Episode Transcript
[00:00:16] Speaker A: I just made myself a double coffee, so let's mentally prepare for that. All right. Welcome to the but why Podcast, where we explore the human experience through a psychological lens by asking, but why? I'm Dr. Kristen. Am I saying my full name? I don't know. I'm Dr. Kristen.
[00:00:33] Speaker B: I'm Dr. Laura. And today we're exploring the socioecological model.
[00:00:40] Speaker A: Ooh. This is something we've been talking about discussing for a while, and everyone's probably like, can you guys either shut up about it or tell us what it is?
[00:00:49] Speaker B: So just do it already.
[00:00:51] Speaker A: Just do it or don't do it. So we thought it would be a good one to address today, especially after last week's Met episode about mental health. And Laura and I. It's a Monday when we're recording today, and we're coming off the weekend, unfortunately not feeling super well rested. We've gone through some potential injuries. I almost sliced my finger off while cutting an onion.
[00:01:17] Speaker B: I was potentially concussed playing tennis.
[00:01:20] Speaker A: I feel like your stories to my tennis partner.
I feel like your story is a lot cooler than mine. Like, I can't use. I can't chop an onion. And you're like, I was competing and I got hit in the head.
[00:01:35] Speaker B: Yeah, it's just like, tennis is such, like, a safe sport. I think the worst thing that can happen is that you do get hit in the back of the head.
[00:01:42] Speaker A: I mean, that's not really ideal to get hit in the head.
[00:01:46] Speaker B: No, it's not ideal. Surprisingly, it didn't actually hurt that much in the moment. But then I got home, and I was like, am I okay? And then I messaged my mum about it, and she was like, you should really check if you're concussed or not. And then I started panicking about it. And, yeah. So I googled it. And then it, like, tells you all the symptoms, and I'm like, I feel like this half of the time anyway. Like, how am I meant to know if this happens?
[00:02:10] Speaker A: So what do you. What do you feel all the time, then? That feels like a concussion.
[00:02:14] Speaker B: So it's just like having a headache. Like, brain fog, I think. Just things like confusion, feeling tired, and I'm like, yes, this is life. Yeah, this is how I feel most of the time. And then I was thinking about. Right. So I was thinking about 10 things I hate about you. Have you seen 10 things I hate about you?
[00:02:34] Speaker A: Have I. It's literally my favorite. I love a.
[00:02:37] Speaker B: Thank goodness.
[00:02:38] Speaker A: I love a book where it's like, if it's a Romance book, like a Grumpy Sunshine vibe. And I love when the girl's the grumpy one, so it's my vibes.
[00:02:47] Speaker B: Good. I'm glad you said yes. Otherwise we may have had to stop the podcast and not be friends anymore.
[00:02:52] Speaker A: Not be friends, never speak again.
[00:02:55] Speaker B: So when she gets. She hits her head on the light thing and then Heath Ledger is like carrying her and he's like, don't go to sleep, you might have a concussion. And then so I was obviously thinking, maybe I should not go to sleep if I have a concussion. But then I googled it and it was like, sleep is actually important if you have a concussion.
[00:03:15] Speaker A: Yeah. I always, for some reason feel like maybe I just only learned it from the movie, but I. I think I.
[00:03:21] Speaker B: Only learned it from Heath Ledger and I've been ill informed.
[00:03:26] Speaker A: Yeah. But I feel like I'm sure my sister, Shout Out Molly has had a billion concussions and I'm sure she was always given that advice as well. So, Molly, you're going to have to comment and let us know if that's not true. Let us, let us know. Educate us. Molly knows everything about concussions, and though.
[00:03:45] Speaker B: We are doctors of psychology, we are not medical doctors. So please, if you have a concussion, don't just do what we say. And maybe I was going to say Google it, but to be honest, that.
[00:03:54] Speaker A: Probably doesn't help you either. Especially now. Ask your gp, Ask your gp, ask your doctor. Ask somebody who knows that isn't a search engine because that, like anxiety. Especially now that Google has the AI feature where it just kind of like takes what it finds on the Internet and sums it up in that top paragraph. And some of the stuff I see on there, I'm like, no, no, no, that's not, that's not great.
[00:04:21] Speaker B: Like trying to click that little link for the source. Like, let's see where you're getting this information. And it's just like a blog or something.
[00:04:27] Speaker A: Yes, exactly.
[00:04:28] Speaker B: I don't know.
[00:04:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
Oh, we've got a puppy attempting to intrude. Again, it sounds like.
[00:04:35] Speaker B: Yes. So if you hear banging noises, it's Stanley trying to get into the room.
Hopefully he doesn't.
[00:04:43] Speaker A: So I had a basically dog psychology appointment this morning. Oh yeah, for context, I have two dogs. I've got a rescue border collie and a lab that we've had since applying puppy. And we train and the lab's name is Thorin. And we trained him really well. But then when he was like maybe 10 months old, he got attacked by four small dogs in a park. And ever since then, he's just been in, like, an anxious mess. And so we got approved on our insurance to basically see a dog behavioralist. And literally this morning I was like, this. This person, you know, she's talking about cognitive and emotional conditioning. And I'm like, this is CBT for dogs.
[00:05:27] Speaker B: This is a cognitive.
[00:05:29] Speaker A: Cognitive behavioral therapy for dogs. And I'm like, I'm not really for cbt. Well, how does this fit into my philosophy of practice? Yes. Oh, my gosh. But, like, literally my morning, I was like, this is ridiculous. Like, I'm literally on a dog therapy appointment right now. My dog's not even in the room. It's just me talking about his experience. Experiences. Like, what a. What a world. But, yeah, hopefully we've got some stuff to implement because he's scared of everything.
[00:05:57] Speaker B: Well, I kept meaning to ask you how that was going on, how it was going.
[00:06:01] Speaker A: We haven't had an appointment for a while just because it was. I've been so busy. So I'll let you know in the next four weeks once I've implemented some of this cognitive and emotional conditioning.
[00:06:12] Speaker B: Oh, my goodness. Yes. I'm so excited.
[00:06:15] Speaker A: They also want to put him on an herbal supplement that's supposed to decrease anxiety. And I'm like, can I get some of this, please?
[00:06:22] Speaker B: Yes. So I saw. So I was looking for something.
I can't remember if it was for Stanley or the dog, Roger, but he. Because he was really stressed and he get. I can't remember what it's called.
Batch or something. Bach. Like, herbal remedy. Like, spray. And I used to use that myself for, like, anxiety. Just, like, spray it on your tongue. Oh, right. A pet version of it as well.
[00:06:46] Speaker A: Interesting. Very interesting.
[00:06:47] Speaker B: So you could get that if you wanted. A herbal remedy, I would recommend. I don't know if it does anything, but it does have a slight alcohol content. So I don't know if that's actually what's relaxing me.
[00:06:57] Speaker A: It's either the placebo effect, which is super powerful, or you're just getting drunk and Laura's just encouraging you.
[00:07:04] Speaker B: Yeah, one or the other.
[00:07:06] Speaker A: One or the other. And you know what? I don't care, as long as it works. It works.
Yeah. I feel bad for Thor. And Jack says all the time, like, he's basically just me in dog form. Just, like, overly aware and anxious when you leave the house.
[00:07:19] Speaker B: Yes, totally. This is what me and Matt say all the time. Matt's always like, you've made this dog autistic. And I'm like, It wasn't me, I swear.
[00:07:29] Speaker A: No, the first time I saw this dog therapist, they came over for like three hours to our house. The one this morning was online and she was telling me about all this, and it basically sounded like an autistic meltdown. And then she was like, he needs, you know, the routine. They need all this. And I was like, basically, you're telling me my dog's autistic? And she was like, kind of. Yeah. Like, literally, this is how I feel.
[00:07:54] Speaker B: About Stanley as well.
[00:07:57] Speaker A: Anyway, the research is saying, though, that, like, the dogs are so much like their owners, no matter what. Now, obviously, it can go both ways. Like the association, obviously they spend time with us and so they pick up our behavior. But we're also more likely to gravitate towards dogs that kind of have behaviors that we're familiar or comfortable with. So it makes sense. So don't feel too guilty because I said the same thing.
[00:08:21] Speaker B: She's like, there isn't guilty.
[00:08:23] Speaker A: Like, you didn't do anything wrong. He's just anxious anyway, so.
[00:08:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Her predisposition to anxiety brought out of them.
[00:08:32] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Oh, God. So, yeah, actually, maybe I should, like, plot his existence on the socio ecological model and say, okay, his individual experience is this. And then. Okay, how does that impact his relationships with other dogs and people? Look at his broader environment.
Did you catch idea? Catch my really subtle segue there?
[00:08:59] Speaker B: Love the segue. Totally works.
[00:09:02] Speaker A: I have broken my arm before falling off of a segue.
[00:09:06] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, I was thinking about that, but then I thought, that's a tangent. We probably don't know.
[00:09:14] Speaker A: We were talking before we started. Like, maybe we should avoid doing a 20 minute intro. I mean, we're only at 10 minutes right now, so we're. Okay. We. We did it.
[00:09:23] Speaker B: Good. We've halved it. We have halved the time.
[00:09:25] Speaker A: Assuming we move on right now. Yeah, that is the assumption.
Yeah. I was riding on a subway, first time ever. So confident. So confident. The pictures are hilarious. Because it's just like me, like, yeah, I got this. And this was called, like in the training thing. Like, they have you, like, do some like. It's not training, it's just like in a. Basically like a parking lot and you just kind of go in circles and they make sure you're not a complete idiot, which apparently does not work.
And then after we spend like 15 minutes, like, going around and getting comfortable, they gave us ones with bigger wheels. And I was like, why didn't we train on the ones with bigger wheels?
[00:10:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:01] Speaker A: So I wasn't Used to how wide it was. Jack was behind me. And he basically just said I was going straight. And then all of a sudden, I just started drifting. And before he could say anything, I ran into a white picket fence. And it just, like, kind of grabbed onto the side wheel and, like, completely chucked me into the middle of the road. And then I just have, like, a.
[00:10:26] Speaker B: Cartoon in my mind where, like, you know, something's just, like, spinning around loads. And then it just, like, gets, like.
[00:10:31] Speaker A: Shut off into the distance, into the middle of the road and where, like, all the cars are and stuff like that. And then I, like, got up things like that.
[00:10:40] Speaker B: Dangerous, moving vehicles.
[00:10:43] Speaker A: And then I, like, sat down for a second and I thought it was my wrist at first because the adrenaline was going. And I was like, I can do this. I'm gonna get back on.
I stepped back onto the Segway. I barely remember this. And then everything just goes black.
And I don't think I fell off again, but I don't remember how I got off. But what I do remember is I was. It was the first day of our three week vacation, and I was like, we were supposed to go to a really nice restaurant, and I really didn't want to miss out on it. So I was like, nothing's broken. I'll be fine. So we just went straight to a bar.
And so we have a picture of me, like, with this massive thing of ice on my wrist, which it wasn't my. My wrist, with, like, just a massive drink. And I'm like, I feel fine. This is great. And then as the adrenaline wore off, I was like, yeah, I need to go to the hospital. It needs to happen. So I love how the priority in.
[00:11:43] Speaker B: Your mind was, like, food and drink. My arm's fine.
[00:11:46] Speaker A: Yeah, it'll be fine. It's just an arm. And then I basically had to wear this bionic arm. We were doing wine tasting in California, and I had all these really pretty dresses. I just got this massive bionic arm. And we went to Hawaii afterwards because it was our anniversary. And I, like. We were supposed to do all this, like, swimming and scuba diving, and Jack just, like, recalls me just, like, swimming in circles with the one arm that did work.
Yes. Oh, yes.
[00:12:17] Speaker B: Sometimes.
[00:12:19] Speaker A: Anyway, speaking of segues, let's. Let's casually segue back into the actual topic we said we would discuss.
Segue. The Segway segue. The segue. The segue probably isn't a word I should use because it just, like, triggers all these memories of, like, this really hilarious trauma.
Like, it was so bad that when I. We were coming back from Hawaii, the TSA agent was like, so that's like the airport security in America was like, so how'd you break your arm? I was like, I fell off a segue. He was like, no, how'd you break your arm? Like, basically. And obviously me not understanding that interaction of like, I fell off a Segway. And he basically, like, back and forth for like three times. And he basically told me, like, you need to tell somebody. It was like surfing or something. Way cooler than that.
[00:13:04] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. So you didn't get it either? I was like, no, I did not get it. I didn't get it. Okay, now I get it. Yes.
[00:13:10] Speaker A: Yeah, He's. This is autism.
Okay. We're like 14 minutes in, so it's time. We can do it. Let's build some. This is what happens when I get overly caffeinated.
So socioecological model. Super, super important. And something that we don't really get taught in school. It's not like we get, you know, really explicit information about how individual through to interpersonal and broader, you know, environmental things impact us all, like, in, like, in a very interactive way. But this specific model provides a really comprehensive framework for understanding how multiple layers in somebody's life influences their beh. Behaviors and just like general life outcomes. And so this was developed by. I don't know if I'll get this to the first. I always. I hate saying this name. Yuri Bronfenbrenner. So he's a Russian American psychologist from the 70s when the kind of like, educational psychology was started, kind of really booming.
And it was initially called ecological systems theory and explaining how different environmental systems interact and to influence kind of our development as human beings. And his focused on mainly child development. And this is used quite a lot in education, but it's evolved to be used for, like, public health.
We use it a lot in our research and just like, understanding general human behavior. And I'm convinced from my own knowledge of psychology that almost no governments used a health psychologist during the COVID pandemic. Like, absolutely convinced, because they did not approach it in a way that ex. Like, do you know what I mean?
[00:15:02] Speaker B: Yeah, that's such a good point. I hadn't thought about that before.
[00:15:05] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Like, every time I see this model and, like, how they use it for public health, I'm like, well, where was this when we literally had a whole world and multiple countries just completely failing at understanding how humans interact with information and with viruses and stuff like that? Yeah.
[00:15:24] Speaker B: And it links back to what you said right at the beginning. So in terms of. This is stuff that we don't get taught about, it's not kind of something we get educated on. And I. It's kind of bizarre, isn't it? Because these are, like, literally theories that explain how, like, say, humans behave or how we live our lives, how we develop, like, the systems that we live within, which makes so much sense to us. Like, hopefully when you guys kind of hear about, you know, the different sort of layers, you'll be like, yeah, like, that makes sense. Like, that's life. But we don't get taught these.
Yeah. Theories to conceptualize it. Unless you are, I guess, studying psychology or, like, education.
[00:16:11] Speaker A: So, yeah, I know, I know. My other sister, Shout Out Madison, uses this a lot in her work.
And so it was cool to see how she uses it in practice.
So. So, yeah, it does go back to that educational system and that awareness almost, because, like, once we make each level clear, it's easy to understand and go, oh, this interacts with that. But actually, if you don't have almost like a framework to put your thoughts and ideas against, it can feel quite. Almost daunting and jumbled around and, like, how things interact. And humans like to categorize things, basically, so it makes more sense. So that's why I really like. This is it. Groups everything in. So imagine you've got, like, five circles all inside each other. So at the very. And if I'm explaining this really poorly. Laura, stop me. And you're welcome to explain it because you're way better at it, I feel like.
But so at that, like, really inner level, you have the micro system. So that individual level that's. This is Bronfenbrenner's. And then it evolves a little bit. So for him, it was the immediate surroundings, like family and school. Then you have the broader meso system. That's that outside circle, and that's interconnections between microsystems. And then you have the exostem, exosystem, which is broader social settings, and then the macro, which is cultural. And then later he added a fifth layer, which is the chronosystem, which is kind of like changes over time and all these different things. Now, the version of it that we use is a little bit evolved from that. But before I really go into that, I wanted to maybe chat about, you know, how this is used and why it's used to really emphasize the importance. So I think maybe taking that kind of like public health, whether it's physical or mental health perspective might provide a bit of context. So you can use it for pretty much anything. But because we're kind of talking about health, mental and physical, I figured we'd go down that road. So public health kind of researchers and professionals have kind of adapted and expanded on that. So now it's called the socioecological model and it includes similar levels, but it more emphasizes for them how like policy and environment impact those individual actions and behavior. And it basically emphasizes that people's actions and their physical and mental well being are shaped not just by personal choices and your internal thoughts and feelings, but also by your relationships, your communities, policies that are in place, cultural norms and things like that. So for example, you could put, you know, you, Laura, you could clone you three times and put you in three different, completely different cultural systems.
Systems and you would turn out completely different. You might have different behaviors and things like that. So the approach is so valued because of all the different, I mean, sorry, valuable with all these different layers because it just gives that really holistic view of human behavior. So it goes beyond that narrow focus on individual choices by showing really that broader social, environmental policy context really do shape behavior. And this can really help with a more nuanced understanding of why people make certain choices. Like. So if we're talking physical health, we're talking diet, exercise, substance use and mental health, we're talking about, you know, if they're engaging in kind of the stuff we talked about last week.
[00:19:46] Speaker B: And it makes me think, it's making me kind of think a little bit about the episode we did on psychological safety and kind of workplaces and how, which, which kind of circle would we say kind of links into like work. And so that's my role.
[00:20:02] Speaker A: I would say I'll go into it more, I think, when I go into the more modern approach, but I would say organizational.
[00:20:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:12] Speaker A: So I don't know if you want to expand on that or save it for when we talk about that level.
[00:20:17] Speaker B: Yeah, maybe we'll link that into that later. But yeah, maybe just keep that in mind. So yeah, this idea of how also the systems that we work within impact well, ourselves and kind of our well being, our behaviors and so on. And it's kind of almost like to me like feels a little bit scary in a way because I think we'd like to believe as human beings that we have a lot of control over the things that we do. But actually there are all of these systems which are feeding into.
Yeah. How we behave and how we're feeling, which we don't necessarily have an awful lot of control over.
[00:20:53] Speaker A: Yeah, there's that significant lack of control from that broader policy level, which is what, like you said, it's so scary. And I, that's why I get so scared of what's going on in the States. But that kind of made me think about how some cultures, and I think that, you know, Western culture is really bad for this, are super individualized and such. There's such a focus on individual choice and things like that that we forget about that broader community interaction. And so I honestly think that the mental health of these more community driven kind of cultures is way better because of that, because they are actually focusing on kind of again we come back to that word intent. There's a lot of intent in developing their environments and their community and things like that. And that gets a lot of focus where for us maybe in more individualized cultures we're really focusing on the me like that in that innermost circle rather than looking at our interpersonal and our like organizational and trying to kind of guide broader cultural stuff.
[00:21:58] Speaker B: Yeah, and I was, I was actually at a, a talk not long ago with. I can never say it's like Pete Olusoga. Do you know Pete? Oh, I love him. I might be saying his last name wrong and I also might be misquoting him here. So please don't hold me to this, but he was doing a talk about kind of burnout and stress in sport coaches. And we were kind of, he was talking about who the responsibility is on in order to like minimize stress and burnout and how often this is put a lot on, like you say the individual. So in this case it's put onto the sport coach, not necessarily the organization thinking about how can we change whether it's kind of the hours of work or the way that we do things in order to reduce instances of stress. It's very much like put on the individual. And I think he gave an example of, you know, like they might, the organization might put like yoga sessions on in order to help them, but that's still then on the individual to kind of go into these sessions.
But it's not like it's one or the other, it kind of has to be both. And you know, that's probably something that this model helps us to see is that there are these multiple different layers that we have to address in order to support someone, I suppose on a holistic level. Really.
[00:23:20] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that that's such a good point and I think I love, you know, that use of holistic we're not just addressing one area of one person's life, we're addressing as many as we can possibly do it. And there is that if you are working for, you know, a certain company or organization, they're part of your community. And so focusing on that for, you know, improving mental and physical health outcomes is super important.
And so just to name a few other things, reasons why it's important. So the model gives us some guidance for intervention. So like what Laura was saying, like where do you place this experience in the model? Is it in my organization or is it me personally struggling with a current issue in my life that I don't have good coping mechanisms for things like that. So it helps, like kind of helps whether it's like at that bigger level like policymakers or individually like identify the intervention points. So for example, so if we're looking at to reduce smoking rates, interventions might not just, that's my word today, might not just target individuals with education but also communities with smoke free policies and social support system. It's not just about educating the individual, it's about the whole system. And that's what we, a lot of the work we do with sexism as well. The model can help address inequities, which is how we use it in our research. So looking at the broader social and environmental detriments encourages multi level solutions. So we, we now know where the intervention points are and now we can act on that. And again like lastly it's quite flexible. So there can be a number of different things you're seeing in each layer that you can choose or not choose depending on your resources to address. So overall that's kind of the benefits of the model and it promotes a deeper understanding of human behavior and really just supports the development of like comprehensive and like really importantly sustainable solutions.
It's just like a very real world application of theory and for some reason it just popped into my head a better way of explaining the model. So you know like measuring cups. So like if you've stacked all of your measuring cups inside each other and that inside measuring cup is individual and then that kind of, then that's the interpersonal is the next one and then so on. Do you know what I mean?
[00:25:47] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I like that. Measuring. Measuring cups.
[00:25:51] Speaker A: Yeah. What do you call them?
[00:25:54] Speaker B: I don't know, probably maybe the same. I don't know. What, I don't, I, I personally don't have a name for them, but there is probably one. I don't know. I'm thinking of things you have on like the little key ring.
[00:26:06] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, that.
[00:26:08] Speaker B: Yep, yep.
[00:26:09] Speaker A: Sometimes we struggle with our. We speak the same language, but not really. We were talking, talking about Laura's hair this morning. And for her it's fringe, and for me it's bangs. And so. Yeah, yeah, same, but different.
And, you know, half the time I can figure out what's going on. I don't know.
Is there anything you want? Are you sure? No, I'm not sure. Definitely not sure.
Do you have anything to chime in before I explain the actual more modern framework?
[00:26:45] Speaker B: No, I don't think so. Let's get into the more modern.
Yeah, okay. I was going to say more modern measuring spoons, but that probably we're on spoons now.
[00:26:55] Speaker A: Okay. Oh, yeah.
[00:26:57] Speaker B: Maybe that's what I call them. Cups. Maybe cups is more American and we're more spoons. Who knows?
[00:27:02] Speaker A: Yeah, but spoons and cups are different. Like, we also have measuring spoons.
[00:27:08] Speaker B: Maybe that's what I was thinking about.
[00:27:10] Speaker A: If you're not watching the video, Laura's just, like, making. She's, like, trying to work out what it is by making the movements of measuring something from a spoon.
[00:27:19] Speaker B: I think we need to add an image of what we're talking about for context.
[00:27:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
We should both separately send each other what we mean and then we'll see if it's done.
[00:27:33] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah, let's remember to do that.
[00:27:36] Speaker A: Okay. I probably won't remember until I'm, like, running through this again to edit it. And I'll be like, oh, crap, we were supposed to figure out what we were talking about.
I mean, what do you mean? That never happens. We always know what we're talking about. Yeah. All the time. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
So, again, the socioecological model illustrates that individual actions and physical and mental health aren't just only determined by your own choices or your biology and things like that. They're influenced by multiple interconnected layers. And so that's one thing that I want people to really keep in mind is these layers, even though we're trying to lay them out, as in, like, a bunch of circles inside of each other, they all interact. So it's like. What is it? Osmosis? It's been a while since I've had biology where, like. Where, like. Yeah. Where it's like, leaking into. That's not. Definitely not the right term, but it's like going from, like, different levels.
[00:28:30] Speaker B: Is it diffusion? No.
[00:28:32] Speaker A: Maybe. Maybe I don't know any biologists.
Yeah, yeah, sorry. We're not wrong.
But, like, it's. They're all like interacting with each other on various different ways. So that's what I want you guys to keep in mind.
So let's break down the layers properly. So on that really inside layer we have what's now called the individual level.
No individual level.
So this focuses on personal characteristics. So you know, your knowledge, your attitude, belief skills, biological factors, your emotions, you know, genes, age, coping mechanisms, and so really on those factors that influence your behavior and your state of mind. So if you were to look at an intervention at this level, if we're kind of keeping on that maybe public health situation, it might include education, building skills, promoting self efficacy, which to kind of summarize is almost like a self confidence vibe. But also no one come at me because I know it's a very complicated term in the literature.
So, and so basically this, you know, at that individual level promoting healthier choices.
And then we have that interpersonal level. So that's when you move out one level and that's the relationships that you have with other people, especially like closer people. So we're talking about family, friends, colleagues and others that again, if we're taking that public health point of view, that might influence somebody's health choices.
So social dynamics and family dynamics and social networks, peer influence can all really have an impact on that individual level. So think about how having a positive versus maybe perceived as negative social interaction can affect your own emotions and things like that.
And then we move out again towards the organizational level. And that's more like what you were talking about with work. So institutions and organizations like schools work, healthcare systems, things like that.
And so this is where we look at policies, structures and practices like okay, do we have a policy where we're giving you yoga or do we have a policy where we're encouraging health through like email boundaries? So not after a certain time of day, are we giving you lunch, off to work out if you want to, or go for a walk, are we, you know, things like that at the policy level. And we also see at the policy level also like support, so pathways for support, are we supporting you if there's an issue and things like that. So continuing with that like public health thing and an intervention might be changes in policy like implementing smoke free zones or providing mental health resources.
And then we move to the broader cultural and community level. So that's your broader environment, your neighborhoods and your communities. And also just like the general kind of cultural vibe that you're working in. So cultural norms, excuse me, socioeconomic status, access to resources. Let me think about how important at that individual level being able to access a certain resources and that's infrastructure as well.
So that's like maybe let's improve our neighborhood safety, let's increase access to parks and gyms and stuff like that. And then finally, and then I'll stop talking. We have that kind of broader policy and societal level. So that's like the larger social, political and economic policies that shape our lives on that broader scale that we kind of touched on earlier. So if you're in the states, does each state have a different regulation on certain health things? Like we talk about abortion a lot, which is the case.
The same is with economic policies. And so, you know, I think in our sexism episode we touched on how economic policies impact men and women so differently and things like that. So if you look at that broader, even like women, I think it was just a couple weeks ago, women, it was the 50 year anniversary of women being able to get Credit in the U.S. oh, lost my earphone.
Hello.
So like you can see how that broader societal level filters through. So let's say the law is women can't access credit and then it filters down to that community level into that next circle of okay, well now your neighborhood is, can maybe design like that traditional 50s kind of vibe. So you maybe have a bunch of women staying at home because they either can't work or, you know, they're not owning the homes, the man's off. And that shapes how the neighborhood looks at that organizational level. I mean, even just put as simply, like you wouldn't have women working in banks, you wouldn't have women in the organization. Interpersonal level, this is work. It's really tricky because if women can't access a bank account or credit, then they have to stay. They're relying on these interpersonal relationships really for survival.
And so they can't maybe leave an abusive relationship or just something they're not happy with. And that could impact all the way down to that individual level, whether that's your physical safety or your mental health. Does that make sense?
[00:34:03] Speaker B: I think that's a really good example. And I, and it made me kind of think around the word like stereotypes. So how we might have these stereotypes at what would you say? More of a societal level perhaps?
[00:34:16] Speaker A: Yeah, I would say, I would say stereotypes probably start at that broader societal level, but can also be community oriented as well.
[00:34:24] Speaker B: Yes. And then they filter down into like we're saying kind of what happens within organizations or how you might be communicating with someone who has say a stereotype about women or about men. Or whatever it might be.
So then that's coming through in these conversations and how, I guess just assumptions are being. Being made.
So I think that's something that we talk about a fair bit in kind of our work in sexism and about how these stereotypes about gender kind of filter through the layers.
[00:35:02] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, that brings it in. I think it would be good to touch on our. Our work a little bit because so we use this model for a paper on sexism in sport, and it's, you know, been really well received, you know, and it's. It's one of the most read papers. Well, it is the most read paper this year on the journal. So it's obviously, you know, people are getting something from it.
And so we used this model because we know that it recognizes that all these levels interact with each other and creates that really dynamic system that impacts, you know, people's behavior and their wellbeing. And, you know, research shouldn't just be done for research sake. We want to find out where the problems are in order to solve them. And so, you know, using this model allows us to kind of do that. So we had just over a hundred women who work in sport, and they took a survey and gave a mixture of qualitative and quantitative answers. Now our published study is just the qualitative because there was just so much data.
[00:36:06] Speaker B: We had way too much.
[00:36:08] Speaker A: And also what I'll say is I remember. Do you remember when we were analyzing the data? So we go through something called thematic analysis. There's different types. I really won't go into that because then I'll go on another tangent that definitely no one's interested in.
But, you know, you kind of really have to get involved in the data and you have to read it so many times. And there were so many horrific stories that Laura and I were actually had to like, decompress quite a bit afterwards.
So I don't know necessarily what I want to talk about in our study, but I thought I might just read through what we found at the different levels maybe, do you think? And maybe we could just chat about it.
[00:36:52] Speaker B: That sounds good.
[00:36:53] Speaker A: Okay, so let's start at the individual level.
We only found one theme for this, and so that was coping mechanisms. So that was how women managed to cope with their experiences. So like a quote was, I think we mentioned even in our last episode about mental health, not many options available to you at this point besides screaming into the void.
And, you know, that we would call that emotional coping. A lot of women left sport when their, you know, Experiences weren't addressed and that that's what we would call avoidance based coping, which was the most common one. So any thoughts on that before I.
[00:37:32] Speaker B: Kind of move on maybe just interesting to note that like avoidance coping is well, often cited as like the least.
I don't know what the word would be.
The least.
I can't think of a word. Or the least productive type of.
[00:37:51] Speaker A: Yes, I was going to say least beneficial.
[00:37:53] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, least beneficial. And I think, yes, I think with avoidance based coping, I think often we see it helping in the short term but not necessarily the long term. So it's almost like waiting for something to come back to bite you, like you're sweeping it under the carpet. You're kind of trying to pretend that it doesn't exist so you can just get on with your day. But actually that's going to keep coming up.
So we really try to work more towards I guess problem based, so trying to find a resolution for a problem or the emotion kind of focus coping. But I think something we know notice with within this study, when women were talking about experiences of sexism or how they deal with it, like the problem focused coping just wasn't really an option. So that might be kind of reporting it or going through certain pathways for support, but it just wasn't there for them to actually do that.
[00:38:54] Speaker A: Yeah. And the women who did engage in the problem focused coping over time just got sick of nothing happening or they were kind of afraid it was going to start to negatively impact them so they left. And we do have some quantitative data. Nearly 40% of women said that if they reported sexism in their organization there would be a negative consequence to their reputation or that they, or their career even. And so that almost shows how at that understanding, at that end, individual level that if I report something there's going to be a consequence to me personally impacts them, you know, that impacts how they're coping with that they're avoiding rather than trying to solve a problem. And then that impacts like that broader organization because okay, well now all the women are gone because they're just getting kind of like either harassed or just kind of like silently kind of mistreated out of the picture. So it's just that interrelation really again.
[00:39:52] Speaker B: Yeah. And this comes again. I just keep thinking about the psychological safety stuff. Like it is, it is not safe if you are calling something out and trying to be vulnerable and candid about something and actually you're just being shot down or minimized or told that what's, you know, you must Be seeing in the wrong way or that doesn't exist or don't worry about it, rather than actually feeling like you're being heard in a psychologically safe space.
[00:40:20] Speaker A: Yeah, you know what? That really links in really well. That links in really well with the interpersonal experiences that were happening. So, you know, 60. What was it? Let me look.
So 80 of the women experienced sexism. And 65% of them, when they called out the sex, the sexism, they just were like, oh, it's just banter. It's like. And so you're immediately shut down like your experience is not real. And like, then they would also get the sexual comments and behavior and a lot of condescending behavior. So being treated as inferior. And so you're so much likely to feel psychologically safe to even step out of the box in any way, whether that's to even just do your job or call out a problematic experience. So, like, every woman has probably experienced this, but being double checked. So, like, the group is asked a question and I answer, but it's always double checked, so I no longer bother answering until no one knows the answer.
And so that interpersonal relationship has stopped this individual from doing their job. And so that can have impacts on their performance and how they're perceived in the organization. And it's just really linking all these different. How these stereotypes, like you said, impact the individual. Because policing gender stereotypes was a massive theme of ours at that interpersonal level. Like, we would see these broader social stereotypes about women meant that the women in these organizations were kind of expected to do more secretarial work and clean up after their colleagues and make them teas and stuff like that. So, I mean, my first role in a football organization, it took them six months to stop, like, getting them to stop asking me to make them tea.
[00:42:03] Speaker B: Ugh, how awful. I would just be like, you know, I'm terrible at making tea anyway. You don't want me to do that.
[00:42:10] Speaker A: Yeah. After a while I just said, dude, I'm American. Like, I don't drink tea. And also, that is not my job.
[00:42:17] Speaker B: So how mad is that? Like, like, again, this is the thing. It's these stereotypes that kind of trickle down and impact people's behaviors. To even ask that question or to make that assumption that that is your role.
And maybe it kind of helps in some ways for us to put a slightly different perspective on behaviors that we might see. So maybe like sexist behaviors that we might see, whether that is from men or from women, but to perhaps have almost like a little bit of extra information around how they're being influenced by the system that they are within.
[00:42:56] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. And that's really useful. We can see like, you know, leading to that organizational level. Okay, is this stuff tolerated? And so, you know, are we allowing this to happen? Is there a pathway for support if this happens? I mean, in our research, 40% of it was covered up by the organization.
They were. There was a lot of encouraging sexist behaviors. And what we did also tend to see at this organizational level was the boys club, that kind of informal group of men that really exclude women and stop them from integrating into that organization. Again, showing like they're not capable of working because they can't even get any work done. We also had a. And so at that organizational level, we'll start to see, okay, there's that interpersonal stuff in the organizational level and then there's the policies. So like that lack of pathway for support and then there's that like actual physical stuff that actually ended up being a barrier for women. So there weren't women's toilets, women's bathrooms, you know, so they weren't provided with adequate facilities for changing or using the bathroom and things like that. So we can really start to see how it's widespread. It's, you know, how places are constructed and built, what has been considered.
[00:44:14] Speaker B: And I think this is something that is like quite unique for sport culture. I could be wrong. It'd be interesting if anyone else is in kind of different cultures and environments to let us know if kind of facilities is something that comes up for you as well. But this makes me think about. So the extra layer, I think, Kristen, that you've kind of added yourself.
Not just added or coined perhaps. So around, like, is it like a sports specific culture that you might have?
[00:44:45] Speaker A: Yeah. So I think that the broader culture, I think there's like another layer that isn't accounted for yet. So we have like that neighborhood communities level and then we have broader societal culture. But I think that certainly, I don't know, industries, I don't know if that's the right term. But say sport or even if it's like fashion or movies, they all have their own unique subculture that's going to impact this as well. So the reason sport exists the way it does is because it's a great way for men to kind of demonstrate their dominance in the world. And women have been excluded from sport from like for ages. And we can maybe do an episode on that.
The exclusion of women from sport is actually a major tool of patriarchy and So I really do think that that sport level really impacts because. Because you look at how, you know, women were so excluded from sport that the stadiums aren't even designed with their, their like toilet needs in mind. So. Yeah, yeah.
[00:45:51] Speaker B: Bizarre.
[00:45:51] Speaker A: I know it is bizarre. We think it's bizarre, but then we go in, they think we're bizarre. So.
And then we didn't go. We didn't go all the way to that fifth layer. We only went out to that sociocultural level because we didn't really address that overtime change in this study. But overall we just kind of have like that overall exclusion from equal treatment and opportunity and holistic. How holistic views and beliefs based on these gender stereotypes impacted people. And I'm going to read Laura's favorite quote. I think it's your favorite because you read it all the time.
[00:46:27] Speaker B: I always read this one.
[00:46:28] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So the quote says, I was asked in the UK at a work event how it's weird grammar but how strange it was that I drink black coffee and beer and I play contact sports. They literally said, this is not what a lady does. The fact that the UK education system segregates in school by gender. Women play netball, men play rugby and so on is automatically telling society that women should not play men, men sports in heavy quotations. Society tells girls that this is not what a lady does. And that again, just really demonstrates how at that individual level being told these things, these stereotypes that are created at that broader socio cultural level just has such an impact on, okay, well, am I gonna play basketball, am I gonna play football?
And things like that.
[00:47:21] Speaker B: So it's, it's just so bizarre, isn't it? Because if you don't think about it, it kind of feels like it makes sense in a way, but it really does not make any sense. Like, why are we being like you say, it's like segregation segregated in this way.
Why is it kind of this push to almost really not, not the right word, but to I guess add a kind of gendered split in terms of sports that you're participating in. And I think that, yeah, you don't really understand kind of the message that that sends to people until you really consider it. Like, I remember when I was younger and I had, I wanted to play football, but the only one I could go to was like outside of school. So they didn't do football in school. It was an all girls school. So I remember going to a session outside of school, but it was just all boys. And I just felt so uncomfortable. And that I think is Interesting in itself. Like, especially if you look nowadays, like, obviously there are more kind of spaces for girls to, like, go and play football. But what, like 20 plus years ago, like, there were no opportunities for that, and that was just considered normal.
[00:48:36] Speaker A: And that alone probably was exclusionary because you were like, like, I'm super uncomfortable. I'm not gonna want to play a sport where I feel like I'm the other. You know.
[00:48:45] Speaker B: Yeah, I didn't go back again. I went once and I was like, this is super awkward. I'm not going again.
[00:48:49] Speaker A: That sounds like my entire life.
Yeah, exactly.
Oh, yeah. I think it's. It's an interesting perspective for me because the UK is so much more progressive than the US in a lot of things. But one thing I did realize when I moved over here is that the relation, relationships, those interpersonal and broader organizational relationships and even how you're structuring school and stuff are so much more, like in quotes, traditionally gendered. Like, do you see that? Oh, what just happened?
[00:49:22] Speaker B: I don't know. There were balloons.
[00:49:24] Speaker A: I don't know what happened.
If you're not watching, if you're just listening, like a. Like, how would you describe it? Balloons just started going across my screen and I have no idea why. I'm not touching any buttons. No, thanks.
[00:49:44] Speaker B: Maybe it was something he said.
[00:49:45] Speaker A: Maybe I said traditionally gendered and did this with my fingers.
Congratulations. Congratulations.
Oh, my God. What the hell? Okay, what was I even saying? But yeah, I do. I do feel like it's. It's still definitely gendered, but it's like, even when I came here and like, at like a work event, for example, there's more of an assumption that you don't work. So I would be going to, like, a networking event and I'd be like, oh, what do you do? What do you do? What do you do? Pointing at all the men. And then they would just skip the women completely. Stuff like that.
[00:50:21] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. And I think I've heard things in terms of more like context sports. So like rugby, for example, like in the uk, is that girls have been allowed to join in with rugby on the boys team until a certain age. And then when you get to a certain age, it's probably like around 12, 14 ish. I guess they're like, this is now too dangerous for you. You're the only girl on the team. You're not allowed to play with us anymore. And there's no girls team for them to go to. Yeah, they just spend up playing that sport.
[00:50:52] Speaker A: That's so sad. Yeah. Laura and I are both getting a cold. It always happens at the same time. Even though we like, oh my God, we hardly ever see each other in person, but we're always sick at the same time.
[00:51:03] Speaker B: What is this? It's a cycle.
[00:51:04] Speaker A: I know, right?
Yeah. And it's really sad because imagine dedicating so many years and part of your identity to a certain sport and falling in love with it and then you're just told you can't play anymore just because everyone else is growing differently, which is, you know what, it's fair, you want to protect people. But at the same time, this is why we want, like, if you focus on that more community level, they should be forming a girls team so that there's not that individual loss.
So.
So we thought we would maybe talk about a few ways you can maybe kind of integrate this in your own life. Because you're probably like, why are you telling us about something that they use at a policy level? But honestly, it's really a really useful tool to kind of like identify different areas in your life that might be a barrier or creating barriers or might be facilitating, you know, physical or mental health or accomplishing your goals and stuff like that.
So at that individual level, that might be where we have the most control. And it's like almost tempting to only focus there, but it's definitely something you should address. So like we've said a lot reflection. So assess your own beliefs, your habits, your knowledge, maybe try and become self aware of maybe what you don't know because that's important as well.
So for example, you know, we're going to do an episode on New Year's resolutions and setting goals. But if you're talking about like wanting to eat more nutritional foods so like healthier foods, integrate some more nutrients into your diet, then you need a better understanding of your own eating habits and what you are consuming and broader nutritional knowledge. That's just an example. Set some goals, build skills, build knowledge. And so that's at that individual level. Do you have any thoughts about that, Laura?
[00:52:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I was kind of thinking, and this might link in a little bit to other levels, but I was kind of thinking about being aware of your own kind of biases and stereotypes that might influence the way that you think.
Because I think the more that we understand on a societal level, I suppose, which we're going to come to later, but on that level what is influencing us on an individual level it can be quite surprising, almost the assumptions that we are also making based on gender or race and culture and so on I think that can be something interesting to reflect on.
[00:53:31] Speaker A: I think that's a really good idea and it's one of the reasons that we wanted to talk about the model. Is it such a good like almost just like thing to if you draw it out on a piece of paper and use it to reflect on your different views on things because you don't know until you know. We're so unaware of so much that goes on in our decision making in our heads. So I definitely think having a reflection on how various levels of this model, especially maybe that social like stereotype level impacts you is really important in a lot of the stuff that we talk about. Whether that's mental health, psych safety, when we eventually get to goal setting. So yeah, love that.
Then we extend out to that interpersonal level. So you can kind of understand how to. If you use this to like leverage support from your relationship. So whether this be in like a maybe goal oriented way at work or actually what we were talking about last week with social well being. So I want to get more meaning out of my social relationships. There's so many things you can do. So whether that's seeking social support and surrounding yourself with people that encourage you and support you and your goals and aren't acting or like speaking in ways that are really contrary to your physical or mental health, things like that, engaging activities with these people and also conversely try to be that positive influence on other people as well. So it's not just I want to to you know, gain a lot from you. It's you know, again back to that kind of more community driven, reciprocal we all care about each other kind of vibes of being a positive influence on friends and family. Share your own healthy habits and help them with their own goals. And so I think that's a great way to use that interpersonal level is really maybe work on that social wellbeing piece that we talked about last week. Yeah. Do you have any thoughts about that?
[00:55:30] Speaker B: Do I have any thoughts? I was thinking. So I was thinking about was me and my sister have been trying to like, like go to the gym more or get up earlier. And so for about a week we were trying to.
What's the word? It has a word. Be accountable.
[00:55:46] Speaker A: Right.
[00:55:47] Speaker B: And like messaging each other if we'd gone or not. But it lasted for like a week and then we, we stopped doing it. But I mean that can be something good doers to kind of share what you're doing with other people kind of keeping you accountable. But sometimes I find that it's it can be difficult because then I'm like, if I haven't shared then I feel bad or if I haven't done it, then I feel bad about it. So I think it's, it's like a careful balance. You know, I think there is a certain amount of flexibility that we need with ourselves and the goals that we set.
[00:56:15] Speaker A: Well, I think that that example is perfect about how the levels are so linked. So you had this interpersonal kind of, you know, goal together and you set kind of structure around it. We're going to keep each other accountable. But then that interacts with your own personal psychology. So around like your thoughts on your relationship and how you and your guilt about doing something or not doing things, like things that really heavily influence how you behave will impact these interpersonal relationships. So. Yeah, and I'm assuming that broader, like whether it's organizational, like work stuff also, you know, puts a stress on that communication aspect because if you're constantly doing emails and sending messages, that extra not burden, but it's an extra task to do, isn't it? To like send somebody a text message that you've actually done the thing that you were doing. So that impacts it as well. Yeah.
And so at that organizational level, you know, we talk a lot about that workplace wellness factor, whether that's mental or physical.
If you have the capacity to encourage wellness programs in the workplace, then do it again. That puts a lot of pressure on you as a person.
But do use the resources that you do have. I mean so many workplaces, a lot of it's kind of like empty. Like we're going to chuck you like a, I don't know, like one healthy meal a week. We're going to give the whole office or something like that. Like that really only goes so far. But if you do have resources from your organization or company or whatever, use them.
Whether that's like gyms or counseling services, education courses and things like that.
And it's hard. It depends on where you are in the organization. If you're somebody who's just working there and you get to clock in and clock out, use what you can and then try and leave it at the door. Whereas if you're in charge of designing, these organizations really have like reflect on how your policies encourage people to feel better physically and mentally. So like if we go back to sexism, sexism is really bad for well being real bad. Even just witnessing sexism, even if you're a man, detracts from your well being. So if you have gendered policies in place and you have the power to change them, then maybe do that.
So then at that broader community level. So it's just that kind of. I almost think of this as a social wellbeing piece as well. So just getting involved and creating a supportive community environment, again foster your social connections. And then this is the tricky one I think for a lot of people right now is that last level, the policy and societal level. I think it's a really tiring thing to be involved in right now. And maybe not everyone has the capacity to be involved, involved. So the best thing you can do if you can't get involved is to stay informed. So I would say stay informed and advocate for change. But you know, we're humans, we can't always do everything.
So if you can stay informed on the policies going on, so understand local and national policies that impact you. If you can advocate for change, whether this is online or actually participating in some local things and raising awareness.
But overall I think it's like a scary prospect to get involved in this, which I totally get because it can be quite draining. But overall I think if you are considering all these different levels and reflecting on it, like Laura says, you can really identify the barriers. And also we're not just talking about identifying barriers. I have a massive problem with only focusing on the negative. We also want to focus on the supports for you know, your, you know that, that help you be, whether that's mentally or physically happy, healthy, having a good life, accomplishing your goals. So when you can create this supportive environment while working on yourself, you know, you'll be better off. So that's my little, my little ideas for everyone finished. So I don't know if you want to chuck anything in Laura.
[01:00:46] Speaker B: Yeah, well I guess what I'll do, well maybe give you guys kind of like a question to reflect on based on this and then share perhaps what I'm thinking about addressing. But I'm still kind of trying to think about my mind after you've been speaking.
But yeah, question I think for us all to go away and reflect on based on this is to consider which part of the model you can address in order to benefit your physical or mental well being. So is it more on that individual level, interpersonal level, you know, policy level?
And I think for me I'm not really sure where this actually goes Krista, but you can kind of tell me. But I think for me maybe it's more on this individual level. I think it kind of links into what we were talking about last time around. This idea of like purpose. And I think I've kind of been reflecting on actually I struggle to really know what my like longer term purposes and can get quite like disheartened by that. So I think for me it's more maybe it's kind of a bit of a goal related thing, but thinking more about meaning, I think rather than sometimes with purpose. Right. I can get a little bit frustrated because I'm like, I am just a tiny little blob on the earth. Like I'm going to make absolutely no difference to anything at all. Like in a grand scheme of things. And I can get maybe a little bit cynical about it. But I think switching it to a narrative of how do I help myself live like a meaningful life, I think that can help. So I think for me it's maybe focusing a bit on this individual level to start with and reflecting on what is meaningful.
How do I live a meaningful life. But perhaps that then filters into these other levels.
But I think that's where I'm going to start. I rambled.
[01:02:36] Speaker A: Well, no, no, I love that because you are right because you can say maybe draw out all the circles and just write down like meaning at the top of your reflection and then just start brainstorming kind of stream of consciousness where what that would look like. And I really love your reframing because guys, words are so important. They really trigger certain thoughts and emotions and understandings in our brain without us even realizing. So a word like purpose and meaning, while they might have very similar definitions, they definitely in me as well trigger like almost like the purpose. Almost like triggers like a panic.
[01:03:18] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:03:19] Speaker A: What's my purpose? Why am I here? Why? What's the purpose of life? And I would do the same. That would make me feel like, well, what, you know, I'm like, I'm a blob like you said. I was like.
And so like I can't have this broader impact now. If we can, that would be awesome. But if we look at meaning, then my meaning is like just there's a lot of meaning I can apply to my life, whether that's through work or through interpersonal relationships. Like, think about what you mean just to your dog alone. Like you are everything. That's it. And I say that like should make you feel really good. And it's like just like you can kind of break it down into like smaller things instead of like this grandiose set of purpose.
[01:04:04] Speaker B: Yes, totally. And I think that's what I can get caught up in sometimes. And it maybe it's kind of around the societal level. It's like getting caught in that societal level, like big change stuff. Whereas actually let's kind of start like at that more of that individual and kind of interpersonal level. Like what are the areas that we do have kind of a direct impact on and then sort of seeing how that like filters out.
[01:04:29] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it just gives you that sense of more control and you know, from that perspective of Laura's favorite expertise, self determination theory, that autonomy and control over your own life is so important to your functioning and feeling that you're living the life you want to and your mental health. So I think kind of like we touched on it last week in our mental health episode is find it. This helps you gain some control through self awareness essentially. And that's kind of our goal a lot of the time is helping people get that. I mean my, my thing that of the. Where I'm going to use on the model to benefit my, my well being is so much less like intense and like less cool than yours. I just thought at that inter, at that interpersonal level I'm going to stop saying yes so much to stuff. And I think that's going to have a significant impact on my mental health and well being and also probably my physical well being because I'll have more time to like, you know, get to the gym. Maybe instead of three, I can go four days a week. I can focus more on meals and stuff like that. So yeah, 100%.
[01:05:40] Speaker B: I think there's such an important part, isn't it? It's like for me it's just time. Like I feel like could have anything. I just need a bit more time. And that means cutting stuff out.
[01:05:51] Speaker A: It's the most finite resource time. It really stresses me out actually to think about. I'm not going to go down that rabbit hole right now.
[01:05:59] Speaker B: I know someone messaged me the other day because we're trying to finish this research. I think I've been working on this research paper for about three years and it's kind of stuck with me at the moment. But someone from the team messaged me and was like, hey, let me know if you need anything. And I was like, time. Just give me more time.
[01:06:13] Speaker A: More time, please. Yeah, you can do it. And Laura's terrible for this. Every time she takes a break she's like, don't worry, I'll get to XYZ paper while I'm off from work. And I'm like, Laura, oh my God. No you're not. If you do a. I never do it.
[01:06:26] Speaker B: Anyway, I never get to it anyway. But then I'm thinking about it and then I feel guilty because I'm like, I said I would do that and I didn't. So it's also less promising stuff. It's. I think that's something I'm trying to get better at, is not being like, oh, yeah, I'll do it now. Because then I get to the next day and I'm like, oh, crap, I haven't done that yet. Well, pressure on myself.
[01:06:47] Speaker A: And then there's that guilt reaction. And that ties into your example about, obviously you and your sister. And if you don't do it or you forget to text, then you feel guilty and then you might be less likely to go to the gym and engage in the whole process and then you just stop doing it.
[01:07:00] Speaker B: Yeah. So guilt and shame.
[01:07:02] Speaker A: Guilt and shame. We need. We need to be Brene Browned.
[01:07:07] Speaker B: That's what we need.
[01:07:08] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:07:09] Speaker B: Yes.
[01:07:10] Speaker A: Oh, gosh. Okay, well, I guess we're over by, I don't know, like eight to 10 minutes right now, because we accidentally rambled at the very beginning, didn't we?
So I guess maybe I will just tie things off. Unless there's anything else you want to contribute other than our crushing guilt and shame.
[01:07:29] Speaker B: No, I'll finish with my crushing guilt. That's fine.
[01:07:32] Speaker A: Great. Okay, thanks everyone for listening. As usual, we probably have more questions than answers, but we enjoyed exploring the socio ecological model with you guys on today's episode.
We would love to hear if this left you with any questions. Please, like, comment and let us know because we want to answer and we also want to know if you have any topics that you'd like us to explore.
Feel free to get in touch. Be sure to, like, follow, engage however your platform allows, and tell your friends you can find us on various social media platforms. The link is in the bio of our but why Instagram page and I'll also stick it in the story description.
And remember, the first step to understanding is asking but why?
[01:08:18] Speaker B: Yay.
[01:08:19] Speaker A: Okay, bye.
[01:08:21] Speaker B: Bye.
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