Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:14] Speaker B: Welcome to but why? Real Talk on Messy Minds and Messier Systems, the podcast where two psychologists overanalyze everything so you don't have to. We're here to unpack the weird, the worrying, and the wildly unjust with just enough existential dread to keep it interesting. I'm Dr. Kristen.
[00:00:30] Speaker A: And I'm Dr. Laura. Let's dive into the mess. Let's do it. Oh, today is going to be slightly messy because we're talking about stress, which is, like, our favorite thing to talk.
[00:00:39] Speaker B: About in the whole world, unfortunately for us and you guys probably.
[00:00:46] Speaker A: So. Well, I suppose to start with, welcome back to our holiday series.
So last time we spoke about nostalgia kind of around this, this time of the year, around the holiday season, and how we get a lot of nostalgia kind of pulled out of us around this, this time of year. So go back and listen to that one if you would like to, but this one can probably stand alone. If you just want to talk to us about stress, that's absolutely fine.
So we're going to talk about what happens when the holidays finally arrived and the reality doesn't quite match the versions that we had in our head.
So this is kind of around, like, the holidays that we actually get because for a lot of us, the holidays aren't just like nice, cosy lights and good movies. They tend to be quite stressful, quite loud, quite expensive, and pretty emotionally complicated.
So we're going to chat a bit about this, like, collision of expectations of old family roles, sensory overload. We're going to talk about gendered expectations, which Kristen really wanted to talk to us about.
I know. So we're going to dig into all of that stuff, and we're going to try our best not to be too cynical, but we're kind of just being honest right around kind of the reality at this time of year. They can be tough. Um, it doesn't mean that we're kind of ungrateful for the time of this time of year. Um, but it's just human, right? It's human at this time of year to be experiencing quite a lot of stress. So we're going to talk about that. Yeah.
[00:02:25] Speaker B: We can't just, like, have happy emotions in a silo. That's not a very human thing. It's always going to be a mixture of the shit show of the human brain.
[00:02:35] Speaker A: Totally. And that's why. I don't know. For the human experience.
[00:02:38] Speaker B: The human experience.
[00:02:40] Speaker A: So.
So we're shifting then. We're shifting from this idealized version into the real life version And I mean, the fantasy, if you like, of the. The holidays does tend to crack eventually.
Whether this is through, I don't know. For those of you have to travel far, it can be like traveling chaos. It can be hosting stress. For those of you who host, it can be to do with, you know, being around family and so on, or gift pressure. The gift pressures can be real.
So there's like, this paradox that this. This season that we're told is going to be really restful and joyful and really nice and lovely can often be, like, the least restful time of the year.
So I guess.
[00:03:31] Speaker B: Do you mean most the.
[00:03:33] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Did I not. What did I say?
[00:03:35] Speaker B: You said the least stressful.
[00:03:39] Speaker A: Shall I restart that?
[00:03:40] Speaker B: No, I enjoyed it. I think we should keep it.
[00:03:43] Speaker A: Okay, that's fine. So this is an example of how I get similar words mixed up.
I do this all the time. Matt's like, you said this. And I'm like, no, I didn't. I did not say that thing. This is proof that Matt's right.
But, yeah, when does this, like, so when does it kind of crack for you in a sense? Like, is there a point where the stress starts to build up and become real for you? Around, like, the holiday season?
[00:04:13] Speaker B: I want to say, because it usually ends up only if I'm, like, hosting, right. And again, it's like this, like, messy thing because I really love hosting because I love getting people that I really care about into my house. I don't have to leave my house. I just get to have all these fun people there, have a few drinks. I love cooking and making a good meal. But also me being me, I decided to do it all on my own because I want it done exactly the way I want. And Jack has, like, sous chef vibes. And not because he can't do it, but because I just want it done this way. The only thing he does is every once in a while if he does, like, beef. But we are doing turkey, and I do a really good turkey, so it's usually around that time, which is just, like, kind of annoying because it's like the main day, but, like. And it's all the stress of making sure you've got all the food and you've got plates for everyone and. And stuff like that. And that's usually when, like, the actual, like, I don't know, I guess noticeable stress pops up. I also think I do have stress from not being near my family over the holidays, but I don't tend to focus on that much because it's it is quite difficult to focus on it. So I just kind of focus on being present as much as possible.
So that's more of like kind of like a background noise if that makes sense.
[00:05:40] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, totally. The real noise is whether you have enough plates or not.
[00:05:44] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. What am I going to do? Like it's not even the end of the world. It's not like the people that come over on Christmas or like explore this like crazy fantasy land. But you know what, I'm like, I have to be super extra if I'm going to do it. If I'm going to do it. It needs to be done right. I've got all these dishes, they have to be done the way I want them to be done. I want my table set up perfectly, I want my Colorado y Christmas decorations.
All that jazz.
[00:06:13] Speaker A: That sounds so nice. You see I think I'm so lucky because I don't.
I've never had to host Christmas. It's just always been at my parents house.
So I don't get that like the hosting stress. My sister is now kind of semi taken over like the cooking duties and planning and timing and stuff. But it's been this really like interesting transition because of course my mum always used to. Well has always done it. Probably, probably maybe like 3 years ago my sister started kind of doing it. But that was so interesting because my sister like she also kind of like you will like to be in control of everything and know exactly what she's doing and has a plan of how she wants it to be but that my mum can't quite let go of the fact that like used to be what she did so she's fair and it ends up being like just like, just go sit down like everything will be fine.
So that's kind of a fun like new dynamic. We're kind of unpacking but I think I am. Yeah, I'm lucky that I think that doesn't cause too much direct stress. Maybe slightly indirect stress.
But yeah, I think for me it's almost like it's like after Christmas it's more maybe like after Boxing Day. I think when the reality starts to hit that like I've got to go back home and then return to like normal life and then I have this thing like after the holidays where I feel like I need to sort out my entire house and de junk everything and like have like a fresh start and then I start to really like stress myself.
[00:07:52] Speaker B: Oh no.
[00:07:54] Speaker A: And then on top of all of like the sensory stuff that you've had from like Being home, like, for the holidays and things, it all just starts to, like, build a bit.
[00:08:01] Speaker B: Oh, God.
Well, that's like a. That's a tough way to start the year because I feel like I'm the office. I'm like, office. I am the office. I am the opposite. We are not doing words well today.
So I'm like, the opposite. I'm like, stress, stress, stress. Ah. Leading up to Christmas, and then I, like, crash on that period we have off between Christmas and New Year. And then I usually tend to start the new year off quite slow and relaxed. And then it just kind of gets more and more and more intense as the year goes on. And then there's my reset period.
[00:08:35] Speaker A: Okay, okay. Yes, yes.
And, like, do you feel then expectations, like, around this time of year, like, I guess with hosting, do you feel quite, like, heavy expectations then for everything to be, like, just right?
[00:08:50] Speaker B: Probably, like everything else, the expectations come from no one but myself.
Okay.
Like, I could just easily say, like, let's do a potluck, everyone bring a dish, blah, blah. But no, I. It needs to be the right way.
[00:09:05] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. What's going to be in it? Yeah. I've realized recently how picky I really am with food.
Like, I just could bring whatever you want. No, bring whatever you want unless it's very clearly labeled.
[00:09:19] Speaker B: Yeah, let's make a spreadsheet. And by let's, I mean not me, somebody else make a spreadsheet.
[00:09:26] Speaker A: That's what my sister is the best at. She has a Christmas spreadsheet. And then we'll kind of allocate things for people to. To buy and things, and then it all runs off the spreadsheet. She's an accountant, so she's like a spreadsheet. God. Yeah.
[00:09:39] Speaker B: That is. I'm jealous.
Just looking at a spreadsheet makes me want to just run away. So that's very helpful.
[00:09:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:09:48] Speaker B: But I also think, like, I don't know if you have any, like, crazy expectations, but I think that the expectations around Christmas a lot of the time come when you have kids because, like, you want to make it so magical for them and live up to this, like, the. The hot tip again. Guys, we're talking about the secrets behind Santa Claus today, so maybe not a kid friend episode.
Little. Little warning before we. We get going.
So. But, like, you're supposed to be living up to the expectations of Santa Claus.
[00:10:19] Speaker A: Right.
[00:10:19] Speaker B: So I could see why that would make crazy expectations for someone. Definitely for parents.
[00:10:28] Speaker A: Yeah. How do you.
How do you match the magicalness of Santa Claus. Yeah.
Yeah.
[00:10:38] Speaker B: What about you? Do you start.
When's your moment? I guess you kind of just said, like, it's after the holidays for you.
[00:10:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I know, but I was just thinking about that because I think it is after the holiday days, but I think it's, like, also kind of acutely in small moments throughout, like, so, say, between, like, Christmas Eve and, like, Boxing Day. But in terms of, like, the expectations or even, like, that, that I was thinking back to, like, the idea of, like, identity, which we were talking about, like, last time. Like, I see a certain version of myself, like, on Christmas or throughout the holiday, which is like, oh, it's really chill and it's a really nice time, and I'm just, like, taking it all in and enjoying everything. But then when it gets to it, it's much more, like, spiky than that, if you know what I mean. So I'm probably much more up and down. Like, sometimes. Like, I'm really good in, like, the social environment.
Sometimes I'm just like, don't talk to me. Like, I can't say anything. Like, I'm just, like, done. So I think my expectation is probably reflected in, like, what I just said in a way, in, like, oh, no, I'm just stressed after it. Like, in reality, I probably. It's that spikiness. So it's like, there's moments where I feel really good and I feel great, and then there's moments when I'm like, please, can everybody just, like, leave me alone?
[00:12:01] Speaker B: And, like.
[00:12:02] Speaker A: And I can get very particular and picky about things, especially with, like, my food preferences and. And things.
But I think that kind of links in. We'll talk a little bit, I think, about, like, more sensory stuff later. And I guess how that links to.
[00:12:18] Speaker B: Some of the inside of things. Oh, my God, that's like, a huge.
[00:12:23] Speaker A: Part of it for me, which I haven't, like, necessarily unpacked much before.
[00:12:30] Speaker B: Well, do you want to go into that side of it now since we're kind of, like, on topic anyway. But before we do that, I just wanted to say or ask, I guess that, like, did you always have stress from those emo. That, like, expectation? Or, like, have you always, like, had that spiky experience? Or do you think that's something that's happened more? It's like you've become, like, a real adult in heavy quotes.
[00:12:56] Speaker A: I think it's always been. I think it's always been quite like that. Like, but I, like, I can almost. Yeah. See myself almost having these quite, like, high highs or being really excited and then being kind of frustrated mostly because, say, I can think of this very specific example where like, I guess the family needs clash.
So my, this is a game about me and my sister.
But like, my sister loves to watch, you know, like the Christmas holiday specials of like certain things. And it might be, I don't know, call the midwife or Doctor who or something and she'll love to watch them and so does like the rest of my family, more or less anyway. But we'll put things like that on.
But I don't really. I'm not that bothered about watching them. So I remember specifically this one year where I just got some new Lego and I was like, well, you guys watch that. I'm just gonna build my Lego here, like just on the floor. But I remember I was being like too loud, like rustling and all of the Lego and building it. So then it's like I feel frustrated, like everybody else feels frustrated because it's like, well, like say my sister wants to listen to the TV and watch the tv. But then it's like, oh, we all want to be together though. So it's like everybody wants to be together, but everybody's doing slightly different things and like making different noises and like just wants to be doing their thing.
And then it's like, well, do we need to go into separate rooms? Then it's like, well, that's not the point of the holidays. We all need to be in the same room together. So then there becomes this kind of stress around, like trying to, to keep everybody content in what they want to do, but whilst also being with one another. And I think that's something that I've always found kind of difficult or kind of felt like rude in a sense if I want to take myself off to do something else. But also probably didn't really want to be on my own, like anyway, do you know what I mean? So there's then like this kind of like slight internal conflict, I think around this time of year, like trying to make sure everybody is able to do what they want to do.
Yeah.
[00:15:09] Speaker B: And I feel like as well as like quite high masking autistic women people, you're extra, I guess, aware firstly of being perceived and how people might perceive you. And you are also hyper aware of like trying to manage like, oh, well, I don't want anyone to be upset if I just want to go take myself away for half an hour. Right. When like really in the grand scheme of the week or whatever you're spending together for Christmas, that Half an hour will probably give you sanity and it's not going to make a difference in the amount of time you've spent together. You know what I mean?
[00:15:48] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And I think around this time of year I'm often like hyper aware of like my mum's stress as well. So I'm always trying to like be aware and like help her when I can, but then also recognize that I probably am not going to be able to do enough to, to help. So then there's almost like that vicarious stress that ends up coming onto you even if I'm actually just going to be chilling out and having a nice time.
So there's that part of it as well. Like being very aware of like the environment and yeah. Wanting everybody to feel content but then also wanting to try and look after yourself.
[00:16:25] Speaker B: Do you know there's people that can just like go into these environments and chill.
[00:16:30] Speaker A: Oh my.
[00:16:30] Speaker B: And not like overly perceive every little social dynamic that's happening that again, in the grand scheme of things doesn't really matter. And like there are just people that do that.
[00:16:43] Speaker A: I just don't, I don't believe it. No, don't believe it.
[00:16:47] Speaker B: I do because people have told me, people have been like, what do you mean? I'm like, well, what do you mean? Like, I think there's definitely the gendered aspect which we'll get to in a little bit. Like all those videos you see of the women in the kitchen cooking and the men just sitting there watching like tv, like the game.
But I also think like, it for sure is a neurodivergent thing for me. Like over the holidays it's less the sensory stuff because I have relatively good control over the. Aside from like loud talking and things like that, like restaurants. So maybe this links in actually. But the thing that gets me the most over the holidays is the social expectations.
It's like firstly this requirement to engage more in socializing because it's like it's that time of year so now we suddenly have to shove in six weeks of seeing people that we don't see the rest of the year.
And it's always in these loud ass restaurants or whatever. And you're already really stressed from work, work and from whatever else you have going on. And it's like, it's, it's like just the social expectations. And it's not always people you want to hang out with, is it? It's like sometimes it's like, I don't know, acquaintances or just like adding in an extra united game with you Know like work people or whatever it is. And it's just like, oh well it's the holidays so everyone wants to get dressed up and go out.
[00:18:18] Speaker A: Do they? Oh, and they're drifting up. Yeah. I do quite well to avoid. I think I do quite well to avoid things like this is the benefits of not having that many friends.
Don't have to go to too much stuff. So my stuff is mostly like family based or going out with like some of Matt's friends and things which I kind of don't mind. I'm not doing anything anyway. It's like, oh, I should probably go out and like no.
Some sort of Christmas cheer.
But I.
[00:18:47] Speaker B: That well that's the thing is like there's this feeling to need to do that and like that expectation is probably the biggest one for me as like an autistic person. And it's like, oh, we have to go to the light show, do we?
[00:19:01] Speaker A: Oh no, no, do not. Definitely don't go to the light.
[00:19:05] Speaker B: And there's just lights and like, like.
[00:19:09] Speaker A: You can see them turned on at other light days when there aren't as many people there.
[00:19:14] Speaker B: Yeah. And like if I've seen one light show, I've seen a million light shows. And no offense uk, but yours are not necessarily anything to talk home about. Like I see the light shows better than this in neighborhoods in the US.
I don't need to pay 12 pounds to go watch like a, like even just like last year, what was it? Or two years ago, like the outline of a Christmas tree. Like not even a full Christmas. I'm like, what is this? And now I'm surrounded by hundreds of people that are all coughing. No thanks.
[00:19:46] Speaker A: Oh my goodness. Definitely not. Okay, so I have a story. Okay, Saturday, so I went out.
I was like so autistic in this moment. So I went out to a restaurant. It was just a really nice restaurant. I went with like my parents and my sister and Matt and it was like, yeah, really nice restaurant. Love it there. Everyone's so lovely. But we got there quite early so there wasn't really many people around. And I was sat right underneath a speaker and so all I could hear was this music. And I was already kind of slightly overstimulated because we'd been shopping previously.
[00:20:27] Speaker B: You still shop in person? Oh, I struggle to do that over.
[00:20:30] Speaker A: The holiday because I was meeting with my family in Liverpool so we were like, let's do a little bit of shopping. It was only for like three hours, but slightly over stimulated anyway. Matt accidentally shouted in my ear on the way over there. So I was. I was like, really, really on edge.
I sat down, I was right underneath the speaker. And I was just like, I can't process anything anybody's saying because this music is, like, causing me pain. Of course. So anyway, so then my mum very kindly asked that the, like, waitress if they could turn the music down. She was lovely. She was like, yes, of course, it's absolutely fine. But then she was like, I'll ask the dj. And the dj, like, wasn't very far away from us. And then. And he did turn it down.
But, like, throughout the whole meal, I just felt like he was, he was. Look, I felt like he was looking at me and he probably wasn't, but I felt like he kept looking at me like, why are you making me turn my music down? He kept wandering over, like, to our table to, like, listen to the music and, like, see what the volume was. Was like. And I was like, oh, my God.
[00:21:34] Speaker B: This is really weird.
[00:21:35] Speaker A: Why? Because I've asked you to turn it down.
But, like, they were very. They were super helpful. The woman was even like, you can go over to this table and come over and hear what it sounds like over here. And I was like, I don't want to get up and go in here. She was like, we can just pretend we're looking at something else. And I was like, it's okay, this is fine now.
So they were lovely. But, like, I find it interesting how in that moment I'm like, yes, I'm trying to, like, advocate for my needs and preferences, but I almost feel worse because I've asked and would I actually feel better right now if I didn't have to say anything?
So I was like, maybe I just need to start taking, like, my loops everywhere with me because, yeah, that's definitely being a whole thing.
[00:22:24] Speaker B: Well then.
[00:22:24] Speaker A: And then the social stress.
[00:22:26] Speaker B: Yeah, well then, like, you feel like you need to mask even more. Like, oh, I'm fine now because you did.
[00:22:33] Speaker A: Everything's great.
[00:22:34] Speaker B: You did a small thing for me. You can't feel like you're still having a challenge in that situation. You feel like you have to mask. And I really do think that the holidays is really difficult.
There's all the sensory stuff that's, like, really hard. But I think it's the masking, like, this expectation to mask because everyone wants to feel happy and special over the holidays. And so that means that you have to facilitate that. As a high masking, autistic woman, it's your job to make everyone else feel comfortable and even when you're having a good time, a lot of these times you're still masking. And I think that's probably the main thing that gets me is it really burns me out over the holidays, like a two week period of just constant being on. And I've really had to cut back on the level of socializing for that reason because I don't have the capacity not to mask.
I'm working on it, but I'm either socializing and I'm masking or I'm just being myself. And it's really hard. And I feel really bad for Jack because he doesn't have this and he's a very social person.
So trying to find whatever that balance, that's like the hard thing I try to find. I think Covid made me realize how difficult the holidays really were on me because we had two years in a row where we weren't allowed to do big Christmassy things for that four week period. And I was like, oddly enough, I feel so much better.
[00:24:04] Speaker A: So weird.
[00:24:05] Speaker B: I feel amazing. I always say to Jack, I'm like, this is one of my best Christmas Christmases ever.
[00:24:11] Speaker A: You know what I was burnt out by? There was like all of the Christmas quizzes that you had to do like on zoom with people. Did you have that?
[00:24:17] Speaker B: We did a couple.
Yeah. Me being me. I was like, yeah, I'll do a.
[00:24:23] Speaker A: Couple of them in the background, tell you when you're wrong.
[00:24:28] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That doesn't sound like me.
[00:24:33] Speaker A: Yeah. But it's like interesting, isn't it, how that almost ends up being like a double edged sword sort. At least I think it still feels like that for me, like even like this Christmas I think I'm gonna try and, or have probably even started trying to be like, oh, actually I'm gonna need to go off and have some time on my own or actually need to do X, Y and Z. Try to advocate for that. Which I think is good. But I still, maybe because I've, I'm still like very recently diagnosed, still feel stress around asking or saying I'm going to do stuff a certain way.
Like for example, we all often have family friends or family members over throughout the period. And I said to my parents, like, oh, by the way, I might just kind of take myself off at one of them just to kind of go watch a film on my own or something. And I was one, like, oh, I'm really glad that I said that. But two, I was like, oh my God, I feel so guilty and so terrible because now it sounds like I don't want to be with people and I, I don't want to do things. So it's like that double edged sword side of it. It's like, is it actually better just to put up a mask in that moment rather than to do the awkward social thing and go and be alone?
[00:25:50] Speaker B: Yeah, from a psychological perspective it is better to advocate for yourself and take that moment alone than to contribute to masking burnout. Because that takes so much more out of you psychologically and physically, just like physiologically.
But it's still hard because it's like advocating for yourself is like any skill, you know what I mean? So what you're really doing for your first holidays as diagnosed autistic is you're trying to implement a new skill that you've been working on throughout the year and obviously a bit longer than that.
So you're just adding another thing to your to do list. And it might be harder this year than it will be next year, you know what I mean?
Because it's just like any skill that you practice and this is probably the most social time of the year where you might feel the most weight of the expectations that are on you. And so it's not just like you're doing a boundary at work or socially. There's a lot of emotions tied to the boundaries that you're setting and the advocacy that you're doing for yourself.
[00:26:54] Speaker A: Yes. And also again, comparison to say what I've done previous years or been able to do previous years, maybe it's different like this time around and I don't think it will be too different because I think as a family, like we're all reasonably chilled out anyway and are often like, oh, let's just have a chill one and just not do much and watch a film or whatever.
I think as a family we probably feel expectations in a sense to like go out and do stuff, whereas we would all probably just like be chilling out.
So I think like I'm very lucky in that sense in that it is a flexible and supportive environment, you know, like no one's going to like shout at me or be angry if I'm like, oh, I'm just going to go and watch tv.
So yeah, so I'm very kind of lucky in that sense. But it will be interesting to see if I'm like comparing at all or if it's actually better than like what I have almost like built up in my head. Almost like the opposite.
[00:27:52] Speaker B: If you build up permission for yourself before the actual day and for the experience, experiences are probably easier.
Like, try to integrate that permission. Don't try to add it on the day. You know what I mean?
[00:28:06] Speaker A: Ooh, okay. Yes. Oh, I want. We need to talk about that more in the next episode.
[00:28:10] Speaker B: Okay, sounds good.
[00:28:11] Speaker A: So we're going to build Christmas stress plans.
[00:28:14] Speaker B: Oh, exciting.
[00:28:16] Speaker A: Okay, great.
[00:28:17] Speaker B: So this is like our, our intake sessions to build our. This is our.
[00:28:21] Speaker A: What's wrong?
[00:28:22] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a four.
Yeah.
What are your challenges? What are your strengths?
[00:28:28] Speaker A: What can we, what can we going to plan out our intervention next time as a super fun final Christmas episode?
Well, we wouldn't be psychologists otherwise would.
[00:28:41] Speaker B: We have to happen?
[00:28:45] Speaker A: Right. So I really want us to talk about, like, emotional labor, invisible work, and like gendered expectations, especially around this time of year, I suppose, like, especially relevant to, to women, I guess, parents, perhaps more more generally, maybe eldest daughters, caregivers and so on. So the kind of labor that comes along kind of at Christmas time, which we've kind of touched on already, but there tend to be kind of quite a lot of like, gender scripts I think around, like, who makes the, the holidays and, and who, like you say, like always keeps the magic alive. And there can be a lot of tension of carrying the logistical and kind of emotional load around Christmas. So I just want to get your thoughts, Kristen, what are your thoughts kind of on this?
[00:29:38] Speaker B: I have many and surprise. I think what annoys me the most is that I didn't think we would still be here in 2025.
So we've got like the traditional gendered scripts that still happen where you've got all the women doing the emotional labor of making Christmas, Christmas special for everyone, usually besides themselves, and the cognitive labor of hosting, getting everyone's presence, blah, blah. And then also still not being looked after. You know, maybe their Christmas stocking is forgotten. Maybe they don't have a present.
Maybe. I've seen so many videos like these over the years of couples like our age where this is still happening. But then you also have like a lot of, for example, millennial men are really great with this kind of stuff. And like, obviously there's still a lot of gendered scripts, but they're much more equitable in their relationships. But then when you go to the Christmas parties, you hear, oh, so and so guy is just so good. He helps her with everything. Did you know he actually did blah, blah, blah. And you're just like, are you kidding me? Like, he's a parent as well. Like, this should just be like the nor everyone should be doing it. And it's just like and you see.
And I've seen it happen, but, you know, not in my family necessarily, but I've been places where I see it and I see it a lot online, where all the women are in the kitchen cooking, but they're also talking and having a blast and listening to music. And there's a lot of life in there. And then there's just men just sitting in front of the tv, completely silent with no connection.
And you're just like, yeah.
[00:31:15] Speaker A: And it was.
[00:31:16] Speaker B: But it's just like, okay, well, male loneliness epidemic. What? You don't speak to each other when you have the chance to all be around each other, go into the room with the life, with the communication, with all of that, if that's something that you're interested in. And those, like, those gendered roles, they hurt everyone, right? Because firstly, the women have all this labor that they're expected to do, and then the men just don't have this social connection that all of this is all about.
And then they also just, like, don't fulfill a lot of shit they should be doing anyway. So those are my thoughts on gendered expectations. I mean, I have a lot more. But this is only a small set. I could do a whole episode on this alone.
[00:31:59] Speaker A: But I think as well, like, I don't know, like, I wonder because of, I guess, the holiday, like, traditions and like, falling, like, when you go home, you kind of fall back into these very, like, familiar, like, family roles that perhaps that is one of the, I guess, spaces or times that ends up being really hard to, like, change or make different.
Not that it should, like it should be. Yeah. But it's interesting how we fall back naturally into roles even for, like, me as, like, say, being like, the daughter or whatever, and you kind of.
Yeah. Take on that role or that part of your identity that you remember from, like, holidays in the past, so to speak. But there's definitely. So, yeah, like, I can see, like, always say after Christmas dinner, it will always be like, all the. The women in the kitchen doing all the washing up.
[00:32:59] Speaker B: No.
[00:32:59] Speaker A: And then, like. And then like, my dad, like, setting up the TV show that we want to watch or something like that, which has a place, like, it has a. Has a role.
[00:33:09] Speaker B: It's a little easier.
[00:33:10] Speaker A: A little bit easier.
He does very well with. With. With the dishwasher. The dishwasher is his thing.
But it is interesting how that you.
Yeah.
Those roles are still very, very blatant and obvious.
[00:33:25] Speaker B: Well, they're so heavily ingrained. They're so heavily socialized into us that especially, like a lot of people, when you go home over the holidays, if your family is very traditional like that in that specific sense or other senses, a lot of people don't want to rock the boat. You know what I mean? Yeah. So, like, imagine if you just decided to go sit in the living room while your dad was setting up the tv, or if you were just like, I'll pick out the movie or whatever, and you just left.
[00:33:54] Speaker A: I feel really bad.
[00:33:55] Speaker B: Yeah, well, that's the thing.
[00:33:57] Speaker A: But I think it's. I don't know if it's also partially because of me. I feel awkward because in that space, like, sat in the lounge or whatever, like, with the TV on, I feel like there's something I should be doing. Like, I feel like I should be trying to make a conversation or talk to people or talk to family I haven't seen in a while. I'm just like. I don't really know, like, what to talk about at this point. So I'll just go into the kitchen and, like, keep my hands busy and have something to do.
[00:34:19] Speaker B: No, I get that. I totally get that. And I'm also one of those people where if I know somebody else is, like, cleaning or working and I'm just sitting on the couch, I can't do that. I, like, physically need to be. But I don't know. That's. That's obviously probably something that is socialized into us as well.
And a few years ago, so, like, I'll do, like, Thanksgiving every once in a while. And I did a really big Thanksgiving with all friends and stuff like that. And I had a couple friends staying over and me. And, like, it was super gendered. But that's also because that they were, like, my friends who I wanted to come hang out with me while I was cooking the meal. And I also trusted them with my process, which there are not very many people I will trust with the Thanksgiving meal. And so, like, great. Yeah, we get to have a couple Proseccos while we're making the Thanksgiving meal. Spending, like, what, eight hours in the kitchen, Right. Cooking. We had this great meal, and then the guys just went off to drink whiskey. And literally, you should have seen.
And it was me and a friend that do not put up with this kind of shit. You should have seen the explosion that happened, because. What are you.
[00:35:32] Speaker A: What do you mean?
[00:35:33] Speaker B: We just spent eight hours cooking, and you're just gonna fuck off and leave us?
[00:35:38] Speaker A: Did they even, like, clear the table?
[00:35:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I think. I think the. The equivalent was bringing dishes into the kitchen. And putting it on the counter, as if that's anything that tends to be. I'm sorry, what? So, yeah, that did not go over very well.
And I've never had an issue since.
[00:35:56] Speaker A: Especially when, like, there's only two. Was there only two of you?
[00:36:00] Speaker B: Yeah, because I think they were the only ones staying at our house. Everyone else was kind of. And that's also a thing.
[00:36:05] Speaker A: I don't.
[00:36:05] Speaker B: I don't know if it's like a.
A British thing, but I can't imagine leaving somebody's house with there still being, like, a mess after they're cooking. And that's something I've only experienced here. I've never experienced it. And so I'm not trying to generalize. I'm just saying it's only something I've experienced.
[00:36:22] Speaker A: I hear. I think it's very, like.
I think it varies so much because I'm similar to, like, you. I'm like, I need to help or I need to be. At least offer, like, can I do this or want to. I always want to, like, leave something. Kind of how I found it. Do you know what I mean?
Whereas, like, I even find, like, when Matt's friends, for example, come over to stay, I'm always so aware of, like, who are the ones that, like, make the bed, like, before they leave and who are the ones that just leave everything, like, everywhere.
[00:36:53] Speaker B: Yeah. And I'm like, how.
[00:36:55] Speaker A: It's like, what people can imagine, like, leaving something in. In that way. So I. I think it just. I think it. It shifts in a lot depending on, I assume, just, like, how you've been brought up.
[00:37:12] Speaker B: Yeah, I think so.
[00:37:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:14] Speaker B: Yeah. Because, I mean, I don't think anyone in my family could imagine leaving, especially with a mess. It's one thing if there's four of you for dinner, right? And then they just leave. That's. That's one thing. But if it's like, 15 people, it's like, okay, and. And, you know, they felt really bad, right, that they didn't cross their mind. Obviously, everyone had been having wine and, like, all this kind of stuff. I don't give a. If the gender roles are so ingrained that they fight through alcohol. That's where your problem is.
[00:37:46] Speaker A: So.
[00:37:48] Speaker B: So, like, they understood, like, the fact that we even had to get mad about it is a problem, like, let alone not engaging, like, not helping.
[00:37:58] Speaker A: So there were, like, two of. Two of you and, like, 10 of them.
[00:38:03] Speaker B: No, no, no, no. It was like, a bunch of people came over, and then only, like, one couple stayed with us.
Because they were staying. They were staying over, but everyone else had just left, maybe brought their stuff to the kitchen.
That's one thing. And then it's like, okay, well, we have to put stuff into the fridge. Like, at the very least, like, we have to put food away because we can't just leave it out because then we're gonna waste all of it.
So, like, that alone takes time.
[00:38:31] Speaker A: It's like a skill. Tupperware, food appropriately.
[00:38:35] Speaker B: It is.
[00:38:36] Speaker A: It is. It is always fun on Christmas.
[00:38:39] Speaker B: Oh, yes. And some people do know how to weaponize incompetence. That.
[00:38:43] Speaker A: That's what I was just thinking about.
[00:38:48] Speaker B: What do you think about it?
I think I've gone on a little rant.
[00:38:53] Speaker A: No, I've just been thinking. I think.
I think my family is kind of interesting because there's a lot of women and there's probably only, like, two men on Christmas kind of versus the one two.
Like, I guess. Oh, she's probably not like, five. Five women, but we've always had more women.
Like, the women have always outnumbered the. The guys. So I feel like perhaps those.
The genderedness, if you like, of the different roles you take on, I don't know, for me, almost, like, get.
Maybe don't get seen as much because there's a lot of women supporting women and doing, like, sharing the load together. So it's not like, say, you've got, like, I don't know, three men sitting on the sofa, not doing much or whatever, and, like, one woman carrying all of the load. Like, I could imagine that in a household where the men outnumber the women, that. That would be really challenging and difficult. Kind of more so than in a household, say, like, mine, where there are a lot of women around. Does that. Does that make sense?
[00:40:06] Speaker B: It makes sense. Like, logically, I can see your point.
Like, I logically see your point. You are sharing the load, right? You're sharing the emotional, cognitive, even physical labor of cooking and doing all this stuff. Why does it have to be gendered? Like, it just doesn't make sense to me. It just doesn't make any sense. Like, it's so.
[00:40:25] Speaker A: But I think maybe that's why, like, I don't think about it as much. It's almost a bit more hidden to me in. In a way. But then I do also see and. Yeah, see and very much feel, like, the.
The stress and the expectations that my mum would have around this time of year. And I think she's, like, worked quite hard to try and let some of those things go, like, say, by, like, my sister and my dad kind of taking over, like, the Christmas dinner duties and things and kind of giving her space to chill. But she struggles to do the chill. But there have been kind of Christmases before where I literally remember my mum would have, like, finished all the cooking, served out all the food, and then she's suddenly horrifically ill and needs to go and spend the rest of the day in bed. Oh.
Because there's been that much of the build up. Do you know what I mean?
[00:41:22] Speaker B: I also think that, like, we talk a lot about women putting pressure on themselves to do this, but I think a lot of that is because that's where women get so much validation and support from their family. That's when you get a lot of thank yous and a lot of this is amazing. Like, this food's amazing. How this is so well organized. What a great gift. And I think that this is where women. And I'm not saying this is the case in your family. It just made me think of other stories I've been hearing.
Like, where women can get their appreciation from is like, these expectations. So it's like, yeah, we put the expectations on ourselves, but do we. Like, these are probably socialized into us a little bit as ways that we can. It's a performance to some extent. Right. How we can perform, get the, you know, appreciation that, you know, you deserve. Probably not as much as you really deserve, but then, like, going above and beyond and burning yourself out to do it year after year. And then, like, I could understand why if somebody tries to take that, like, it is a, you know, a burden to a certain extent, taking that off of you, it can feel like something's being taken away from you because that's your thing of how you get validation and it's part of your identity and it's how you get appreciation. So I can understand how that would be kind of stressful and difficult.
[00:42:41] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like it's a whole process kind of in itself, isn't it? And it's managing that change as well. Yeah.
Something I wanted to touch on before we, I guess, kind of come to an end is something that I think is very stressful for a lot of people around this time of year is like loneliness and almost like, I guess, in a sense, like grief and like missing, say, people who aren't around at this time of year. Because I think it can become, like, very obvious, you know, when you've got, like, everybody together, or perhaps even in your case, when it's like you're not able to be with your family or even people who just don't have a family to go to at all. I think this time of year can be so hard. We've kind of been discussing mostly these very social scenarios that a lot of people kind of won't have at this time.
So this kind of loneliness can really I guess intensify when there's so much like togetherness I suppose and it can even end up being things like social comparison. So seeing all of like the perfect families or traditions that maybe we don't have that other people had or those relationships that have changed or the grief that like can really intensely come back at this time of year.
But yeah. What are your thoughts on, on, on that. Kristen, is there anything you want to share?
[00:44:13] Speaker B: Well, I have a lot, unfortunately a lot of experience with this topic. Firstly just living away from my family and the amount of like death that my in laws side of the family have experienced within a very short period of time. So I know for sure from my experience and from the experience of like, especially like my in laws it's never more obvious who's not there when you're all together, right? Because like we were talking about is like especially like with families who have been this together for so long that people fill roles, right? Somebody's the person who makes everyone laugh. Here's the person that you usually talk to. Here's the person who brings this side dish that they're really known for. They get excited for it and like you know, it's just like you can, you could just like tell who's not there. And that sometimes is the glue that holds these groups together. So when there's suddenly like three, four people missing in a family setting that is a big difference. And so I think that can really make things feel more lonely or more just like hit a bit sharper.
Because even if it's not broader family situations but you're getting a lot of nostalgia which brings back memories. And so with these memories of key people in your life, of course that's going to make it even more obvious. The part of the memories that are so easily activated by these smells, by these sensory experiences, they're not there. So I could see why like this grief can just feel so much more potent at this time of year.
[00:45:46] Speaker A: Definitely. I think the main one for me is, is like my grandma, like when she passed away and she was such like a key like member of you know, well the family and the Christmas and making it like because she did so much of the food and would bake the cakes and everything. So it's like there'd be those very specific, very sensory things that bring you back. And I remember for the first few years, it was really, really hard.
Christmas just felt really sad.
But I think kind of you slowly start to, I think, use it as a.
Like those, I suppose, sensory. If you like memories then start to be something that you like to connect back with. I guess when maybe they don't feel as difficult to try and.
Or as difficult to experience or as raw, it starts to be like, actually, this is a nice connection back to how we used to do things or memories that you had.
So I think it can be nice in that sense. But I remember it was. It was so hard, like, especially for my mum, like, around that time of year, because it's very, I think, obvious for her because she would end up again, like, taking on the role.
The roles that, like, my grandma had. There's almost like this handling of the baton, but not one that has been, like, explicit.
Yeah. Not one that you wanted to, or.
Yeah, yeah. Like an unexpected.
[00:47:18] Speaker B: Yeah.
But then, like, why does that handover happen so explicitly to somebody else instead of just, like, being absorbed into the family?
[00:47:29] Speaker A: Yeah. No, you're so right.
[00:47:31] Speaker B: And, like, it's so interesting how we just, like, hand over roles instead of. I just think it's. It's like part of, like, this kind of, like, compartmentalizing world that we live in where it's like, okay, we need to match this role for somebody else. And that's so much pressure.
That's so much pressure. You know what I mean?
[00:47:52] Speaker A: Yeah, totally.
Totally.
[00:47:56] Speaker B: So I. I think, like, this baton gets. You say baton. I say baton.
The baton. Yeah.
I don't know.
[00:48:08] Speaker A: Past the pasta.
I don't know anymore.
[00:48:13] Speaker B: So this, I think, like, the reason. The reason. But baton gets passed so readily.
[00:48:20] Speaker A: I feel like baton is a person.
[00:48:23] Speaker B: What a weird thing. Oh, no. I hope nobody's listening. Has the word baton.
[00:48:29] Speaker A: Hi, Baton.
[00:48:31] Speaker B: Hello. Baton is like. I think it brings it back to, like, the gender roles. Right. And, like, these family dynamics that are so ingrained and a lot of, like, the traditional and heavy quotes. So in, like, in reality, these more colonized approaches to the family, nuclear family, is because we just have roles, not people sometimes. And so, like, these roles pass on. But it's not even just that. I think that there's a reason the music we love when we're younger, so especially in, like, our early to late teens, is. Remains in our minds, is, like, some of our favorite music of all time is because like, because of the connections we're making because of, like, from a neurological point of view, how much information we're taking in and how much we're learning at that point. The roles we have within our family also get so ingrained because that's really where we're learning all of our information. Does that make sense?
[00:49:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:49:34] Speaker B: And so I.
I think that, like, when you go home for the holidays, you kind of, like, slip back into your old roles, whether that's, like, with your siblings or, like, parents. And I know 100% that happens in my household, like, who's going to be the peacekeeper? Who's going to, like, make trouble? Who's going to call out what's going on? Who's going to. You know. And, like, especially with, like, relationship dynamics, I definitely think the holidays bring back, like, the patterns from your childhood, whether they're good or bad.
[00:50:05] Speaker A: Totally. Totally. And it can feel. And again, there's like, a positive and nice, like, warm side to that. And then there's also, again, like, the reality side of that in, like, falling out over little things or, I don't know, getting certain things that you're doing, being picked at or judged. It's like, this is just what I do or whatever.
So, like, whereas before, I guess, you can just be yourself in your own house and then suddenly, like, your behaviors are kind of on show and ready to be picked apart.
[00:50:38] Speaker B: Yeah.
So true.
[00:50:40] Speaker A: I was gonna say, I've been thinking about, I guess, in this kind of family dynamic section, and, like, when we were talking about the gender dynamics as well, I watched a film the other day. Have you seen the Roses? With Benedict Cumberbatch and Olivia Coleman?
[00:50:56] Speaker B: No.
[00:50:57] Speaker A: I think it's a remake of an older film, but it's not specifically Christmassy. But they basically swap roles in a sense. So Benedict Cumberbatch basically loses his job and ends up becoming the caregiver in the home. And then Olivia Colman kind of starts a really successful business.
And it's just really interesting to see how, like, the family dynamics shift and how.
Yeah. The roles they take on are different and how they both kind of envy one another for, like, the. The roles that they're in. So I would highly recommend it as, like, a film. Interesting. It was very good. I think it's on Disney plus. Okay.
But that I remember when we were watching it, and we were probably only like, 10, 15 minutes in, and I said to Matt, like, this is a film about the patriarchy.
And he was like, what? How did you get that from, like, the first 15 minutes. And I was like, were you not listening at all?
[00:52:03] Speaker B: Do you not see it everywhere?
[00:52:05] Speaker A: Yeah, I do recommend. It was fun.
[00:52:08] Speaker B: I'm gonna have to do that. The roses.
[00:52:11] Speaker A: Yeah, the roses.
[00:52:12] Speaker B: Okay, I can remember that one. So half the things you tell me I don't remember, but I can remember the roses.
[00:52:17] Speaker A: Well, this was fun. So next time we're going to be moving from stress and we're going to be kind of starting to, I guess, think about how we can almost try and design or create kind of a holiday season that works for us or even thinking about how can we advocate for ourselves, how can we make sure we're balancing kind of the socialization boundaries, rest, joy and so on.
So, yeah, have a think, I guess around what the stress might be that comes up for you kind of around this time of year. And then next time me and Kristen are going to chat about, I guess, our own plans and hopefully give some ideas about what you might be thinking, might be able to think about as you move into the intense holiday period.
[00:53:02] Speaker B: Yes, that's a good idea. We're going to give you a little formulation. Oh, my God. My words have just stopped working. We're going to give you a little formulation.
[00:53:11] Speaker A: There we go.
And also come back next time to hear hopefully this means you have to do it. Kristen. Yes. Kristen's review of my Christmas playlist.
[00:53:19] Speaker B: Yes, I'll do it this time, guys. We only had three days between recordings this time, so this time I don't know when we're recording our next episode, but it'll be more than three days from now.
[00:53:28] Speaker A: Yeah, you'll have plenty of time. No excuses.
[00:53:30] Speaker B: No excuses for me.
[00:53:31] Speaker A: While we're declaring myself for some like, shade and dislike.
[00:53:36] Speaker B: No, I would never shade people's choice of music. I'll just say whether it's my taste or not.
[00:53:43] Speaker A: I'll be ready for it.
[00:53:46] Speaker B: Oh, God. My voice is about to go again.
Okay, guys, well, before my voice completely gives up on me and so that we can go do our day jobs, we're going to end the episode now. I somehow made that feel so awkward.
But thank you guys so much for listening. As always, we probably left you with more questions than answers, but that is the point.
We love digging into the messy undercurrents of holiday stress with you guys. If you have any thoughts, any questions, we want to hear it. Please drop a comment, message us, shout us into the void if you really need to. But tagging us is way more effective for. For us.
So definitely get in touch if there's any other topics you want us to get into. If you like this episode, don't forget to follow, like and rate whatever your platform allows. And tell your friends you can find all of our links on the but why Instagram page. Please head into the bio for everything. And remember, the first step to understanding is asking but why.
[00:54:53] Speaker A: Sam.
