker A: Yeah, no, literally. So I think. I think most people probably in society at this point are in a broad state of hyper vigilance. I mean, you have the state of the economy where we've got like families. You can't have anyone at home. Everyone's working. You know the politics of things going on right now. You know, everything going on in different countries, from like potential wars, just so much stress. And then down to our daily lives are quite stressful. Like, work expectations are through the roof because we can find people everywhere. You know, you can never hide from your boss. Was it Australia or New Zealand? Just made it like illegal to contact people after like 5 o'clock or something like that. It's awesome. So I think everyone's in a state of hyper vigilance to a certain extent. But then you add that sporting context where you just. There's this kind of like, vibe where you just have to be perfect, perfect 100% of the time. And even those of us who are telling our athletes every single day that's not sustainable. We're still engaging in that behavior. And I think that's one of the reasons I was like, I need to stop this, because what kind of example am I setting if I'm not looking after my own well being in that integration of identities, like going back to focusing on the identities I want to perform and getting in touch relearning what my sense of self is, has been kind of life changing. [00:27:00] Speaker B: Yeah. Like what you said, the identities that you want to perform. It's not that all identity performances are something we should get rid of, but we should be, I guess, like consciously deciding which ones we want and then which ones are. Which ones are maybe for ourselves and which ones are for other people. Like, I remember probably like maybe a year, two years ago, it was like around the time I just kind of started getting counselling for the first time. And I remember there was just like a little kind of switch where I just suddenly started wearing loads of band T shirts again and started not caring about what people thought and wearing them on, like, work calls and stuff. And it was like, so positive because people would end up, like, asking me questions about it and I would be able to talk to them about things I was actually interested in rather than like, performing a certain identity. And of course, yes, kind of wearing appropriate clothes is probably good in, like, certain situations. But I think even just that, like, just wearing what I wanted to wear was empowering in itself. [00:28:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Because how crappy is it when you're performing identities that have no relation to your sense of self? [00:28:16] Speaker B: You've. [00:28:16] Speaker A: You said, well, I can't wear band T shirts for whatever reason, consciously or subconsciously you realize. But that's a part of you. So what you're really telling yourself is, well, the world in this context. Let's. So, like, what? Work, academia, sport, doesn't care about who I am. Doesn't even want to know who I am. So I need to hide that to, you know, get ahead, succeed, whatever that is. How sad is that? [00:28:42] Speaker B: Yeah, like literally leave that part of yourself in the wardrobe. [00:28:45] Speaker A: Mm. Literally. Yeah. That's why I started my. Basically my first. Once I started kind of getting back into myself, I was. I've always wanted, like, tattoos. Not loads and not definitely not cool enough for like a big sleeve. [00:29:01] Speaker B: I think you totally pull that off. Definitely not. [00:29:05] Speaker A: I'm like, way too awkward for that. But like. And all. But we were also told, like. I don't know if you were told this, but like, the. By, like, people when we were growing up, like, you can't get a tattoo or you won't get a job, like, all that kind of stuff. And it's like, one of the nice things about being around now is, okay, there's less suppression, I suppose. There's more openness to who you are. But when it's coupled with probably more hypervigilance, it's still, like, quite stressful. Obviously, we're in a massively progressed age than we were 30, 40, 50, 60 years ago, but there are still problems. And I think that's why sometimes we struggle is because, like, there's. You know that phrase comparative suffering? Like, when I'm talking about sexism or, like, all these other things, and people respond like, well, it's better than it was. Like, cool. [00:29:56] Speaker B: Do I need to say something and apologize for our bad Internet? [00:30:00] Speaker A: There was no awkward pause here. Our Internet works completely fine. Let's move on. [00:30:06] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay, cool. So. Yes. Okay. So, yeah, you were talking about kind of like, I guess, kind of tattoos and, like, almost like, perceptions of that. And I remember when I first, like, told my parents I wanted to get a tattoo that they were the same. Like, what will people at work sort of think? And part of me was like, well, I've already got a job, so it's fine. I can always just hide it. But then. So I. So I got my first tattoo literally, like, a few weeks ago. Yay. And I remember one of the things that, like, helped me make the decision was actually going to a work conference and just seeing loads of other, like, successful academics and, like, researchers, like, with tattoos. And I was like, why am I, like, worried so much about what other people think? And so then I actually, when I was at that conference, I ended up booking my tattoo there. But really, yeah, that was one of, like, the biggest challenges for me, though, was just like, oh, God, like, what are the people gonna think of me rather than actually what did I want for, like, myself? [00:31:08] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. Yeah, it's. It's crazy how much other people's perceptions get built into, like, programmed into our brain, that we start to prioritize that over what we actually want and need. And, you know, that happens a lot to women. That happens a lot to autistic people and neurodivergent people. I mean, if you just look back at the kind of media from the early 2000s, you know, punishing women for being literally not a size zero, punishing women for having opinions, things like that, or if you're looking at autistic people who start at a very early age, if they're masking or highly masking, start to prioritize what other people think is necessary in society compared to what you need. And it's just like, so sad that so many and not. But not everyone, you know, a lot of people don't have this. And that's what I was going to say to you earlier. We're saying when you were saying about, like, how you worked so hard to construct that identity and like, you were like, but what could I do next? Like, this part of me isn't as bad for this environment. But, like, what else would. I was like, you know, not everyone thinks that much about how they're gonna, like, be perceived and stuff like that. So it's really sad that so many people have that need because it is a survival mechanism to a certain extent. [00:32:30] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And that just feels so bizarre to me, like, to think that other people don't think about it like, that much. It is kind of weird. Yeah. It's like, what must that be? Like, like, what are you, like, what are you even thinking about? Like, if you're not thinking about how you're being perceived and like, what people are gonna think about you and then what. What's. What are you thinking about? Like, so much time. [00:32:52] Speaker A: Can we please save this for a podcast? Let's, like, find some people that don't overthink every single thing they're doing and get them on and be like, so what? What do you think? What do you think? Like, because I've asked Jack that before and he's like, looks at me like I'm crazy. Like, what do you mean? You're like, pre scripting conversations. Like, well, you don't. He's like, well, sometimes I'll have like, fake arguments in my head or something like that. I'm like, oh, I never do that because that's really stressful. But, like, I'll free. Like, why would I put myself through that stress? Like, for fun, right? But yeah. Oh, my God, let's find some people. Like, what do they. What do you think? [00:33:33] Speaker B: Yes, we need answers. Like, what are we missing? What. What are we missing out on? But then that would make me feel stressed probably. Oh, my God, I'm thinking about that thing. Okay. Yeah, peace. That would be interesting. Like, I need to be, like, listening to music or watching some sort of TV or having some sort of information put into my brain so that it can not be just. Yeah, yeah. [00:33:58] Speaker A: Because I struggle. If I'm not doing that, then the pattern recognition is going crazy and I'm going, well, this could happen. This, this is the anxiety that you're talking about. That's what we're talking about. Okay. If anyone listening doesn't overanalyze and overthink every single aspect of what they're doing, please let us know and tell us how is that life? Please, please tell us. Also, I have a feeling that we're not going to attract those kind of people to our podcast. [00:34:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:29] Speaker A: Because we have a very specific vibe. [00:34:31] Speaker B: I'm not convinced those people exist anyway, to be honest. Not convinced. [00:34:36] Speaker A: Yeah, because. Because this is my, this is my thinking. Because when I ask people this question, like Jack and he says I'm not thinking anything, I don't believe him and I don't believe that he's lying. I think he's just not aware of what he's thinking. Because yes, especially I think girls and women are very aware of their thoughts and feelings from an early age for a number of reasons. Firstly, like they have to be and they're given permission to be, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Like, you know, the. I'm sure you've seen that joke on like TikTok and reels, like men having thoughts at 30 that women had when they were 8 kind of thing. [00:35:10] Speaker B: I haven't seen that. [00:35:12] Speaker A: Oh yeah, funny. But like the amount of clients I get who are like 20 something year old guys and the first thing I have to do with them is just a self awareness intervention because they're just highly unaware of what they're even thinking or feeling at the time. And so I totally get what you mean. Like, okay, well I don't really believe you that you're not thinking anything. I just think maybe you're just not aware of what you're thinking. [00:35:37] Speaker B: Aware 100%. And I have that with clients so much as, well, like if they'll ask them, I don't know if we're doing a certain kind of exercise or something. And I'm like, what were you thinking? They were like, nothing. I wasn't thinking anything. I'm like, there's like, like a kind of red flag. Maybe we need to work on this. Yeah, but it's so common. It's so common. But I think that's, I don't know, I suppose maybe a lot of people kind of just don't have that, aren't in that sort of space where they're even being asked like, what what are they thinking? [00:36:12] Speaker A: I think we're like forced into it very early for our training because we have to be super self aware so we're not like actively putting all these bias. And then that's what makes me stress out too. So, like, wait, is this me being biased, not believing that you're not thinking anything? Because that's my experience. Am I invalidating your experience? And it's just a constant? [00:36:32] Speaker B: Definitely. It's like, I'm like, I don't want to think that you're like lying to me almost. Yeah. And I'm like, hmm, like, maybe I need to just kind of trust what they're saying to me or whatever. But then I think that becomes, I don't know, after you work with clients who kind of share those kind of same experiences, then you sort of are able to, I guess, kind of more, with more certainty be like, yeah, like this is something that we need to work on and build. But it's not always easy because some people don't want to be like, aware of those things all the time. And I guess like with anything there's, you know, there's. You can be almost too self aware at times. Yeah, you can be too little self aware. But maybe like with us, maybe we're overthinking everything because we are too self aware. Do you think that's a thing? It's almost like the kind of like ignorance is bliss sort of thing. And I think, not that it's like a choice, but I. And I think I actually remember talking to like one of my old friends in school, like about this age ago, because we would always be like, why is like nobody thinking about the stuff that we're thinking about? Why are we thinking about all of these different kind of topics? And like, whatever. And we were like, it's, it's just making us stressed. But then at the same time, I wouldn't trade that for not thinking about it because it's something that's important. So I think there is that trade off. Like, we can be ignorant to like the world around us. We can be ignorant to our own thoughts and our own feelings. But I think that does come. Like there's that trade off, right? [00:38:12] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. That reminds me of a study. I think whether it was self awareness and. Or intelligence is correlated with anxiety and depression. So basically, the more aware of you are of yourself and the world that you live in, the higher likelihood you are of being super anxious or, you know, whether it's having depression or depressive symptomology. And that says probably more about our worlds than anything else. It just means you're aware of how shit things are sometimes. [00:38:45] Speaker B: So. [00:38:45] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes sense. How do we, this is how shit. [00:38:48] Speaker B: Things are like all the time. [00:38:50] Speaker A: Yeah, Constantly. It never ends. Like sometimes you can like get engaged in like a fantasy book where they've got a different stressful experience experience. And that's great. But then eventually when you have to stop and make dinner or something, you're like, oh yeah, there's an election in like a couple weeks in America that is very stressful. [00:39:08] Speaker B: Why I struggle so much with the news because it's always so depressing. [00:39:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I literally. So the 2020 election probably contributed significantly to like my burnout and like issues with well being and stuff like that. I was on the news every morning keeping track constantly. And I'm still keeping track now because you have to. And I want to be educated, but I'm just, I promised myself last time that I would never do that again because I'm not changing anyone's mind. I mean, it's this thing that we've talked about a lot where like, like the coping mechanism, for me a coping mechanism is like, oh, well, if I just tell you, if I just educate you on what's happening then then you'll change your mind. Like it just doesn't work that way though. Like I always try and like, well, I'm just excited explaining like if you, you have from my perspective, very like justice sensitivity is like a huge thing of mine. So like if the information's there and you're not, I feel like you're ethically bound to know these things and act upon them. And I think it's a problem for me of like putting that on other people because not everyone's like that. So I know you talked about it. You were like. When I sent, I think I sent that meme to you that basically said like, oh, I can just solve a problem by explaining. And you were like, wait, that's not what, Wait, what? [00:40:34] Speaker B: This is what I've been doing for 29 years. I'm like, yeah, it makes me think of when I. Because obviously we've been doing kind of. Well, you've been leading a lot of our like research on sexism, which has made me really think more about sexism and talking about it more like to my friends, like to my family. And I was so surprised that when I started talking about it that the perspectives were just completely different from like what we see or what we read, like in literature and kind of how we talk about it, I guess in more of an academic sense. Then I was like, I'll just keep explaining it and keep saying it and then eventually like It'll be okay. And I think there was almost like a panic associated with that of, like, why aren't we, like, on the same page? And I think that for me, kind of leads to this, like, over explaining because it's. I don't know, some people might say it's like a need to be right, but I think it's more like trying to just get clarity. [00:41:39] Speaker A: I. Oh, my God. I think you've just, like, triggered a, like, a thing that I experience. This is. I've always been told, like, you don't always have to be right. Chris, in. I'm like, well, no, I just want to clarify my thought process and what's going on. God. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I think I just, like, felt that in my gut. [00:42:00] Speaker B: Totally, Totally. And it's like, it's not that I, like, want to be right, it's that I want to. I guess, like, I want my point to be understood, but then I also want someone to tell me why my point isn't right. And I think that's often where I find, like, I'm not very satisfied is, like, people haven't given me a good enough reason for it to be something else. [00:42:18] Speaker A: Exactly. And I think that people can struggle with that a lot. So. Especially if it's a topic that, you know, we work in and are quite well educated in, I would never speak on. I, like, make an effort not to speak on topics that I don't know anything about. If I only have an opinion and nothing to back it up, I pretty much am silent about it. And so it can almost come across as, like, oh, Kristen thinks she's always right. Well, that's just because I don't say things that I know are going to be wrong. Do you know what I mean? And I think it can be a little intimidating for some people that when you're quite involved in a topic and you know how to speak on it, but they don't necessarily know how to speak on it, but they still have bias and opinions that make them uncomfortable to acknowledge. And so they don't necessarily want to engage in that conversation. So you're not given any information to prove that you're wrong, which is correct, but they're still upset. [00:43:18] Speaker B: And what you were saying there about, like, not almost, like, not sharing, not speaking if you kind of don't have all the information, Like, I think that's. I don't know. I've always found it difficult to, like, speak up in, like, groups or kind of larger groups of People, when there's, like, a conversation going on, even if I might have a thought or something kind of I want to say, it's like, if I'm not certain about something or how someone might react, then I just kind of. I just won't say it. But then that often leads me to kind of feeling worried about again. Like, what do people think? Like, what does this mean for how I'm performing? Like, a certain identity? Like, do people think I'm, like, really shy, or do people think I'm stupid? Like, that's something I think about kind of a lot if I'm not saying anything and. But then I think that makes it more difficult sometimes to bring out yourself, I suppose. [00:44:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you for bringing us back to identity. Because I realize that we've gone on a little bit of a tangent, guys. This is also our therapy. [00:44:22] Speaker B: I think it linked. It was a smooth, like, segue. [00:44:26] Speaker A: You did a great job with that. But, yeah, you're totally right. It's almost like you have to prove your value through the identity that you're performing. And that's where the issue is, is proving that value is okay, well, do they think I'm smart enough? Like, I'm a doctor. Should I be speaking all the time? Like, should I? But then when you speak, people are like, well, she's a know it all. Well, that's my experience at least, maybe because. But you also have a nicer, much nicer delivery than I do. And so I don't think anyone could ever think that about you because you explain and deliver things so nicely. Whereas I'm just like, I just don't have as soft of a delivery as you. And I don't know whether that's the tism or just I'm a bitch or what I think. [00:45:14] Speaker B: For me, it depends, like, who it is, like, I find. So around Matt's friends, so my boyfriend Matt, like, around his friends, sometimes I have, like, a shorter fuse. More just like, to the point, like, what is this? Whereas in, like, other environment, I think a lot of it comes down to, like, do I really care about what this person thinks about me? I don't know. But then. But then there's. Do I care about what they think? But also, do I feel comfortable around them? Because I would say I care what, like, Matt's friends think. But maybe it's more that I feel comfortable that I can say something. Whereas, like, maybe more in a work space, it's more difficult. I think maybe it is more of, again, like, a performance in terms of how I'm putting something across which is a bit more reserved rather than sounding like, you know, being definite and maybe like being shut down or whatever. [00:46:08] Speaker A: I think that really ties into what we were talking about, using identity performance as a safety mechanism. So like, you know that no matter what, like not no matter what, but like, for the most part, if you're arguing with Matt's friends, you're gonna be fine. You know what I mean? Yes. Psychologically safe. Everyone's got opinions. I'm sure everyone in the group has said stuff that, you know, you can just conversate or argue about and then it's fine. But in a workplace and potentially even more aggressively in sport have, you know, that doesn't necessarily, that's not necessarily the case. And you know, if you don't have certain privileges in sport, then really have to perform identities that help you fit. Because a lot of sport can be quite a monolith and it's obviously changing, but sport culture, you know, we should definitely do a podcast on the kind of like the history of the development of sport culture and why it is the way it is. But essentially a sport culture can tend to be at the stakeholder level that we work in. Quite white, quite male, very like old school opinions. It is almost like, well, if I don't kind of perform an identity that will fit in, I can't even get a job. Like, I won't be work, I can't work in football, I can't work in certain areas. And what ends up. Well, I guess what's ended up happening to both of us is we tried that and we said, oh, this is like not great for my mental health. And we left anyway. [00:47:38] Speaker B: Yeah, like, yeah, gave it a go. [00:47:42] Speaker A: But especially when you're starting out, you just don't know what the options are. So yeah, it's a tough, it's a tough process. [00:47:50] Speaker B: And I always kind of think like the. We were quite lucky in a sense that we did like, so we did like professional doctorate. So it was an academic and a kind of practice based qualification. So it meant that we kind of could go in either direction. Like we could do more of the applied stuff, like out on the field, so to speak, but then we could also go more down the academic and research route. And I think I'm so glad that I had those two options because I think by kind of realizing like, actually I maybe don't fit into say like a football environment or a team environment, even like in sport then we were able to kind of shift our focus and our commitment Down a route that was more in line with who we are and like where we feel like we fit, like, rather than trying to squeeze like you know, square peg into a round hole, like we were able to kind of reassess and look for different opportunities, I suppose. [00:48:52] Speaker A: Yeah, you're, you're right. We were really lucky that that's what the program kind of emphasized and that we felt comfortable doing that because I would imagine that a lot of people might, might not, you know, with certain, you know, training qualifications. It just, it just popped into my head because a lot of what we do and did, especially on the doctorate program, a lot of topics, topics around that identity and there's a lot of focus on identity and authenticity and stuff like that. And we talk a lot about how athletic identity is performed. So for example, if you know, somebody has been playing football since they were three and they've been in the academy since they were eight, and then you know, their whole life revolves around football and they haven't explored other interests and identities and they get let go from their football team at say like 18, 19. They have that, that's really negative for their well being and it's, it's been caused a lot of problems for people. So we work really hard with athletes to expand their identities and allow them that freedom. But when we don't allow ourselves to have that, it just seems super hypocritical. And then another thing that I wanted to touch on was that authenticity bit that we're like trained, trained in heavy quotes. We are recommended to be as authentic as possible. And I've always just found that like really confusing because if we're supposed to have these identities that we're constructing, how are we being authentic? It's very confusing. [00:50:21] Speaker B: Yeah, 100%. I remember always asking like other people, like on the degree, like, what does it mean to be authentic? Like what is that? Like it's just being yourself. And I'm like, but what, what does that mean? Like, I don't know, like, I don't like. And like you say, like we also talk a lot around like kind of setting boundaries and like not disclosing everything like about yourself, you know, obviously like in a session with a client. So then it's like, well, how am I being authentic? Whilst I also have a lot of boundaries set up that are almost preventing people from learning about who I actually am as a person. And I think that is, yeah, that's a process in itself and I think I'm a lot better at it now than I was. You Know, maybe when we're in, like, the first kind of few years of the training, but I think there's always that voice in your head like, oh, should I be saying this? Or should I be showing this part, like, of who I am? Like, is this appropriate? But yeah, that word authenticity, I think is like, how do you ever know? How would you even know if you're being authentic or not? [00:51:33] Speaker A: Like, I feel like some people know and they're probably the ones that don't overthink, and then some people will just never know. And we're pro. We probably fall into that category, but we're just trying our best. But then I would think that some people might look at us especially, like, now that we're being more ourselves and be like, well, they're clearly authentic because they don't have any issues showing their interests and, like, stuff that might be considered weird. So, like, it's also super. [00:52:04] Speaker B: Like, they must be offended. [00:52:06] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Like, they clearly don't care what people think. And then here we are in the corner, like, oh, my God, what do they think? Oh, my God. Yeah. So I just think to kind of like, round it out. It's, like, important to have your identities that you want that you can tie into your sense of self. And you're not always going to just be like, if we were just always ourselves, like, in touch with that side of ourselves, only doing stuff we wanted to do at all times, that's just not doable. That's just like. Even if we were just like back in the old days where we were just like hunter gatherers, we couldn't just always do the stuff we wanted to do at all times. You know what I mean? So we have to have identity performances. Is just making sure that that doesn't come at the expense of your sense of self. That doesn't, like, form a big barrier around that sense of self. [00:53:06] Speaker B: Love it. I think that's the perfect way to round off the first podcast. [00:53:11] Speaker A: Nice. Wow. We did it. [00:53:13] Speaker B: We did. Thank you. If you stayed to the end. [00:53:16] Speaker A: Yeah, right, I know. Because you and I like to have one topic and then we go on about 15 minute tangents with other ones. And this is just something that will probably never change. But we enjoy it. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, well, we did our first podcast. Wow. [00:53:37] Speaker B: We finally did it. We've had a lot of challenges, but now we're here. We'll see if it's recorded properly. [00:53:44] Speaker A: Yeah. But I guess to close. [00:53:46] Speaker B: To close. What should we do? Socials. [00:53:49] Speaker A: Yes. So we've. We are now social. Well, we have a degree of social media stuff going on. [00:53:56] Speaker B: A certain degree. [00:53:57] Speaker A: A certain degree. [00:53:58] Speaker B: We're an attempt. [00:53:59] Speaker A: An attempt. Because I guess that's just the world we live in. So you can find us on. But why pod on TikTok or Instagram? And Laura is an enigma floating in the atmosphere without social media. Oh, you've got a Twitter. It's like a Twitter. [00:54:13] Speaker B: I do have Twitter. You want my professional Twitter? Lswetnam. [00:54:19] Speaker A: Nailed it. [00:54:19] Speaker B: It's not that exciting. [00:54:21] Speaker A: And then I am attempting TikTok and Instagram. You can find me at Dr. Kristen on TikTok and Dr. Kristenm on Instagram. We can stick all that in the show notes as well. So our next topic is going to be probably ambivalent sexism and that's one we could talk about for ages, but it's a super interesting topic. Well, thanks for listening. [00:54:50] Speaker B: Thanks, everyone. Catch you soon.