Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:16] Speaker B: Welcome to but why Real Talk on Messy Minds and Messier Systems, the podcast where two psychologists overanalyze everything so you don't have to here to unpack the weird, the worrying and the wildly unjust with just enough existential dread to keep it interesting. I'm Dr. Kristen.
[00:00:31] Speaker A: And I'm Dr. Laura. And let's dive into the mess.
[00:00:34] Speaker B: Let's do it.
[00:00:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, shall we. Before we do that, should we update on things?
[00:00:39] Speaker B: I was just gonna say how cool it was having Jess on last week, how much fun that was. I mean, for us. It was a month ago, but because I just got to edit the podcast that she was on, it reminded me of how much fun we had.
[00:00:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:00:54] Speaker B: And how much you were alarmed by so much of the stuff going on.
[00:00:58] Speaker A: In the US So alarmed. So it's scary. And I think I am. Well, yeah, I'm pretty sheltered from a lot of what goes on, like, I suppose being in the uk, but then also not getting a lot of that stuff on my social media feed.
So it is. Yeah, it's eye opening.
[00:01:20] Speaker B: Yeah. If you guys haven't watched or listened to that episode yet, I want to remind you guys that we are doing series now. So that was part one of three and this is part two. So if you haven't caught that, number one, watch it because it's informative for this. But number two, just watch it because it was a really fun, cool episode with a really cool guest.
[00:01:37] Speaker A: And go follow Jess as well.
[00:01:39] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:01:40] Speaker A: He posts such cool stuff. I'm like, yeah, I'm learning so much.
[00:01:45] Speaker B: She does a great job with the sociological nuance, which is just really cool. So, yeah, definitely go give Jess a follow. And we really appreciate her coming on. So I definitely. I just wanted to say that for us, because what re editing and rewatching the episode just made me. I was laughing the whole time, even though a lot of. A lot of the stuff was just really serious, but I was just laughing at. Firstly, your facial expression.
Yeah. Are gold.
And then also just like. Yeah. The amount of information people have nowadays about what's going on and just being able to, like, go back and forth on it. And then it was making me annoyed because we do have all this information about what's going on, but we don't know what to do about it. So just like, going in this circle.
[00:02:29] Speaker A: Of, like, a roller coaster of emotions.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It'll be fun to continue that conversation today, though, so. Well, should we tell people what we're doing?
[00:02:44] Speaker B: Yeah, let's do it.
[00:02:45] Speaker A: I Guess then, for part two. So for this episode, we're going to be talking about wellness, language and discipline disguised as empowerment.
So as a recap, I suppose, for part one. So if you've gone away, listen, then come back again. Hello again. But so, recap for part one with Jess. So we spoke about how women get pulled into the pipeline, which is often through fear. Fear, uncertainty, and, like, aesthetics of safety.
So today, what we're going to be focusing on, we're going to zoom in a bit more to how that pipeline starts to tighten its grip. And not necessarily through violence or hate, but through this softness and this discipline and empowerment.
[00:03:31] Speaker B: It reminds me a lot of what we talk about a lot, ambivalent sexism theory, where it's. There's that hostile element and there's that benevolent element. And I won't rehash it because we do talk about it in the last episode.
But you'll be able to see the reflections of. Okay, well, if you're fitting within that role of the benevolent woman, you're protected by society. And also, only some people can truly benefit and are more protected by that because of their identity, whether that's their skin color, whether that's their, you know, neurotype, whether that's, you know, their ethnicity, anything like that. So that's where we're going today. The fun part for me is doing these things where this isn't on Laura's algorithm in any way, shape or form.
[00:04:14] Speaker A: Like, literally. No. Like, oh, yeah. Because of course. Yeah. At the end of the last episode, we were like, you know, go away and see if you can find anything on your algorithm. And I was like, yes, I'm gonna do this. And I was, like, actually slightly afraid because I was like, if I look for this stuff, am I then going to get more of this stuff? And actually, I don't want that stuff anyways. But I don't really think I ended up finding much at all, should I say? I found one thing which I thought might be loosely linked.
[00:04:41] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:04:42] Speaker A: But I'm not totally sure. Okay. So it's basically. Oh, but it is this.
It's.
[00:04:48] Speaker B: I'll overlay it on.
[00:04:49] Speaker A: Oh, thanks.
[00:04:50] Speaker B: Okay, so I'm gonna. I'm gonna watch it. Me going for our audio listeners, not so useful.
[00:04:57] Speaker A: Yeah, well, for audio listeners, I will describe it. This is a very. It's a. I don't know of natural tones. It's image of a woman lying down in some moss and being covered by said moss. And it says, no more girl bossing. I want to go Rest, go sleep, girl. Lay down on the forest floor and be absorbed by nature. I want to go moss.
And I thought, that's nice. I was like, I definitely want to do that.
[00:05:23] Speaker B: I would like to be masked.
[00:05:24] Speaker A: But then I was like, wait, is it trying to make me not girl boss anymore? And I started thinking about the episode and. Yeah, I wanted to know what you thought.
[00:05:33] Speaker B: Well, what. What conclusion did you come to?
[00:05:36] Speaker A: That it's fine, I think.
[00:05:39] Speaker B: So this. It's really interesting that you sent this because I have like, a version of this that's problematic. Right. So I. That's. That's what I brought to evidence, Kind of like what we're talking about today, to give you an example.
[00:05:55] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:05:56] Speaker B: I don't necessarily think this is problematic because it's. It's literally not giving you, like, this is the only way to be.
It's not actually reinforcing anything. That is like an unnatural, benevolent woman kind of thing.
[00:06:11] Speaker A: Now, it doesn't tick all those boxes that we laid out last episode. Like, it's not.
What was it? I guess the morality kind of side of things or the universal truth side of things. It's not like that stuff.
[00:06:27] Speaker B: And there's no binary. There's no, like, you should be doing this. It's just somebody saying, I want to do this. I want to rest.
[00:06:33] Speaker A: I want to rest.
[00:06:34] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Now the. I do have, like, a issue with things like girl boss instead of just like boss. And like, what is girl rest is just rest.
You know what I mean? Yeah.
Like, but because we. We live in this system where we do have these binaries and everything like that, I just think, like, if you were just saying, like, it basically, it's no more hustle culture. I just want to rest and sleep and be absorbed into nature. That's really what it's saying. So the only thing.
Yeah, same, same. And. And that's like a very human thing, but the thing is.
So that. That itself is harmless. But some things like that, if you interact with that too much, you'll start getting probably maybe further down, whether that's like the divine femininity or soft femininity, like, where you're supposed to be. Because divine femininity and like, some of the even more witchy vibes that aren't proper witchy are very grounded in, like, we just. It's just like the woman thing is to be in nature. Women are synced with nature. Well, no, we're humans. All of us are technically synced with nature. Do you know what I mean?
[00:07:46] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It could get to that point.
[00:07:49] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:07:49] Speaker A: This is more just like, girl's tired.
Yeah. Let me. Let me sleep.
[00:07:56] Speaker B: Let me become moss. That's all I want.
[00:07:58] Speaker A: Exactly. What. What was your more. Did you say you had a more problematic version you wanted to share? I will.
[00:08:04] Speaker B: I'll show it when I start describing some stuff.
[00:08:09] Speaker A: Okay, cool, Go for it.
[00:08:11] Speaker B: But first, I feel like it's the responsible thing to talk about something that's happened recently. And you've probably not been as ingrained as it. In it as I have.
[00:08:21] Speaker A: I've surprisingly seen a lot, but I bet nothing more than you.
[00:08:27] Speaker B: More than you've wanted to, I'm sure.
[00:08:29] Speaker A: Maybe.
But I also think it's. I also think it is, like, interest, you know, interesting.
Like, I'm curious about it.
[00:08:40] Speaker B: And what we're talking about right now is the, like, assassination of Charlie Kirk. And I just feel like we need to briefly talk about the situation because it's getting very convoluted out there. Because the normal thing to do in moments like this, whether you agree with the person or not, is allow a period of, like, okay, let's. Let's stay back from who the person was and let people mourn and kind of almost have that immediate emotional reaction that people are allowed to have as long as they're not harming people. But it became immediately politicized.
[00:09:14] Speaker A: And.
[00:09:14] Speaker B: And so people like me have had to come in with facts and figures and receipts. And so people with a massive following online and news reporters and things like that have had to come in to provide context.
And so this whole spiral has really shown us how quickly, like, language can be used as a weapon, which is kind of what we're talking about today. Because they're using the situation, the broader system and government to control the narrative rather than engage with truth in any new, like, nuanced way or to unite people, because we used to be proud of as a country in the US when it, like, something that can be perceived as a tragedy happens, people come closer together, right? And that is just gone.
[00:09:58] Speaker A: This is completely torn.
[00:10:01] Speaker B: It's gone.
[00:10:02] Speaker A: And I think what I find interesting from, like, what I've seen on my social media is even, like, you know, people sharing things like, you know, don't follow me or unfollow me if, like, you are celebrating, like, the death of Charlie Kirk and things like this, and people being outspoken about it who maybe weren't previously, or people who I wouldn't even like. Just people you don't like, I wouldn't think about in a political Sense, Right. Do you know what I mean? Like your content, like Jess content, for example, I think, oh yeah, they're going to post political stuff. Even people I would not link to that at all started speaking out. Does that make sense?
[00:10:40] Speaker B: Yeah, it, like it bothers me to see the people that are suddenly speaking out when they've not bothered to speak out about any kind of gun violence in any way with any of the stuff that's been. There was a, there's a shooting that same day in my home state in Colorado and children died. And like that got completely swallowed by the Charlie Kirk situation.
There were political assassinations earlier this summer that you might not even be aware of because our president couldn't even be bothered to call the governor about it, like literally. And one of the reasons for this is Charlie Kirk kind of built a brand off of strategic victimhood. He like, he likes, likes to switch accountability into victimhood and persecution. So for example, like if he was trying to be, if somebody was trying to hold him accountable for a racist remark, he would then say, well, that's not free speech that I'm a victim of. You oppressing my free speech. And the reaction to this and particular especially for any perceived critique of his ideology was super immediate, super performative and super vicious. And the weird thing I noticed is I on purpose, I critiqued him a lot while he was alive. I know who he is, right? And people who follow me know who he is on purpose. When this all happened, my focus on my social media switched to the systemic response. Now I've also felt like I needed to be responsible and say I'm not. Like we do nuance here, right? We can say that, you know, he was an authoritarian figure.
But also murder's wrong and this systemic response to it through our government is terrifying, right? We can see what they're doing and.
[00:12:23] Speaker A: What people, what is, what are we seeing them do?
[00:12:26] Speaker B: Oh my God, it's. They're blaming. They're basically inciting violence against the left and heavy quotes, because I don't think they even know what the left is. The vice president on air.
Well, firstly he took over his podcast, Charlie Kirk's podcast, for that, for the day or whatever. He literally told people to dox so called the employers or share the information of people who were celebrating in heavy quotes his death. And their version of celebrating is literally half the time just quoting Charlie Kirk.
[00:12:56] Speaker A: And so this is something I was, I was wondering as well, because I don't think I've seen anyone celebrating and like cheering and being like, yes, Come on. You know, I haven't seen that at all. I've seen people take, like, say that more nuanced view, but not. And the truthful. Arguably you. Yeah, but I would not label any of that celebration.
[00:13:19] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, the Internet is a big place. There's always going to be people who might not have the best takes or, you know, whatever it is who are celebrating someone's death. It's just people just like, if you get a Internet with millions of people on it, that's going to happen. But it's very easy to see that that's not the general reaction of the left in heavy quotes. And a big difference is the leaders on the left versus the right. So the people with the biggest followings. The left has been responsible, saying, I condemn violence. This is not good, blah, blah, blah. And the right has said, this is the radical left doing violence and, like, sending out lie after lie after lie.
[00:14:02] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:14:02] Speaker B: And so I don't really want to. I don't want to spend any more time talking about him or the situation. I just thought we should mention it because it's a relevant thing on the talk, on the, on the podcast and in our culture right now. And I just wanted to basically say, like, we're not going to talk about him, but we're going to talk about, like, what the situation reveals about where we are right now in this moment, about the systems that we're living in in regards to this episode, how language is deployed to consolidate power and silence our own dissent and reframe compliance as a virtue, which you'll see echoed throughout, you know, this whole episode, because that's what the US Government is trying to do right now. And if you want more nuanced take on it, just have a look at my Instagram. Because that's not the point of this podcast. We're trying to dig into some. Some fun topics, unless you want to talk about it more.
[00:14:55] Speaker A: But is this fun?
[00:14:57] Speaker B: Serious fun?
It's legitimately terrified of the fallout of this because it's giving, you know, 1930s Germany when, you know, they. They used martyrs to clamp down on rights, blame certain groups and things like that. So be careful out there, guys. Be careful about what media you're consuming, which is why we're doing these episodes right now, and try to approach stuff with nuance, because today's episode is about how that kind of manipulations happen super quietly and softly and, you know, people Pinterest boards and Instagram captions and TikTok sounds and like these online coaching programs and specifically how TikTok sounds.
[00:15:41] Speaker A: What are TikTok sounds?
[00:15:42] Speaker B: Oh, Laura, what is it? There's always like a trending sound on TikTok.
And so you'll hear one when I share like the video thingy that I have. But there's ones that are like very soft and then there's ones that they're. Yeah, it's. People use. Are incentivized to use trending sounds because they'll get more views. They could maybe make money or go viral, stuff like that.
[00:16:06] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:16:06] Speaker B: And these are actually I just learned this because I got invited to do it. Incentivized. If you have certain amount of followers on TikTok for you to plug these sounds, so they want you to pay you to put it on your profile. So it's all being driven by TikTok and the algorithm. And that's like.
[00:16:24] Speaker A: And that's problematic.
[00:16:26] Speaker B: Well, it can be like, if you look back at our episode with Jess and Oliver and Pete even, we were talking about the problematic role of capitalism in these kind of like right wing, right wing pipelines, which is a whole other tangent. But I think we're going to talk about now how women are being pulled into these systems of control, but they really often feel like empowerment and care and healing because the language always feels super gentle. It's kind of the opposite of the alt right pipeline for men. But either way the message is super clear. Right, okay. So it's stay in line, don't question the rules and perform your role.
So I think a key way to look at this is thinking about the society we live in, which is white supremacy and patriarchy, which are very hierarchical. And there's a protection in certain places within that hierarchy. And so if you're not from that preferred group, you're going to naturally be socialized to fight for the top place. You can get in that patriarchy, in that white supremacy in that hierarchy. So that's what this is all about. And a lot of this is done by language because that's what our brains are evolved for. Right. It's language. That's how we communicate. That's how we think. Language is one of the most powerful tools that authoritarianism has, especially when it mimics things like therapy or feminism or empowerment, because it feels subtle. I'm not going to go super psychosocial theory based for this whole thing, but the things I want you to keep in mind as well are three different theories that will. You'll see trickling throughout. So what I hark on about a lot, neoliberal, neoliberalism and so this tends to reframe systemic harm as personal failure. Right. So then they're going to sell you solutions through self discipline and then you'll notice it doesn't do shit. Then you have a Foucault's theory of disciplinary power where surveillance from that system becomes internalized and we enforce our own oppression or self discipline and things like that.
And then we have epistemic closure, which is language that relieves uncertainty by offering moral clarity. Or we call that moralizing. We talked about that last episode. So you'll look out for the things like high value, divine, feminine things like that. And it just kind of shortcuts your, your critical thinking so that hopefully will help you contextualize everything we're talking about.
But first, before we dig into everything, I want to share to Laura this post. I had it up but tis gone in my saved and this one is titled how to enter your feminine soft girl era.
[00:19:18] Speaker A: Oh, fabulous.
[00:19:20] Speaker B: Fabulous.
So the general vibe of a lot of this content that we're talking about, the kind of the stuff targeted towards women is pastel wellness, soft spoken coaches, quiet homemaking, like the clean girl aesthetic. And it works because it's calm, it's soothing, there's a lot of order and especially to women who feel overwhelmed.
[00:19:43] Speaker A: How to enter your soft girl era. Okay, okay, so slow down. I like, I kind of like it until. Well, not like it, but I'm like, oh yeah, that's kind of nice. Until it gets to the how they're speaking. So the third, third or fourth image. So speak softer, but mean it. Feminine energy isn't loud, it's magnetic.
[00:20:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:07] Speaker A: Don't overshare or over explain. Let your softness be, be powerful.
Like yeah, but the stuff before that, I don't mind it because it's kind like you say it's, that's more the self care stuff. So like slow down, don't stop rushing. Like live in the pause. Like I don't mind that that stuff.
[00:20:26] Speaker B: But doesn reflect a certain amount of privilege 100%.
[00:20:30] Speaker A: Like who has time to do that?
I think I tried to stop rushing for like two days once and it really just didn't. Didn't work.
[00:20:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I think this is, this is what we were talking about last week is, is how it gets you because some of the stuff that like there's stuff on here that really resonates with people who are living in a giving main character.
[00:20:53] Speaker A: Oh my God.
[00:20:54] Speaker B: Right. But saying like slow down and try feeling again so you know, do droll, drolling Journaling.
[00:21:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:02] Speaker B: Eat your meals without scrolling. That's all great stuff, right?
[00:21:04] Speaker A: Sure. Yeah.
[00:21:05] Speaker B: But then it's about. Then they say, this is not about looking like somebody else. It's about, you know, enhancing you. Fine. But then they tell you how you should look. Yeah, exactly. Then the next line is, well, you know, heavy makeup. You need glowy, clean skin, brushed brows, soft blush, lip balm. Hair that smells good, feels soft, and looks done, but effortless.
[00:21:26] Speaker A: Like, oh, my goodness, I'm so sorry, but that is not gonna happen. Like, really?
Jesus.
[00:21:33] Speaker B: You know, and then it's. Don't overshare over. Explain. So that's like, almost demonizing women in leadership positions without doing that. Do you know what I mean?
[00:21:40] Speaker A: Yes. That bit gets me. Yeah.
[00:21:42] Speaker B: The bit about asking questions. Great. Listen. More is great.
But it's almost saying, like, don't speak.
[00:21:51] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:51] Speaker B: Quiet. So you can just kind of see how this content has a lot of harmless but a lot of harm, harmful stuff in there.
[00:22:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:00] Speaker B: Like, walk slowly.
[00:22:04] Speaker A: Like you say, don't have opinion. Just listen to other people.
[00:22:08] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:08] Speaker A: Like, and when it's like, let your. Let your softness be powerful. That almost like.
[00:22:14] Speaker B: I don't know, it's like benevolent sexism.
[00:22:17] Speaker A: If you look this way and dress in this way, then you're just basically just gonna be a nice object in a conversation. You're not actually gonna be adding anything to it.
[00:22:25] Speaker B: 100%. 100%.
Like, create boundaries. Fantastic. Say no without guilt can be good. That needs more nuance. Your soft girl era will attract chaos if you don't protect it. The hell does that mean?
[00:22:40] Speaker A: And then at the end, looks like, really? AI as well. I don't know if it actually is.
[00:22:45] Speaker B: I think she's just really done her hair up.
[00:22:47] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness.
[00:22:48] Speaker B: And she's like, you're in your pajama.
[00:22:50] Speaker A: Pancakes, but you've got your hair, like, totally done up.
[00:22:54] Speaker B: Just that alone.
Can you see the stove in the background?
[00:22:59] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:00] Speaker B: Is like tens of thousands of dollars.
[00:23:04] Speaker A: Really.
[00:23:05] Speaker B: It's meant to be like this. Oh, I'm doing it all in this, like, rustic, soft grill way. But every single thing that's being shown there is expensive. So you get the general idea, right?
[00:23:15] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:15] Speaker B: And what are your. So we've kind of gone over our thoughts on it. Right. Let's do some personal reflections because we both had our own, like, journeys. Have you ever gotten pulled into something that kind of started with wellness but ended up almost like, in this performative thing?
[00:23:30] Speaker A: Probably maybe not in, like a, you know, like a really bad way, but I, I'm often someone who will, I'll do something or start a certain routine. And then because I've built these rules for myself, I find those rules really hard to break. So for example, I used to like, go to like yoga like twice a week and Pilates like twice a week. And it got to a point where I was like, this is way too, too much because it was like in the evening or like in the morning. I was like, I just want a day where I'm like, not doing anything. And then I was also trying to like play tennis and like spin and things like that. But for some reason I found it really hard to let go of like the yoga part because I was like, well, this is like, good for my, like my, my mental health and things like that.
And found it hard to like break that rule. In a sense.
I did eventually. And now I hardly go. I might go occasionally, but sometimes I will get stuck in like a random rule I've just created for myself and.
[00:24:36] Speaker B: I feel like that links. I mean, a lot of the stuff we're talking about in this episode links to our over optimization episode.
[00:24:42] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:24:42] Speaker B: Where we talk about. It's that neoliberalism thing. Right. So systemic harm becomes a personal responsibility. It's your fault for, you know, stuff like that. So you're like, okay, yoga should help my mental health. But then that's a thing that you have to do and pay for rest also helps your mental health, you know, So I think there's such linked concepts and that's why it's so easy to slip into these pipelines. But thankfully, coming from a point of view where you were able to acknowledge that and go, nah, yeah. You know, was there any guilt from coming away from it?
[00:25:15] Speaker A: Yeah, sometimes I feel guilt.
Sometimes I still think, oh, like, do have the instructors thought, where, where is she? Or why didn't she come anymore? But then when I do go, it's not like they, they're not like, oh, you haven't been here in ages. They're just like welcoming and like, just the same as always. So that kind of helped me to feel less like guilty about it. But it's kind of like I feel like the example I've given it that's almost, I don't know, more of like a basic, say, healthcare wellness decision you're making or trying to find a balance. Like, I feel I'm always trying to find a balance with things, but it's more that ongoing like self reflection of like what's working for me right now and what Do I need to change or maybe that's not right for this moment in time, but I'll come back to it another time. And I think that is useful to kind of step into and reflect on. Whereas I feel like what we're talking about here is it's more, I don't know, like ominous. It's more like feel insidious. Yeah. Like you're being like pushed down like a certain path and it almost starts in a similar way perhaps. So it is something that, yeah, that sounds good from the outset. That is something that I want to do.
But then it starts to go downhill and it's harder and harder to get out of, I think. Whereas mine is like my example is just like yoga and then I was tired and then I didn't do it anymore.
[00:26:44] Speaker B: Yeah, but that's like such a healthy example of, of like how to do stuff. Do you know what I mean? And I think that's it's a really important thing to share like that is possible, you know what I mean? And also saying like, yeah, I wasn't actually enjoying it, but I wanted to, to enjoy it, you know. And I think one thing like, like we were saying benevolent sexism underlies a lot of this in our paper that we're submitting this month. We kind of recognize that benevolent sexism, and I say this in the last episode, is the more insidious type of sexism because you don't recognize that it's happening and women are more likely to accept it in a really hostile environment. So like if they step out of the zone and they're going to get really hostile behavior. So like nowadays with the red pill movement, women are much more likely to accept benevolent sexism and either not recognize it or go like, well this is all right, this is fine, you know, and rationalize the reasoning behind that. I a hundred percent, as a psychologist who does a lot within social frameworks, see why the current world we're in with the predicted backlash against women that we've talked about will make so many women tempted to go down these benevolent sexist routes when they're feeling stressed or powerless or just in need of some structure and not sure where because the algorithm does what it does.
[00:28:10] Speaker A: Have you got any examples of when you pulled down that?
[00:28:16] Speaker B: Yeah, a little bit. Because for me it was like, it was definitely like a self care need because I was feeling burnt out. I think it was around the time when I was having my autistic burnout, but I didn't know what it was and I like was Starting to really struggle. I've always been into makeup and skin care. I've always thought it was really fun. I just find it really interesting. And I also want to age like a vampire. And that probably won't go away because we live in a patriarchal society.
[00:28:46] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:28:49] Speaker B: But it kind of took a turn when I started to experience this burnout and symptomology of depression. All of a sudden, I was buying all these, like, gadgets, like, laser things and, like, microcurrent things, and looking at all this content about how to be, like. I think there was a lot more softer kind of, like, content that I was going towards because, oh, I would just love to be able to just chill and rest. And I all of a sudden realized, holy shit, I've probably spent, like, 500 bucks in the span of six months on beauty stuff that I don't even really need, and I probably won't use. And, like, I'm like, what the hell am I doing?
And I kind of just snapped out of it, luckily. And I didn't attribute it to anything really, to do with the algorithm or anything like that. But now that I reflect on it, I can see that I was relying on just some sense of, like, normalcy or role fitting, I suppose, that.
I don't know, it was. It's like, a really weird thing to look back on, basically. I think what I think was happening is my. My personal autism mask was slipping, and I was becoming less and less palatable, palatable to people. And then I tried to do it through soft girl ways, so flowy tops, you know, all this kind of stuff. And then something happened, probably the rise of fascism, along with some really good fantasy books and stuff like that. I realized what was going.
And then you recognize if what. What you're thinking is healing requires you to be palatable, then it's not healing. It's just performance.
It's being performative. And so I think the. A lot of this stuff can appear feminist, so. But they're just reproducing the hierarchy that we live in and women being palatable.
[00:30:37] Speaker A: Yeah, that's really interesting. And I. And I think, like, social media does throw so much at us that we should buy. I get all of the face care stuff and all of supplements and everything, and it's like, oh, my God, what am I gonna do? And I think sometimes, as you were speaking, it made me think of the pressures I feel sometimes to buy into a certain product or. I think I saw something today about healthy hot chocolate, which was basically a collagen Hot chocolate Dr. I'm like, oh, my God. I just click past them as fast as I can because I'm like, this is just a load of nonsense. But that, I think, is all part of it. And I think I'm kind of like, you. Like, I love skincare, and I love doing it right.
But I think when there's so much information out there and we don't really know what right is, it can. It can make it really difficult to choose. And I think, as well, because there is this, like.
Yeah. This need, if you like, for women to be, like, youthful that it can put. I think there are a lot of women feeling a lot of pressure to, like, look certain ways, whether that is in terms of what their face looks like or in terms of how skinny they are. There's so much pressure now, which is really, really hard to get away from.
[00:32:01] Speaker B: And a lot of that is structured within the hierarchies we live in. So, like, think about.
We've talked about thinness before being a trend when more conservative, authoritarian kind of powers starts happening, and that all of a sudden, it's a pressure to be thin. It's a pressure to look a certain way. And that's totally different than it was 10 years ago. Ten years ago, it was all about body positivity. Right? We want people who are looking differently. We want people who are different vibes and a bit chaotic. And I think it almost relates to what Jess was saying about, like, people kind of associate that with the cringe. Millennial now is us just, like, not giving a fuck. You know what I mean? And now there's this big backlash. And also, I think Covid was a big issue because that drove a lot of this, that people spent a lot more. Much more. Ugh. Can't speak. Spent much more time online. The algorithm learned a lot. The world was chaotic. And when the world starts to become or feel to a person quite chaotic, order and hierarchy becomes really addictive because it just calms down your emotional and psychological response.
Now, what people don't often question is, okay, what is the order and hierarchy? Whose order are we being asked to follow in these moments? There's some more stuff we should probably dig into.
[00:33:24] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. I could speak about, like, the beauty stuff and the.
[00:33:28] Speaker B: Well, we're gonna do stuff full episode on this, guys. We're gonna have somebody awesome on for that who we both love.
So keep an eye out for that because that's an expert in the beauty field. So we're not gonna say who or when yet, but keep Your eye out. For now we're gonna talk about language that sounds like liberation.
[00:33:48] Speaker A: Woo hoo.
Like go back to beauty. Go back.
[00:33:53] Speaker B: Yeah, let's go back to skincare.
So like I said, language is super important. If you guys haven't watched the TED Talk about the importance of language and how it shapes our brain, it's amazing. But right now we have examples of language like high value woman, divine feminine boss babe, self regulation, which is an annoying therapy term that has been co opted.
[00:34:18] Speaker A: Really?
[00:34:19] Speaker B: Yeah. Embody your femininity, things like that. And like I said, we're in the red pill era, Right?
And so this red pill version of femininity reframes compliance as confidence.
So being agreeable, being attractive and thin and obedient is hold as like a sold as like a high status woman thing. The amount of time I've been called a low value woman online, I'm like, why do you think I give a shit about your value of me? Of course you don't value me.
[00:34:49] Speaker A: I understand that's incorrect. But yeah, oh my goodness.
[00:34:53] Speaker B: I'm like, I'm actually, I have very high standards and I, I think that's why you think I'm a low value woman.
[00:35:00] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.
This is actually a compliment. Yeah.
[00:35:07] Speaker B: Thank you so much.
This empowerment gets reframed as or empowerment in heavy quotes. Right? And it gets reframed as discipline. So this kind of what we talked about, like you're not oppressed, you're just undisciplined. This is what Jordan Peterson uses a lot, Andrew T. Uses a lot. But it's much more quiet in the soft girl era.
Content, like you just have to take space with your softness. It's just that you're not living in your feminine energy energy.
And these messages offer a lot of clarity and really certain times. So that's that epistemic closure that we were talking about.
[00:35:44] Speaker A: What does that mean? Sorry, what does epistemic closure mean?
[00:35:47] Speaker B: It's language that it's moralizing through language. It relieves that uncertainty that you feel through language that makes you feel better.
[00:35:55] Speaker A: Okay. Yes.
[00:35:56] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And then again we are correcting ourselves. We are shrinking ourselves into compliance.
And the thing that I'll say to people in these moments is what does the empowerment look like?
Right. Because empowerment without disruption of the system that you're in is just obedience. But it just looks a bit different. It looks like a boss babe. It looks like a soft girl era.
So I think the thing to think of, like if your solution to anxiety is to be more beautiful or more obedient or more in control, which we probably struggle with. Like a solution to anxiety oftentimes is perceived control, right, Psychologically. But we have to think whose needs are being met here? Is it meeting my needs?
Is it meeting the needs of, you know, a system that we're in?
[00:36:47] Speaker A: I was just thinking a lot about, I was like thinking about the control part, which I just think is interesting because as psychologists and potentially especially as sports psychologists, we're often working with clients who, that's what they want. They want control and need out of everything. That's why, you know, the term like, you know, control the controllables has so like widely stated because we're always working to support people to I suppose accept what, you know, they can't control.
And this sort of movement, if you want to term it, that is kind of saying, well no, don't worry, like we can control everything. Like come over here. And that's really comforting for people because it's really, really difficult to accept the things that we can't control. I find that really difficult. I am a bit of a control freak.
So it's. Yeah, it's like interesting I think in that sense when we think about control and think about our like desire as human beings to, you know, get away from that like uncertainty and the anxiety and be certain about something.
But perhaps, yeah, perhaps that's just short lived.
[00:38:05] Speaker B: I think it's really funny when people call themselves control freaks in the era that we live in because our brains are not evolved to have to control so many things. Our brains are not evolved for the shit show that we live in. And there are so many, many, many factors out of our control that would not normally be, you know, for the environment we were evolved for. So of course a lack of control means that we have anxiety and we're going to think, okay, well if I can control something that'll heal my anxiety, you know what I mean? It's such a normal human response. But unfortunately what can sometimes be adaptive is used to control us in certain situations.
So it's giving us a palatable thing to hold on to. Buy this product. You'll feel like you fit more in this role, you know, become part of this membership online, subscribe to this blah, blah, blah, and it's offering control that doesn't exist. And so I think what we do when we're talking to clients and we say control the controllables, we're talking about real things like do you have your kit? Do you have you talk to your coach? Have you done The X, Y, Z. Whereas what these people or ideas are offering is a fake sense of control because they're not actually gaining control over any tangible thing in their life. They're gaining control over a performance. So I think that's what the difference is from, like, a psychological point of view.
[00:39:38] Speaker A: Effy, I was thinking about how we spoke about. Was it like, off one of our first episodes about that, like, performative identity? And it's again, this, like, reflection on, okay, is this behavior I'm. Or identity I'm performing, is that useful to me or not? Like, who is it serving?
Does it work for me or. Or does it not? And I guess the really tricky bit within that is if we are somewhat being manipulated into, you know, buying certain things or whatever it might be, then we're going to feel like, yes, that does serve me.
And I think that's where it starts to get really sticky, is it's really difficult to have that critical thought around it sometimes when it is being sold as something that is benefiting you and helping you.
So it's really messy.
[00:40:34] Speaker B: I think it's messy especially because no one.
Well, people saw it coming because they are the ones who designed it. But the layperson or the people who don't know stuff about algorithms didn't invent them, don't know how to react to it because we've had no education on it. Do you know what I mean? We've had no.
Like, for example, I think it's Norway. At the very least, I think it's Norway. They're educating children on algorithms. I just felt something by my foot and I'm scared there's another spider.
It's fine. Don't think it was. It was a paper. It was a sticky note. Guys, for context, when I walked into my office this morning, there was this spy. A spider the size of, like, a biscuit or a cookie. It was horrible. Yeah, it was horrific. Anyway, where was I? What was I saying?
Oh, yeah, we don't have any education on it. I think, like I said, Denmark, Norway, Denmark. One of those countries, sorry, guys. Is already educating their children on what to look out for on social media. That's propaganda and stuff like that, but we don't have any of that because our countries are much more capitalized than those countries. America has an inherent fear of its own citizens. We've had no education on what to look out for. Also, because it's happened so quickly, so of course it's going to work on people. It's almost like people calling up your grandpa with Using AI technology to sound like, to sound like my brother saying that he was in a car accident and he needed money. Now most of us wouldn't fall for it, but the technology is kind of beyond that generation at this point. So it's just so hard because we don't even know where this technology is going to go.
So I think give yourself a bit of a break if it works on you. But it's just about learning how to be aware. Because adding that critical thought to it is what will just kind of help separate it from the seeing it to the reaction. You just want to add a space in between.
I want to talk about why this works specifically so well on women, especially white middle class cis, able bodied women. Because like I said, there is safety in hierarchy if you are a privileged member of that hierarchy. And white femininity has always been rewarded when compliant. I've done a few videos on this where I talk about like white feminism. When it started, one of the reasons they kind of mobilized, not all of them, right, but one of the reasons the white feminists started to mobilize was because they thought it was crazy that a black person would be able to vote before them. So we have to be very aware that feminism and femininity are not always the good guys and heavy quotes, right?
So a lot of us have this internalized belief where if I play by the rules, I'll be safe, I'll be loved, I'll be spared. So that's I'll be spread hostile sexism or even worse. Right.
And over the years we've seen this feminine performance as a protection. So softness, thinness, palatability, it's all a survival strategy. We saw that, you know, in the backlash after World War II with the kind of 50s housewife things like that. And we see it in more marginalized groups who even unknowing over time have had to knowingly and unknowingly. I'm not saying not everyone knew. I'm just saying like some people just don't have had to or have chosen to even take on more kind of western white vibe, you know, like straightening your hair, putting on certain kinds of makeup, trying to lose weight if it's not your natural body type, right.
[00:44:23] Speaker A: Have you ever seen the Millionaire Matchmaker?
No, I don't think it is like this most. It's fantastic and horrific at the same time. It's like one of those like early, like naughties, like American TV shows. And this woman, I think she's called Patty or Patty or something and she like, matches millionaires to partners and they do, like, you know, like, mixes and stuff. Anyway, the potential partners, she. Let's say it's someone's looking for, like, a woman as a. As a partner, then Patty would literally be like, you know, your hair is awful. It needs to be straight. There's no worth in you, like, unless your hair is straight. And, like, all of these things and, like, tells them how they should be. But it's very much based around this, like, I don't know what you want to term it, like, feminine ideal or whatever. And it is. It's kind of all of those things that you were just saying that she was putting on to people or suggesting people had to do if they wanted to be successful in a relationship. And it's a really interesting program to watch. I think you can watch it on ITV if you're in the uk. And it's like one of those shows, which is funny, but in a really terrible way once you understand the context and, like, the social systems surrounding it.
And I think what I was also thinking about as you were talking then was I think when we've been talking around this topic, I've been just thinking about, like, social media, I think, and almost like forgetting that it is just all of society. Like, we are constantly being fed all of this. And I think that I feel a lot of those things you were mentioning, like, around, you know, needing to be palatable and obedient and sticking to the rules and all of these things. Like, I feel so much of that, even though I'm not really on, like, social media that much, so.
[00:46:20] Speaker B: Well, that's, that's. That's. It's always going to filter down because the algorithm, it's making stuff happen faster and more noticeably, but it's just reflecting the world we live in, you know, so of course it's going to filter through the media you consume, the ads you see on tv, the way people treat you, you know, you can always tell. And I just want to go back to what you said about the show real quick. Yeah, about. I feel like that's the old school version of what's happening now. I mean, the early 2000s were basically like, now they were like, the vibe was, you needed to be thin, women need to kind of shrink a bit. And that was a backlash to the wave of feminism that had just happened. But the way that the. They. This woman, right, this. The matchmaker, was a woman, told people, women, not everyone, that they needed to be successful in a relationship was to do these things. And they Were all. I'm assuming all the things they had to do were visual, aesthetic, kind of stuff.
[00:47:18] Speaker A: Most.
It was also, I suppose I can't remember off the top of my head, but there are some things in terms of, like, how they were communicating or, you know, some of them aren't like, the worst things.
[00:47:29] Speaker B: You're being too loud. You're being too aggressive.
[00:47:32] Speaker A: Oh, I thought you were talking to me.
I was like, oh, my God, am I being really loud?
I was like, am I shouting into the microphone? But yeah, things like. Like that or things like, you know, you need to, like, some things might seem more positive. So they might say something like, you need to lead with your personality rather than your body. You know, so some of those things aren't like.
[00:47:53] Speaker B: No, that drives me nuts.
[00:47:55] Speaker A: Because that's okay.
[00:47:56] Speaker B: Yes, it is. Because it's like to the women who maybe have a bit more of like a confident walk, you know what I mean? And so, like, lead with like. That's a bit much, maybe personality first. All of this just looks at, like reflects to me, women being told to be objects. Do you know what I mean? So, like, so you need to look and act a certain way to be successful in a relationship. Essentially. No man is going to want you if you're a person. So not ideal.
[00:48:25] Speaker A: It's an interesting program. It's a good case study. I would. Yeah, watch it and take notes and let us know what you think.
[00:48:31] Speaker B: I have enough rage, Laura. I don't know if that's a good idea.
[00:48:35] Speaker A: Okay, that's fair.
[00:48:37] Speaker B: I might try. I might try. But like I said, you know, systems like white patriarchy, well, that's what it is. White supremacy and patriarchy are hierarchical.
And the reason this works so, so well on white women is because especially if you're a white woman who is kind of fits that norm of what a white man might find attractive. You're like, just this close, just this close to power, Right? Just as close enough to the top to believe that, you know, you have some power or that it's worth it. For example, you probably haven't heard of Marjorie Taylor Greene, and I envy you for it. She is a gop, so she's a maga. She's a congressperson in the US and she has been voting and acting against her own best interest for years and years and years. She's literally horrible all of a sudden now that it affects her personally because she's experienced some very overt sexism. She's like, MAGA doesn't respect women.
Okay, well, it hasn't for the last 10 years, but now because it. Because you thought you were this close to power. You thought you, you know, it was worth it for other women to suffer because you were climbing the ranks, but now that it impacts you personally, you're gonna call it out. Sorry, no. So you feel close enough to kind of shape that power, so you submit. And so that's kind of like what the aesthetics do and why it's so easy to target certain types of women with this kind of stuff. It's because you want to be part of that in group. You want to be part of that as well as the, you know, a lot of this stuff is targeted as at the world being crazy. That's true. But as well as the control you get, it's that layer of, where am I in the hierarchy, the power hierarchy, and how, like, how close do I feel to the top? And it's protective to be closer to the top. And it's almost like a way nobody knows that this is happening in their brains. It's all very subconscious. Right. It's not like I must wear this to be closer to the top of the hierarchy. It's all very subconscious. I feel like I just went on for a bit. Do you have any thoughts about that? No. But essentially, whiteness is the invisible standard in heavy quotes because it's visible to a lot of people in this trad wife, girl boss, clean girl space. It's never named, but it's always there. It's always, like, implied. And the acceptable soft life excludes disabled, neurodivergent queer bodies that aren't white.
It's basically purity politics repackaged as wellness. And there's a lot of class privilege like I was talking about. I mean, we could see it in the video that I sent you. So it enables this life to appear effortless. The trad wife who doesn't show the nanny, the girl boss who has generational wealth. I mean, there's this creator called Ballerina Farm who you've never probably heard of. And she was a Juilliard ballerina who quit because her partner asked her to. Had a bunch of kids. They're from generational wealth. And she does all this, like, aspirational and heavy quotes, trad wife content. But they live on a farm with nannies and help and stuff like that. And then it just makes people feel worse and worse. And she's obviously like a very thin, privileged white woman who can.
Can demonstrate this. Right? And the aesthetics aren't just about obedience. They're about money. Whiteness, able bodiedness and thinness. And these scripts disproportionately appeal to these people.
Right.
So especially because these people are taught that complicity means safety and it is.
[00:52:18] Speaker A: Like very white and privileged and so on. But then every now and then they throw in a video of like a really dirty room or like their really dirty oven and like, like trying to like normalize or highlight that it's not perfect all the time.
And though I kind of like that because it obviously like makes me feel better about like my disgusting kitchen or whatever, I'm also like, is that in a sense a way to draw you in more?
Like, do you know what I'm trying to get at? I haven't really thought, but I noticed a lot of that when I don't know, like, you know, people are trying to get away from this perfect aesthetic and then throw in, oh, I've had one bad day. And like, that's gonna like change things. Yeah.
[00:53:07] Speaker B: Because they know that there's going to be a level of like, I don't know what the, the correct word is off the, off the top of my head, but like a negative emotional reaction to seeing somebody with a perfect life all the time. It can be aspirational, right. But every once in a while they throw in like, this is like, this is my everyday. It's not always perfect, you know what I mean? Because our societies have this, especially in America, this idea that even if you're like poor middle class, you're only one good decision from being away being a millionaire. We're all just waiting to be millionaires. And so aspirational content is primed for us because we're like, we could have this if only we tried hard enough.
But then obviously throwing in a bit of relatability keeps you there a little bit. Because you're saying like, oh, okay, so she had to clean her stove and I have to clean my stove. So I'm closer than I think I am. Do you know what I mean?
[00:54:04] Speaker A: Yeah, that's totally, totally it.
[00:54:06] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that's where we kind of think of self shame and other shame. So being shame from whether you like enforcing the shame internally or feeling it from external sources, this is how people get stuck in this.
Shame is a huge thing. If you guys don't listen to Brene Brown. I'm sure anyone who listens to us probably already has listened to all of Bernay Brown's stuff.
But shame is a super powerful psychological mechanism and social mechanism. Once you're inside the system, it keeps you Invested through shame, perceived status and internalized discipline.
And you're told that the only thing that's stopping you from being like safe or desirable is you. Right? So you're not burnt out, you're just being lazy, you're not lonely, you're not feminine enough. Right. Just how the red pill ideology does. Like, oh, it's a male loneliness, it's a male loneliness epidemic. It's not just that we are treating women poorly. It can be like, you're not healing, you're just failing to manifest. God, just start manifesting right? Then you'll heal. Don't go to a doctor. And this is what promotes that loyalty. And it's not to promote healing or any kind of better life. It's just to promote identity groups which benefits the system. Have you ever blamed yourself for not feeling better? Even when you think you're doing everything in heavy quotes, Right?
[00:55:32] Speaker A: Yeah, like all the time.
[00:55:35] Speaker B: Would you care to share?
[00:55:37] Speaker A: I guess, one example? So last week I had a cold and I was, I was like in the depths. No, maybe like day two of the cold when you actually feel kind of bad. And I was like, you know what, I'm gonna feel fine tomorrow. I was like, I've had loads of vitamins, I've like eaten healthily, I've rested, tomorrow I'll be fine. And tomorrow I was not fine, I felt worse.
[00:55:58] Speaker B: And I was like, but I've done.
[00:56:00] Speaker A: Everything I was meant to do. Why do I still feel like this?
[00:56:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I feel that it's like we, I think we also talked about this in our over optimization episode. It's like you're ticking all the wellness boxes. Why isn't it translating to my well being? And I think that's something that is really difficult to do in the societies that we live in.
And that's how these systems like the algorithm and the alt right pipeline for men and women, they get you and it's how they keep you. And I think that that really mirrors neoliberalism and capitalism. Exhaustion becomes just this badge of honor where beauty, being productive, sometimes even being obedient just becomes kind of like a self love thing. And it's just, it's all branding. That's not empowerment, that's branding yourself within something.
So I think that it doesn't feel like you're being radicalized, it feels like order when the world feels out of control, but it just really like relies on your complicity.
And it's just addictive because there is that need to feel safe, seen and in control, but equally that Safety isn't neutral because it's built on performance, it's built on obedience, and it's also built on exclusion, even if you're not aware of that. And so what happens when you start to see through it? That's the question. Because inevitably, even if you're being shamed almost into staying in these systems, the mask is going to start to slip at some point, one way or another.
And so I think that's what we want to cover next time.
[00:57:36] Speaker A: So I suppose as a reflection to end on, I think for me what's been interesting is seeing how some of this obedience and rule setting might show up in my life. And I think I'll often put the blame on those things on myself, like, oh, it's because I'm just that type of person, or I need to have, like you say I'm a control freak, but actually, where is that from? Like, maybe it is from some of these systems that we're living in.
So maybe if you guys kind of reflect on, is there anything in this that kind of resonated with you? Like, do you notice any of this obedience in yourself? And it's not that that obedience is always something that's bad, but can we bring a little bit of awareness to it and start to put that critical lens on, I suppose, our behaviors and like I say, the rules we set or why we do what we do?
[00:58:29] Speaker B: Love that as a reflection. And with that in mind, next week we will be looking at that a little bit more. We're going to dig into the cost of this pipeline. We're going to dig into the shame a little bit more and the, maybe the grief and the backlash of what, when you're in those systems for too long and the complicated, the really complicated work of kind of walking away from that if you choose to.
So with that, thank you guys so much for listening. As always, we probably left you with more questions than answers, but that's kind of the point. We love digging into the messy undercurrents of wellness, language and discipline disguised as empowerment, and how the alt right pipeline for women maintains our presence there. If you have any thoughts, questions, rage, we want to hear it. Drop us a comment, message us, or shout into the void. But tagging us is much more effective and helpful. If there's a topic that you'd like us to dig into next, get in touch. We're always up for a new rabbit hole. And if you liked the episode, don't forget to, like, follow rate, scream about it from the rooftop, whatever your platform allows. And tell your friends you can find all of our links on the but why Instagram page. Head to the bio for everything. And remember, the first step to understanding is asking but Sam.
