Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:16] Speaker B: Welcome to but why Real Talk on Messy Minds and Messier Systems, the podcast where two psychologists overanalyze everything so you don't have to. We're here to unpack the weird, the worrying and the wildly unjust with just enough existential dread to keep it interesting.
[00:00:30] Speaker A: I'm Dr. Kristen and Dr. Laura. Let's dive into the mess. Let's do it. Let's do it. Existential dread and things. Woo.
[00:00:40] Speaker B: Concert state.
[00:00:41] Speaker A: Yeah, great.
Well, I guess. Well, what should I do first? Overview first.
[00:00:47] Speaker B: Yeah, let's do an overview so people know what the heck we're going to.
[00:00:51] Speaker A: Talk about, what is going on. Okay, so today, well, it's part three. So this is the last part of our series around like the alt right pipeline.
So this final episode is kind of like our more actionable, if you like, episode. So what we want to dig into is what happens when this very curated life starts to fray, starts to kind of pull apart at the seams, so to speak.
So we've been talking a lot around like, safety and empowerment that people get from sort of engaging in.
What do we call it, like the.
[00:01:27] Speaker B: Like the alt right pipeline and all.
[00:01:30] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So when people engage in that for the safety, but actually what happens when that stops working? And we mentioned it a little bit last week about like the shame and the grief that comes along with this and actually it ends up being quite almost like an identity collapse when we start to recognize like, actually this isn't what we thought it was in the first place. So we might start asking ourselves, like, if this isn't who I am anymore, then actually who am I? If this. Yeah, if this isn't what I thought it was to start with, then where do I go now? And this is what we might term like an exit phase. And it's really like clean, it's really safe, really easy. But it's definitely something that's necessary if we want to, I suppose, like be living our lives how we, how we want and like to the fullest. So yeah, I think it's like heavy, heavy stuff.
[00:02:27] Speaker B: Heavy. But you know, that's the existential dread part. I think it's, it's, it's tough because this stuff hijacks the evolved part of our brains that seek this kind of sense of belonging and comfort and it hijacks that even though it's all. It's like a sugar addiction. Do you know what I mean? Where it's like we. Sugar in small amounts isn't bad, but if you eat too much sugar, our bodies are designed to want that sugar because it sustains us. Do you know what I mean? It's like if we're in the wild, evolving, and we saw something really sugary that's gonna give us a lot of calories. Right. We live in a world now where there's too much easy access to sugar and so we really have to think about our consumption of it. I think media is the same thing because a lot of it, to make money is hijacking those processes and dopamine relations, sense of belonging. I mean, just looking at the flourishing work at Harvard, which, which basically says that social connection is the number one predictor of long term health and happiness. And I think the algorithm hijacks that need. And then like if that, if you think you're going to be getting that and then all of a sudden you, you just like have that maybe cognitive dissonance or sense of ambivalence where something's not quite right and trying to figure out what it is. That's what we're going to be talking about today is that process.
[00:03:53] Speaker A: And I think it's good to give the link back into social media because I think that is a lot, I suppose, of where we're coming from. Of course it's in other places in society and in life as well. But like you say, the real driving force behind it is social media at the moment. Right. So, yeah. Well, before we dig into it anymore, do we want an update on our lives or what's happening?
[00:04:16] Speaker B: How do we feel? I feel like I have a cold coming on.
I, I messaged Laura earlier today. It's like, oh, should we film today? Because we're releasing the podcast tomorrow, so.
[00:04:25] Speaker A: We probably should do we need to do this?
[00:04:28] Speaker B: And I was like, I don't know if I have the executive function right now to do today.
[00:04:33] Speaker A: Oh my gosh.
I felt like all, all, like last. Not all last, maybe like Monday through Wednesday. Last week I was, I think I was basically in like shut down and it was really, really hard to do anything. Like, I just felt awful. I do think, like, because for both of us starting back up with like the academic year, it's a lot. There's a lot to kind of shift back into. I think after being almost like in your own bubble, like over the summer and then the like university year starts back up and it's like, oh my goodness, there's so many things I need to think about and I find it hard to like process it all into. Transition into like that. Yeah. Seeing lots of people again that's totally.
[00:05:17] Speaker B: Where I think I'm at too, because, like, just waking up and thinking, oh, shoot, I gotta teach tomorrow. And just like thinking, like, I have to see so many people and like, interact with human beings. And I think I was the same last week, like, meltdown, shutdown vibes. It was like I kept forgetting stuff I was supposed to do for work and like, just slower than usual. And I think once we get started it's fine. But it's the lead up sometimes that's worse than the actual starting.
[00:05:46] Speaker A: Totally.
I think next week I think I'll be rolling and like in a bit of a routine.
But yeah, last week. No. Was not a good week for me.
[00:05:59] Speaker B: No, me neither. Me neither. So hopefully last. Oh, we didn't film an episode last week. That's probably a good thing because we were gonna try and film Friday instead.
[00:06:10] Speaker A: It was probably good that we didn't.
[00:06:11] Speaker B: Then it would be a very different episode probably than what we're filming today.
[00:06:16] Speaker A: That's the update for sure. And now, I guess.
[00:06:20] Speaker B: Sorry, no, I. One of one thing that, like, I used to do two, maybe three posts on social media and for the last few weeks I've been doing something pretty much every day because there's.
[00:06:31] Speaker A: You're doing a lot.
[00:06:32] Speaker B: Because there's just non stop news cycle. And I'll like film something educational usually like patriarchy focused or something like that. And then something crazy will happen like the President invading Portland with the National Guard. I'm like, okay, well, I can't not say something about this. So I feel really tired of that. Doing that every day.
[00:06:52] Speaker A: I don't know, I might just take.
[00:06:54] Speaker B: A couple days off. Like, it'll be fine.
Yeah.
[00:06:59] Speaker A: But anyway, the news will still be there.
[00:07:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:07:02] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. It's hard. It's hard when it's something that you care so much about and want to, like you say, keep going out there, but it's just like it never stops, you know?
[00:07:11] Speaker B: And that. But that's the point. That's why they're doing it. Like, they're literally doing it to exhaust you. That is so I'm like, I don't want to be defeated. But anyway, let's move beyond my stress. I don't want to stress anyone out any more than they already are.
[00:07:27] Speaker A: Other stress. Let's go to forms of stress. Well, I suppose. Well, maybe I'll do a little tiny recap on what we've spoken about so far and if you've gone this far into this episode but haven't listened to the Other two, you might want to go listen to them. You probably should give that warning earlier.
[00:07:46] Speaker B: You've got homework.
[00:07:47] Speaker A: But for those of you who maybe want a little recap on what we spoke about in the last two kind of episodes. So in part one, we had Jess on and we were talking about kind of how women get pulled into like this alt right pipeline and aesthetic. And then in part two, we spoke about more on like language and aesthetics and how, you know, how we might be, I guess, controlled or this idea of like submission and almost like to me, almost like giving up, like not trying and feeling like safety or like what we should be doing. And today we're going to be talking about what happens when we actually want to leave this like, system or this, I don't know what you call like, way of being, way of thinking this, like. Yeah, what happens when we want, when we want to leave. And it's not about like those women or, you know, people who we might think, say, get pulled into things like this because that's not, not what we're trying to do. Like we're not singling out. We're more recognizing that actually this is something that we can all be pulled into and that we are all influenced by. And we want to just explore a bit more about how like power works through us and, and explore the question around like, what is actually the cost of us chasing this like, empowerment that was actually never designed to be good.
[00:09:13] Speaker B: For us or to make us.
[00:09:16] Speaker A: I don't know.
[00:09:17] Speaker B: Yeah, curious, you know. Yeah, well, well, yeah, it's, it's designed as, it's framed as an empowerment, but it's designed as free labor and all that kind of stuff. And one thing I, I want to clarify is because we're, do we do nuance here?
We don't do binary thinking like housewife bad, you know, working wife good. That's not what we're saying at all. What people really often misunderstand is when we're saying that these patriarchal roles are oppressive, we're saying that's because there's a lack of choice. Right.
Taking away your choice to decide do you want to be a stay at home mother and wife? Great. But also because we live in a patriarchy, make sure you have some safety rails and everything like that. Do you want to be a working woman and, or however that is. That's great too. And one of the things that the alt right does a great job of is pitting people against each other from like, let's say it's a spectrum that's linear. I'm sure it's more, way more nuanced than that. But pitting those people against each other, trying to say that, oh, feminists don't value stay at home moms, which is the opposite. Feminists fight for stay at home moms every day. But so I just want to clarify that this is about the illusion of choice in the situation. And that's what we're problematizing here because it's framed as empowerment. But really what happens is it's, you know, submission and take the removal of choice and autonomy.
[00:10:49] Speaker A: Mm, totally, totally. It's not like we're trying to say, like you say, if you are like say a stay at home mum or something, then that's a bad thing. Like that's not what we're saying at all. Like, yeah, all power to you. Like that is a great thing to be doing. Then like you say, it's almost just recognizing some of the systems that might influence that and your role within that. And I like how you're talking about almost like, what did you call them? The railings?
[00:11:18] Speaker B: Guardrail.
[00:11:19] Speaker A: Guardrail. The railings, yeah. And I think that's such an important point. It is just about also us having protection kind of for ourselves to make sure that what we're doing is, I guess, kind of safe and sustainable, like in, in a sense like we would with other jobs that we might have. And it makes me think, as you were talking, I don't know what her name is. Sorry. You know, Charlie Kirk's wife.
Yeah. So I saw. I've seen a lot of stuff about her, like obviously online recently and how she is very much like promoting this way of being. Right. This kind of like, you know, women in the home, women not getting education, whatever it might be. And then I've seen other posts which are like talking about what she's saying around like submission and so on, but then they put up next to it like all of her qualifications and like how she's like the CEO. Is she a CEO? I don't know, something.
[00:12:19] Speaker B: She's a CEO. I know she has multiple degrees. She's didn't get married until she was 30.
So all of those things are facilitated by feminism.
She wouldn't have been able to do any of that.
[00:12:32] Speaker A: And I think that's so interesting but also like frustrating because like the hypocrisy of it. Right.
Like what, Again, it just makes me think, like, why is that something that she is promoting when like you say she has been enabled and empowered by like feminism and by. Yeah. Going out and. And being educated and being a leader and being a powerful woman, and then you're telling other women, no, don't do that.
[00:13:02] Speaker B: It's.
It's really frustrating, Susie. And we know the reasons behind it, right? Their whole organization, Turning Point usa, it's to facilitate, leaning further and further right to get to go towards Christian nationalism. And that's how you do it. So it doesn't matter if it's hypocritical.
[00:13:21] Speaker A: But I think I wanted to bring up that as an example of something I've seen, because I think. I don't know, for some people that might be thinking about that nuance in what she's saying there, thinking about getting the context behind her might be something that even starts this mask to slip, right? So to start to kind of see through the cracks, it's like, wait, why are they saying that? But then doing this. There is hypocrisy here. There is whatever is happening here.
And I think they can. Seeing things like that might be an example of these subtle shifts that might happen. So it's not a really dramatic event. You just wake up one day and you're like, oh, wait, this is bullshit. It's like these small things that we might kind of see over time.
And it could just even be by chance that you read something that does challenge your views. So when this kind of, like, we say the mask starts to slip or we start to see kind of what's happening behind the scenes, if you like, so how we're being manipulated by, say, this content, we might start to see how, you know, this idea of, like, clean routines or aesthetics and, you know, productivity checklists or whatever that were meant to be there to, like, make us feel safe and good, actually now just feel, like, pressure.
[00:14:42] Speaker B: I'm just thinking that we gave some.
[00:14:44] Speaker A: Examples of this, like, last week, but it doesn't. It's not necessarily that. It's like this ideological dissonance. It can actually just be, like, feeling burnt out and exhausted and even just, like, dread with aging, with this sort.
[00:14:59] Speaker B: Of lifestyle, because it's a aesthetics and a lifestyle, you always have to do something to fulfill it, right? You still have to keep doing something. You can't just exist as yourself. And you're also not addressing the needs that you think you are, even if it's subconsciously addressing them, the ways that you subconsciously think you are, right? There is not that community. There is just this, like. There might just be like, this, like you said, feeling. Feeling of burnout. And the issue is sometimes people blame Other things they have a hard time reflecting and being reflexive about their own internal experiences. And so they'll blame outside things. So they'll blame work, they'll blame whatever politician they don't like. They'll blame, you know, their partner. They'll blame a number of things before they start to look internally. And we encourage everyone to be really reflexive because looking elsewhere to fulfill that, like when you're burning out to help you recover from that is what causes this whole thing in the first place. So it can be quite a vicious.
[00:16:00] Speaker A: Cycle when you're saying that you almost look for other things to blame, you know, And I think that that is such a normal thing for us all to do, like as humans, like I'll do it. I'll probably look for anything to blame apart from like something that I've done because that can be hard. And I think sometimes it can even be good just to ask yourself the question, like, well actually is there something that I'm, I'm doing or engaging and not putting blame on ourselves like unnecessarily or anything, but almost just to give us like a slightly different perspective on, on a problem. But it can be so difficult if we are just feeling like if we're burning out and we are feeling completely overwhelmed. The last thing we're probably going to be able to do is to reflect on something like logically. And yeah, so it's really hard. I think like you say that's why we do get stuck in these cycles and that can feel so difficult. And yeah, I think, I think like the issue.
[00:16:57] Speaker B: Well, there's a lot of issues, right, but an issue with this, yeah. Is that you get stuck in this cycle of looking elsewhere for solving the problem and then you end up having so much cognitive dissonance and ambivalence and your brain and your body are not matching up. You don't have that synthesis and you know, they are linked and, and your body can often tell that you're stressed more before your brain can because our brain likes to play tricks on us. And a lot of the times like the shifts are subtle, but they can like accumulate in a crash because you're just going and going and going. And then more and more subtle stuff starts happening in your brain, maybe picking up on those clues, but then your body's like no, fuck this, you know what I mean? And so like, like it's at the burnout quite physical experiences, that's what I've seen a lot. Or just complete stress breakdowns almost or like emotional breakdowns.
[00:17:55] Speaker A: And I think this does, I mean there's a lot of difficult parts, I think, to kind of exiting this, but I don't know, like maybe this is actually one of the most difficult points.
So you're burnt out, you're looking for safety. And the one place that you have known or assume there is safety is kind of within this alt right platform or way of thinking.
And so almost like rationally that's where you go back to. And that feels really, really tricky, you.
[00:18:30] Speaker B: Know, especially because this movement teaches you to hate the other.
There's a lot of research behind this, right? People who, the further right you are, the more you hate your out group, whereas the further left you are, the more understanding you are of people who are different than you, right? So that can make it feel like almost like a level of defensiveness to even think about. Not like it's very hierarchical. It teaches you not to question, it teaches you to hate the other. It's designed to keep you there.
And so it's something we're still trying to figure out in political psychology and psychology more broadly in sociology. There's a mass amount of people who have been sucked into this. How the hell do we get them out? What are we offering? What are we offering? Because what we're really offering is harder. Even though there's more benefits to you as a person and society, it takes a little more work.
[00:19:27] Speaker A: I was thinking of, have you ever seen, have you ever seen Pete's dragon?
[00:19:30] Speaker B: I don't think so.
[00:19:31] Speaker A: So there's like an old version of Pete's dragon. There's also a newer version which came out like a few years ago. And it's basically this kid, Pete lives in the woods with his dragon. And Pete's been living in the woods for ages, right? And he loves living with his dragon. Like his dragon is his family. And then obviously because he's like, I don't know, like a 10 year old kid like living in the woods on his own, the police eventually find him and are like, well, you can't live in the woods on your own anymore. Like you need to come and be in society anyway.
[00:20:06] Speaker B: That sucks.
It does.
[00:20:10] Speaker A: His poor dragon was so upset anyway, anyways. But it kind of made me, going back to what we're talking about, it made me think about how, you know, once people are so ingrained in like a certain lifestyle or place of being and they're told, well actually no, that's not the right place for you to be and then you get pulled out of it, you can actually end up feeling so much worse from being outside of that because maybe slightly different in this case of what we're talking about. About.
[00:20:40] Speaker B: You mean there's no dragons involved?
[00:20:42] Speaker A: There's no dragons like very unfortunately but. But you know what I mean, it has to be done so carefully because. Yeah, well that's where the cognitive dissonance comes in. Where the, the I guess trauma. If you like of being pulled out of that group that you've been part of and makes up your identity. Like if you are not ready to make that change, it's like you can't just force people out of it or make them believe that actually what they're doing is like not healthy.
So it's like oh yeah, it's complex I guess is what I'm trying to say.
[00:21:24] Speaker B: It's a tough problem to tackle and I'm really sad about the poor dragon more than anything that's on my mind.
[00:21:32] Speaker A: He's called Elliot.
[00:21:33] Speaker B: I will, I will not be watching that because that has really.
[00:21:36] Speaker A: It's very sad. It was a sad film.
[00:21:39] Speaker B: But it makes me think almost like going back to my like sugar effect and like the dopamine release, like having withdrawals. When you stop having like a sugar heavy diet to like a more healthy diet. I think you would probably experience something similar in terms of like having these certain needs met, like not consuming this content or not engaging with a lifestyle that has given you a false sense of. But safety.
So be like. I would almost compare it to like a psychological withdrawal.
[00:22:12] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, totally.
[00:22:14] Speaker B: That's all I got.
[00:22:14] Speaker A: Maybe it is. You're like, yeah, but you're like feeding in I suppose these little like seeds of information to people. I guess it's partially around kind of education and just opening up like other avenues, other options and it's not forcing people down a certain way but just like having a conversation about it. And I guess. Well, we've spoken a little bit I guess around some of like the psychological and like social framing. So you were kind of talking a bit about like the us and them. So like the social identity theory side of things. So if our group kind of collapses, our group identity collapses. Then we get this. Like there's the loss of belonging. Right. There's the loss of even like say like almost cultural norms like within that group, like language you might use rituals that, that have kind of given you safety.
And I didn't know Kristen, if you wanted to talk as well a bit about like post radicalization and shame.
[00:23:06] Speaker B: I would love to talk about post radicalization shame.
Not a Question that you ask many people.
Would you like to tell me what is it?
So shame is, like we mentioned last episode, a huge driver of human behavior because we are social animals.
Even those of us who aren't the biggest people, people are still driven by feelings like shame because it was used to basically police. That's not the right term. But like to, to make social norms. And so like, if you do something that's outside of social norms, lie or cheat or something like that, and you're small human group, you would be shamed for it. Right. It's our first and it's our main evolved form of social punishment. Right. We didn't need jails, we don't need any of that shame. And we have a huge psychological reaction to shame as a result of it. And so you start with this cognitive dissonance and you're going, something doesn't quite feel right.
And then you're warring, right, with your two sides, like, well, I have all these values that fit within blah, blah, blah. But also it doesn't seem to fit within blah, blah, blah. And there's these two sides, warring cognitive dissidents, et cetera. And then you start to recognize that the thing that you had been involved in for such a long time is bad or just even acknowledging that you're radicalized.
I wouldn't say that everyone involved in these aesthetics things are radicalized in that general sense, but you can still recognize that you were taken down to a movement that necessarily wasn't good for you. Mental health society, things like that. So once you recognize that it causes even more fun cognitive dissonance through your post radicalization shame. So you might feel just like really embarrassed or like angry with yourself or resentful of you or kind of why you might have needed to seek that support, even like feelings of like, disgust. And these are all really, these are all feelings that, like I said, we actively seek to avoid these feelings. It's, that's why it's so hard to come out of these things is because like one, once we actually get that dose of reality, we have to go through these kind of horrible emotions to feeling like eventually acceptance. Right. And that's why, I mean, therapy is important for everyone, even if you're not down like a radical pipeline, you know.
Yeah, there are ways to work through it with a psychologist. Great. But even like talking to your family and friends about it. But like. And it also links to survivor shame. Right. So if your movement is causing harm, which especially you could say may probably the, the men's right Wing alt right pipeline is probably more explicitly harmful with incels and, and all that kind of stuff with, you know, the amount of sexual assault, etc. This realization that you might have been complicit in some kind of harm, even if you didn't recognize it at the time, also might give some shame. So shame's a really powerful tool to use to keep people in situations they might not want to be in.
[00:26:29] Speaker A: It makes me wonder like, obviously this sort of work is kind of really important for us and like. And really important for like, you as well. And I wonder if, like, partially like what we experienced, like, in sport for us was almost like one of those, like, triggers in a way. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, maybe. Maybe talking more about myself, but I remember being like in those systems and seeing things actually I didn't call out, which maybe I should have called out. And like you say then that, that shame around feeling like you're complicit and actually not saying anything until I said something at the very last minute, but then I was like, oh, I should have done something sooner. And I don't know, I think things like that are then, yeah, how you say can make you feel that sort of guilt, but then can also push you into almost like that more like advocacy sort of role and actually trying to.
Yeah. Trying to create change where perhaps once we may have been complicit.
[00:27:32] Speaker B: I think that's a really important point because what you're really talking about there is examining your privilege in any given situation. If you didn't have to speak out, that might mean you have some privilege in that situation.
And the thing about learning more and more about DEI marginalization, opening up who you're reading and what you're talking about and whose experiences you didn't even know you were closed off to, there definitely is that element. Like, shit, I didn't even know that was a thing. I think we've both definitely gone the, the advocacy route, but, like, not everyone's going to be doing that, you know, And I think, I think that's why people get so offended when you tell them they're privileged. Which, like, I really understand in practice why that is because it makes them feel defensive. It might make them feel embarrassed if they understand what that means. But, like, that's just, it's just is what it is. Right. I've got a. I've got a shit ton of privilege. But you know what? You use that to do some good, you know what I mean? But it is that, that shame that. That's that's why people get so offended when you're like, oh, but you're privileged. It's like always these guys that are like, oh, you can't be a white male anymore. Like, no, that's not it. You just need to just look at the societal systems that make life a little bit easy for you. Easier for you than the other person. We're not saying life is easy.
[00:28:57] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. Maybe, like, maybe this is a good place for you to kind of take us through a bit around like, privilege and power and like complicity in the context of what we're talking about.
[00:29:08] Speaker B: That's. Yeah, because I think this one's really interesting. I think we touched on it when we had Jess on the difference between the pipelines targeted at men and those targeted at women.
Because obviously alt right pipelines only have this binary approach to gender. So they're going to have only the two. Like, they don't have a non binary alt right that I'm aware of, but they are so different. And so I think it's quite easy for us to look at the men's version and say, like, yeah, they've got a lot of privilege, that they don't have to question their assumptions and it's super harmful. You could see the harm. But the women's version is so much more subtle.
Like the entrance into the pipeline is more subtle, the maintenance is more subtle and the privilege within it is, I would argue, a little more subtle. Now, probably not subtle to those who are marginalized as a result, but it's not like, you know, active, like harassment and abuse the same way it is in the men's pipeline.
[00:30:08] Speaker A: Like you were saying, it's like that more benevolent side of it in a way, which is harder to catch.
[00:30:12] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. And women are more. I had a great conversation with Manuela Barreto, who is just like the queen of ambivalent sexism theory, and she was talking about how more women are likely to accept benevolent sexism in hostile environments or even not recognize it. So they might not recognize it or they might be like, this is okay, because. And I would argue that the alt right is a hostile environment towards women because you step out of that box and you are straight met with harassment, you know, with. With potentially even violence. And so women might be way more likely to accept benevolent sexism in these situations.
[00:30:56] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And it almost comes onto that. I guess then it's the fear of leaving those environments is because you are probably going to be met with some sort of punishment Right. And it makes it. Honestly, as we were kind of planning for this episode, I just kept thinking about like TV documentaries I watched about like cults and things like that. And it is just like the same, almost like play by play of like what happens in those experiences when you literally, you've got the realization, you've got kind of the shame, you've got the guilt, you've got the exclusion, you've lost like your family and like friends outside of whatever, you know, cult or however you want to frame it like you're engaging with. But it's that, it's that actually it feels, I guess it feels more unsafe to leave than it does to stay.
[00:31:51] Speaker B: Yeah, because absolutely. Because it offers stability in heavy quotes and hierarchy, which. But I also want to talk about what it looks like to benefit in this. I want to expand on that a little bit more than the, the psychology of it because I think we went into like the why a lot last episode and it's hard to recognize your privilege in a system. Right. And the thing that we have to also recognize is the real people that are harmful in this movement are the women who like they're pretending to be in the home looking after their kids and cooking when really they are working full time as content creators and they're making a shit ton of money but block them have nannies and people cleaning for them. Right. So it's not like they are actually doing these stay at home mom labor.
And a lot of these women aren't just participating in the harm, they're gaining status. They're getting partnerships, they're getting, you know, big social media followings, they're getting praised for like being like, oh, you're so disciplined, you're so feminine and empowered when and obviously this is true the most for straight, white, able bodied, thin women. And that's who you see dominating the space. And there's a reason for that. Right?
And this pipeline rewards you as long as you're playing the game. So like, like we were saying that benevolent sexism because it feels like safety and we've seen this, this harm that they're committing, I suppose play out in our politics. Right. So we've got the wellness moms, you know, support supporting RFK Jr and his shit show approach to autism and vaccines, like the vaccine fear is crazy right now. And now they're using all this to look in, look into and heavy quotes, the abortion pill, which is the safest and most equitable way to have an abortion. And so they can effectively ban abortion by banning this pill. Which they're already set. That's what they're one of the reasons they're doing all this autism and vaccine for fear stuff, right? This started with those like, wellness moms that Jess talks about a lot. They also did a lot of book bans. So they're banning books about fascism, they're banning books about civil rights, they're banning books about interracial couples and stuff like that. And it's just like, it's just really frustrating because it starts what you think is small. And these privileged women have literally created many, many crises. And like I said, it's more subtle in the sense that it's like, it's not like they're going up and going out and beating up somebody. You know what I mean? But actually people are suffering. I mean, this vaccine fear has led to cutting cancer research in the US So like, it's crazy. So like we. I won't go too much into the stuff we touched on last episode, like white femininity, but I think you guys really need to focus on or be aware of that white feminine ideal and how that's weaponized and just keep that in your little social media detox. Think about what, what you're looking at and like, oh, shit, this is exactly the picture of that white feminine trad wife ideal. And I've had enough of respectability politics. That is enough. It tells women if you're good enough, you'll be safe, right? But you're paying a price, which leads to that burnout, right? It's silence, it's complicity and harm, it's constant performance.
And that's when this proximity to power, because if you're a white woman, especially like middle to upper class and able bodied, you're higher up on the hierarchy of patriarchy and white supremacy, but you still don't have power or safety. It could be ripped away at any moment. Like, that's what I was talking about. The guardrails for women, for example, the divorce rates of when women get like a cancer diagnosis is insane. Men just leave their wives.
[00:35:54] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:35:55] Speaker B: Like you think you're safe in your relationship. So that's why it's important if you are, if you do like stay at home, mom work, to have those guardrails to really think about it. And because we still live in a patriarchy, right? You could be married to the most awesome person ever, but the system is still there.
And women don't have to believe authoritarianism is real to enable it. Actually, it's usually the ones that don't see it that are enabling it. So. And lots of these women think they're doing good, like these wellness moms because they've been sold a version of this goodness that's just very exclusionary by design.
Yeah.
[00:36:35] Speaker A: They probably believe that they are empowering women to be who they want to be and to like live their lives. And, and while that could be one side of the story, it's certainly not like the entirety of it. And I was wondering, you know, you talk again, maybe I just like the term guard rails. Is that what you said? Yeah. But what are like some examples of what they might be for like these women or what would you recommend, like people looking into?
[00:37:06] Speaker B: I think it's something that's very personal to each person and each relationship. I've heard people publicly talk about having separate bank accounts. Right. And I know a lot of people nowadays who essentially the mom is getting a salary from her stay at home work because really what, what, what's happening is most women have worked, right. So in, in our this day and age, I would say the majority of women, not all, but the majority, have had at least a small job waitressing or even like a high career job before they decide to transition to a stay at home mom role. And if something ever happens to their husband, whether they're, you know, they are a shit person and they leave them or something happens that's like tragic and they die or something, you've, you've got two things.
You don't have your own money, right. And you've also missed out on 20 odd or whatever years of progressing in your career to make the money that you need to support your family. So I think money's a big one, a big guardrail because we do live in a capitalistic society. Right.
I think that's a serious. If you are going to agree to, I think firstly marry somebody anyway, obviously you need to have a conversation about finances. Are you going to do a joint account? Are you going to do a separate account? What's the income and expenses going to look like? Do you have just like a free for all and like whatever, you know what I mean? But especially if, because being a stay at home mom is a sacrifice because any, any work is a sacrifice, but being a stay at home mom, it's a 24, 7 job, right. So you're going to love it. But you can also recognize that it's really hard and that you are sacrificing a level of safety and a capitalistic patriarchy. So I think money is a big one to focus on.
[00:38:57] Speaker A: Yeah. And like you say something that is quite individual for everyone and they can kind of explore for themselves. But yeah, no, I like that.
I like a good example. So. Well, I suppose should we go a little bit on to then? I guess like this fear of leaving, which kind of we touched on like, briefly before, but I suppose it is mostly like as we're getting out and there might be again that social punishment, but it also might also be maybe is like a disruption to like, say more financially. Perhaps that is actually something that people are afraid of or struggling with. Or maybe it is more focused around this, like, social exclusion, losing those kind of safe spaces you've been in previously.
But what I wanted to do here was ask you a couple of questions. Really, Kristin, if that's. If that's it, do it, go for it.
[00:39:48] Speaker B: No, you can't. You can't ask me questions. Nope.
[00:39:51] Speaker A: Three questions. So one is like, so we've been talking a lot about empowerment, Right. And almost how this is like kind of a fake empowerment. So what does real empowerment look like? And how is that different to the empowerment from these alt right communities?
[00:40:07] Speaker B: That is a loaded question, Laura, with zero warning.
So, but the first thing that pops into my head is, what is empowerment? I would say it's authenticity. It's being able to be authentic. I think that's. That is it for me. Like, if. What does empowered feel like? It feels like you can be yourself in the ways that you want to be. And that just screams authenticity to me. Right. And so, I mean, and the only way to become authentic is to really look inward and learn about yourself and your relationship to the world.
And I think that's where it's like, it's so different because it's messy.
We know this with clients that, you know, authenticity is a big part of the work we try to do with people because that's where your happiness and your health comes from. That's where, you know, your identity is. Like our first episode, talking about, like, is it a real identity or is it a performed identity?
A performed identity is exhausting. And that's what this is offering. And it's also offering rules that are technically antithetical to the human experience. So it's not empowerment. It's actually just a different box that, like, maybe sparkly box.
[00:41:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:19] Speaker B: Whereas empowerment, from my point of view, is authenticity, being able to explore your values and live within them.
[00:41:26] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. It's like, it's. The word has been misused and twisted to be something that it kind of isn't. Okay, second Question for. Let's say, for example, maybe we know someone who is exiting or trying to kind of get out of this, this kind of system.
How can we, like, support them, hold space for them without kind of like, I guess, inciting like that shame and guilt.
[00:41:55] Speaker B: Yeah, because it is like that shame spiral that keeps people in. So. But this is a really hard one for multiple reasons.
And I won't go into all of them, but the two, the.
The two that pop into my head is because, like, we just got balloons. Oh, I didn't even see what. What did we do? Why did balloons again, I don't know, like, completely distracted me.
[00:42:26] Speaker A: I think.
[00:42:26] Speaker B: So the first thing is, number one, shame is a really useful tool. There's a reason we've evolved this, you know, as an emotion. And it's something that, like shunning and shaming.
People are starting to use that with family members or friends that they're like, I. I just, you know, I don't interact with you anymore. I call you out on your problematic beliefs. And it works. That's why tools like embarrassment and shame are useful from getting. For getting people to reflect on their behavior.
Um, but you do want to hold a safe space for them, and it can be difficult to do. It's thinking you've caused harm. It's hard to give an open, like, environment to people who have caused harm, despite what maybe you've been telling them for a decade. And so I think that's another reason it's hard. And it's like a natural thing to feel a bit of resentment. However, I would say it's also on us to be reflexive about our own reactions to when people are trying to climb out of these pipelines and, you know, as long as it's not going to cause you harm, offer that social connection and support and reflection that they're probably seeking.
[00:43:39] Speaker A: Yeah, that's interesting. I think we often see shame as being inherently like a bad thing. But like you say, well, actually, shame does have a function. Like, there's a reason why, why it's there.
But I guess, is it.
It's almost like the two things you said. So being like a stable source of friendship, belonging, whatever it might be for that person, but also being honest and actually like saying, well, yeah, you're complicit with this thing. So is it kind of like those two things?
[00:44:13] Speaker B: Yeah, it's like everything. You know what, it's nuanced. So, like, yeah, I try.
This is, this is my approach, is I make myself a safe person for everyone as Long as I know they're not going to cause me harm, I'm that safe person. But it's also the Popper's paradox of intolerance. I have zero tolerance for intolerance. And so I'm a safe space for you, but I'm not safe for you to spew racist, misogynistic, homophobic shit to. I will call you out on that. I will try to do it in a nice way.
Right.
[00:44:43] Speaker A: To.
[00:44:44] Speaker B: And I will also make sure that I'm still a safe person in other stuff.
Right. Because if. If I'm trying to, like, get them out of this, I think there are some instances, like, I would argue people with more marginalized identities, like, I know a lot of black people and brown people who have cut off MAGA family members because they just don't feel safe. So I think it's a very personal thing, but I think holding space for people who are actively making an effort to become better while still holding them accountable. But that's why it's hard to get people out. It's because they are held accountable.
[00:45:20] Speaker A: So last. Well, last question. This kind of links in to rebuilding as well, I think. So kind of wounds. You're out. But what sort of practices do you think can help people build a more honest relationship with their values?
[00:45:34] Speaker B: I feel like most people don't think about what their values even are.
[00:45:39] Speaker A: Yeah, this is true.
This is not true.
[00:45:43] Speaker B: Step one is start learning about yourself. What do you value?
[00:45:47] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:45:48] Speaker B: There are so many different ways. And you know about this probably even more than I do with your ACT approach. Values is such a big part of ACT that, like, I think there's a billion different tools you can use to start narrowing down your values or what to look at. So there's online quizzes. You can just literally write in your journal and think about what you value most in the world. It's not like if you decide on one day to find out your values that that's a static thing over time or that you've developed it. So it's just that reflexive approach. But I think you should speak to it as well.
[00:46:20] Speaker A: Yeah, I guess the one thing that I've started to try and think about more is like, vitality, like what makes you feel vitality. So yes, there's the values kind of piece and I guess almost like labeling our values. But I think a really good starting point is actually what makes you feel good, you know, like. Like what do you enjoy? Like, what brings like a smile to your face? Like, if we think about. I Suppose what we were talking about before, we're talking about that pressure, right? We're talking about like feeling burnt out, feeling like we're doing things that we have to do. What actually just are you doing because you love it or what does gives you that kind of feeling where maybe it is kind of just feeling content, Maybe it is something that gives you you happiness or whatever it might be. But I think thinking about that vitality piece, then that leading into values as.
[00:47:14] Speaker B: Well, I think that's a really good way of doing it because you don't have to be like, my value is equity and now I am a social justice warrior. I mean, hey, go for it and do it. I love it. But like, yeah, that's. That makes it feel very hard. Right. I think start with what makes you happy, what you value. Time with friends. That is a value, right. You value social connection, stuff like that. I love that. I think we talk about this in many different forms across a lot of episodes is just, just like connecting with your humanity, essentially.
[00:47:49] Speaker A: Yeah, 100%. And I think, I guess when we're talking about this rebuild, then I guess it's not that there's going to be a clear solution or a clear answer. Like Kristin said, it's going to be a lot of reflection, it's going to be messy, it's going to be difficult. But it is, you know, something that's hopefully moving people forward perhaps towards vitality, towards like values. And maybe it is kind of embedded in finding like new communities or new places where you can feel a belonging and actually trying to let go of some of these ideas around like purity and perfection that you've almost been told are the things that make you worthy. So finding what other things that make you worthy, that give you that. Yeah.
[00:48:35] Speaker B: And worthy.
Worthy in your own eyes.
[00:48:38] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:48:39] Speaker B: Not worthy in the eyes of some influencer or, you know, the movement more broadly or what the hierarchy says or the system. Worthy in your eyes and your family's eyes. You know what I mean?
[00:48:52] Speaker A: Yeah, 100%.
I think that's, that's is hard because we are all so like socially constructed to think that worth is X, Y or Z. Right.
And I think it, it's. It takes a long time to get to a point where even you can just be worthy by just being, you know, like it doesn't need to be, it doesn't need to be more than that. Maybe it is just more around accepting, you know, ourselves for who we are and so on.
[00:49:22] Speaker B: Yeah. Figuring out who you are and then accepting it and that's why we have jobs, essentially. That's what we help people do. And I just. We're evolved to, like, be in fields and like, pick berries and then like, tell stories around a fire and every once in a while hunt. We're not evolved for what is happening right now. I just think it's really important when we're talking about reflecting on privilege and where you sit in these systems and stuff like that. Being empowered and heavy quotes doesn't mean you're automatically switching morals or values or belief systems.
It means that you're aware of the power. That's the existing power structures. You're aware that this exists. Right. And then choosing to disrupt it because you recognize that it's harmful. It doesn't have to be big disruptions, just small disruptions. It's just becoming conscious and reflexive. And that's all we're. We're trying to like, encourage people to do, especially just with this podcast more generally is become more reflexive and become more critically conscious. That's, that's, I think, what the aims are.
[00:50:28] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think as well that this word like disrupt might be like, kind of uncomfortable for some people or even like a bit triggering, especially if we've been taught to, you know, be small and quiet and like, perfect or whatever. But disrupting might just be asking a question or even like asking for clarity on something. Or it could be, I don't know, just. Just having that deeper conversation. Just like disrupting something doesn't have mean that you're like burning something down. Even though if you want to, that's totally, you know, why not Wait, no one go set fire.
[00:51:07] Speaker B: No one set fire.
[00:51:08] Speaker A: If you set fire to something, it's not my fault. I'm not to be held.
[00:51:12] Speaker B: She's telling you to go have like, a bonfire in your backyard where it is safe and you are not damaging property.
[00:51:19] Speaker A: Totally. Totally. But I think as well, I think it's.
Think about what does that disruption or that challenge kind of look like for you? Like Kristen said, it could be like the smallest thing. But yeah, I think that's something quite nice to think about. So I suppose that's kind of.
We've kind of gone through, I suppose from like the mask coming off to the challenges of like, exiting and. And then kind of how we rebuild, how we reflect, how we might challenge and disrupt. So I suppose we just want to end on like, maybe just a couple of reflections from this series as a whole. So it's our first series and I guess while it's been like Quite a lot. Maybe you found it useful for us to dig a bit deeper into some things.
Maybe you've seen yourself in some of the topics like we've discussed, maybe in a surprising way, maybe in a difficult way.
And again, like we said from the beginning, like, it's not like we're judging here. It's about, you know, how can we be aware, how can we question, and so on. So I wonder, Kristen, do you have any reflections that you want to kind of throw out there?
[00:52:28] Speaker B: Well, this being our first series, I had fun doing a series. I quite like it because sometimes in our single episode episodes, I feel like we're rushing to cover a topic with nuance because we like nuance. That's the point of this.
So I quite enjoyed it. And I think I feel like we've ended on kind of a nice uplifting note because I feel like the first podcast, I mean, we were so like, this is so freaking annoying. And like, what do we do? This is, this is crazy. And it's causing so much harm, which is true. And last week we were like, oh my God, you know, people are stuck in this. This is why and everyone.
And then now it's like, let's treat people like humans. Let people come out of these pipelines. And it's also on the people in these pipelines to do the work. Now the sad thing is I don't really think many people on the alt right pipeline will be watching our podcast or listening to our podcast, but perhaps you know, somebody and maybe, like, maybe.
[00:53:29] Speaker A: When they start to, you know, like be in the cycle or start to try and come up, maybe you, you find something like this.
[00:53:35] Speaker B: Well, exactly.
[00:53:36] Speaker A: Maybe it helps.
[00:53:38] Speaker B: Yeah. It's just like naming that it's a phenomenon that actually exists. You're not alone. And experiencing could be causing a lot of harm. And taking responsibility is like an important first step. But then it's totally worth it on the other side of it to become authentic, you know, learn your, your identity as a person and just become so much happier. And I guess that's my reflection is just like, is just like how weird it is, I suppose. And we know this from our, both of our practice, but like everything coming back down to authenticity and humanity, it always just comes back down to that.
[00:54:14] Speaker A: Funny that, isn't it?
[00:54:16] Speaker B: Funny how that works and values and so I don't know if that was really a reflection. It wasn't a reflection. Reflective question, I suppose, for the audience.
[00:54:25] Speaker A: I don't think we necessarily need one. I think like you say you're totally right. And it's nice to almost be in a place where maybe we've given a little bit of hope to the situation as opposed to, well, who knows? I was going to say as opposed to our usual existential dread, but there is probably still plenty of dread within this.
But yeah, I think it's nice to talk about the kind of practical bits and, and like you say, actually when we think about the themes that come into how we support people to live a fulfilling life, it ends up coming back to a lot of, like you say those similar things like being authentic, doing what you love, engaging in positive relationships and things like that.
[00:55:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I feel like even just from the beginning of our episode, it's gone much more positive in tone.
[00:55:14] Speaker A: Phew.
[00:55:14] Speaker B: Thank God we did it. I guess this is a good start spot to close. But guys, we would love to hear what you think about the series. I know it's only our first one, so you don't have a lot of data to go on, but we love any feedback on it. Please just like comment on our YouTube or, you know, send us a DM or comment on our Instagram page, which is probably the most helpful thing. So yeah, let us know what you think. So with that said, thank you guys so much for listening. As always, we probably left you with more questions than answers, but that's the point. We love digging into the messy undercurrents of the alt right pipeline for women for the last few weeks, and we hope that you've enjoyed these longer series so we can kind of dig into these important topics more deeply. Do you have any thoughts? Questions? Rage? We want to hear it. Drop a comment, message us and shout into the void if you want. But honestly, tagging us is way more helpful.
If there's a topic you'd love us to dig into, just get in touch because we're always up for a new rabbit hole. I think next month is already covered because it's Halloween month, so we're going to have something fun for you guys. But if you liked this episode, please don't forget to follow like rate scream about it from the rooftops. And tell your friends you can find all of our links on the but why Instagram page. It's in the bio. And remember, the first step to understanding is asking but why?
Yay.
[00:56:40] Speaker A: Sam.
